CL like BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

CL like BAB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dantedarkstar
11-28-03, 09:13 AM As everybody know, spellcasters can't multiclass if they don't want to suck at spellcasting. Cleric/Wizard combo turns out very weak, while Mystic Theurge is of debatable balance. On the other hand fighting classes don't suffer any such troubles.
Why not make things better ?

Fighting classes may multiclass w/o problem, because main ability of them adds up from different classes (BAB), which is not the case with casting classes.
Let us say that there is single Caster Level, like there is single Base Attack Bonus (no Barbarian BAB and Rogue BAB). All spellcasting goes with this Caster Level.
Caster Level progression:
Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer - full CL progression (+1/level)
Bard - 3/4 CL progression (+3/4 levels, like BAB for rogues, clerics, bards, etc.)
Ranger, Paladin - 1/2 CL progression (+1/2 levels)
Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk - no CL progression (there should be feat that gives all your nonspellcasting classes 1/2 CL progression, we can name this feat Eldricht Knight, and it works retroactively)

Now, let's make number and level of spell slots available the property tied to Caster Level, not any given class, just like number of attacks is property tied strictly to BAB, not level of any class that contributed.
Let's take Wizard spell slot progression and say that if you have total Caster Level X, you have spell slots like level X wizard. This requires to add line 0 for the progression, without any 1st level slots, only cantrips (this is for 1st level Bards).

Lastly, to learn any spell, you need to achieve certain CLASS level in CERTAIN class. Like 1st level Wizard can have Magic Missiles, regardless of CL. For simplicity's sake let's assume that class level required equals to double spell level minus 1. Thus Sor/Wiz 7th level spell require 13th level Wizard or Sorcerer to learn. Cantrips/Orisons require 1st level in appropriate class (not -1).
However, Bard spells should require class level equal to triple spell level minus 1 (rougly, to avoid availability of spell before availability of appropriate level slot), while Paladins/Rangers should require class level equal to quadruple spell level minus 2 (for same reasons).

This way, pure Wizard stay the same as it is, while multiclass with other class is still viable.
Clr 10/Wiz 10 has SAME NUMBER OF SLOTS and SAME CL as pure Wiz 20, but they can cast only spells up to level 5th of both classes. However, given even 9th level slots, they can have nice metamagics applied to these spells and thier CL don't make them useless against other magicians.
Bards on level 1 have CL 0, which still gives them 0-level slots, so they can cast cantrips (because spell availability is based on class level, not caster level). Whenever CL is important for such bards, assume 1st level caster.
Rangers/Paladins get first spells at level 2 in this system (because at level 1 they have only orison slots and . They also have orison slots (because slots are result of CL, not any given class), but since they don't have orisons on spell lists, they don't have any spells at level 1

Such system allows free and fair multiclassing of spellcasters, just like fighting classes can. I would say, this system is really compatibile with 3.0+ multiclassing system. "each class has own CL" is not compatibile with 3.0/3.5 - it's rather relic of 2ed, transferred to 3.0 without making it compatibile with multiclassing system.

Note: Since we treat CL like BAB, at epic levels, you don't get CL according to class, but you get Epic Caster Level bonus (+1/2 levels), which DON'T GIVE SPELL SLOT PROGRESSION (just like BAB don't give additional attacks). This would mean that ISC shouldn't require "normal max level for class", and it would be only mean to gain spell slots at epic (even if you didn't finish CL 20 progression before epic you never will, just like you won't ever get 4 attacks if you didn't get BAB 16+ before epic).
SR progression at epic need to be revised to account for low CL progression at epic (half HD or class level after 20th count for SR). Also epic monster's SR need to be accordingly lowered.

What are your thoughts about such system ?
All comments welcome.
William Coburn
11-28-03, 01:27 PM You'r elemnating one of the prime weaknesses of the caster. The caster dosen't need this kind of strength to be powerfull, the fighters do. BAB vs. CL is one of the few strengths the combat classes have in the higer levels.
Also from a role playing point of view (Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlace, or any other published D&D, it may be diffent in your world) it makes little sense. Each of the casters depicts a diffrent way of casting, not just diffent modes of the same thing. It's like saying I can make oil, and I can make water, I should be able to mix them.
Draco Argentum
11-28-03, 08:15 PM Link (http://www.totalrpgs.com/vcl.html)

That link is a similar system. Aside from the 18/2 multiclass no major holes have been found.
gradea
11-28-03, 08:35 PM problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night

BAB 19/14/9/4
CL 10
Draco Argentum
11-28-03, 09:12 PM Originally posted by gradea
problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night

BAB 19/14/9/4
CL 10

With all patches for MC casters you should not use a second patch at the same time. So don't try to use the EK, AT or MT and another MC fix at the same time, its obviously not going to work.
dantedarkstar
12-01-03, 07:40 AM Originally posted by gradea
problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night

BAB 19/14/9/4
CL 10

So ? I don't really see a problem here. He still has only 1st level spells. Yes, he does have slots as 10th level wizard, but can only learn 1st level spells.

I don't find it unbalancing. You burn one level and one feat to gain ability to cast some 1st level spells (metamagicked if you burn even more feats).

Look at "Normal" Eldricht Knight:

lev 8 wiz, lev 2 ftr, lev 10 EK

BAB 16/11/6/1 (3 worse)
CL 17 (7 better, plus 8 spell levels more to cast)

And HE CAST SPELLS AS 18th LEVEL WIZARD, meaning 9th level spells.

-----

Draco Argentum
gradea was referring to feat that would make all nonspellcaster levels contribute +1CL/2 levels. I just made suggestion this feat could be called "eldricht knight".

-----

William Coburn
But this doesn't give straight casters any more kick they already have. It only allows to multiclass with sensible benefits.
Look at Mystic Theurge and Eldricht Knight. They are just "multiclass patch" classes with no special abilities at all on thier own. This system gives a boot to such strange artifacts.

If Fighter/Barbarian don't need a PrC to be viable and powerful, why Wizard/Cleric would ?
I would rather eliminate problem than make patches that only make it less relevant.
dantedarkstar
12-02-03, 09:23 AM Big Bad Evil Bump :bump:
wdarkk
12-02-03, 12:45 PM The "1/2 caster level at Epic" cuts casters in half even with revised SR since the _damage_ progression is still loused (remember Enhance Spell exists and is often taken). You can't compensate by reducing HP since that doesn't actually change anything unless you make everything so weak as to be killed in one hit.
dantedarkstar
12-02-03, 01:52 PM Hmm... yes, that's probably a bit small problem. But it's hardly cutting in half. Rather cutting gains by half, which means it only approaches "half power" as the levels increase.

But what about feat

Epic Spell Power [Epic]
Benefit: Your Caster Level increases by 1, except for purposes of spell slots.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times and it stacks.

Hmm ? Epic Prowess for wizards ?
And actually this may make SR reduction unnecessary.
wdarkk
12-02-03, 06:18 PM You do realize that in order to catch up using that feat, casters would have to spend 3/4 or so of their feats on Epic Spell Power.

That's a _large_ opportunity cost. That's a lot of Improved Spell Capacities I didn't buy.

I still dislike that change. It's hard enough to break through all the resistances. Leave Epic CL progression alone.

IMHO all you really should do is create this feat:

Magic Synergy
Benefit: When determining caster level (but not spells known), add together all levels of classes with their own spell list.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells from two or more spell lists (eg Cleric and Wizard)

It's simple and elegant if I do say so myself.
dantedarkstar
12-03-03, 07:14 AM This would fix the problem as much as MT.

I wasn't trying to patch up current system, but rework it so no such patch would be necessary.

This feat of yours of course makes multiclasses far more efficient, but still nowhere near the way my system does.

It's a bit matter of preference. If you want to fix results or causes.

As for epic CL and my system:
Well, fighters don't get thier BAB. I really fail to see why casters should get all spellcasting.

There's still the problem of Ftr20/Wiz20 being better than Wiz20/Ftr20.
Well, depending on interpretation of Bonus Feats and allowance of epic feats this may not be best example.
Let's take Pal20/Wiz20 and Wiz20/Pal20. First is obviously better, because the only differences between the two are strong save (Pal20/Wiz20 - Fort, Wiz20/Pal20 - Will) and BAB (Pal20/Wiz20 - +30/+25/+20/+15, Wiz20/Pal20 - +20/+15). Ah yes, depending on interpretation of Bonus Feats, the first may have perhaps better feats from Wiz).

If we treat BAB and CL alike, such discrepancies wouldn't arise.
And I'm not really sure if epic casters need that all that CL.
wdarkk
12-03-03, 09:07 AM I'm sure they do.

There's just too much resistance to punch through. Plus you make Enhance Spell almost automatically worthless.
dantedarkstar
12-03-03, 09:26 AM Maybe I'm just Evil, Vile wizard-nerf maniac ? :smirk:

Oh wait... I'm actually wizard-maniac... :angel:

ELH monsters are too strong for thier CR against normal (not min-maxed) people anyway. And of course Spell Resistance spell would be capped at 32.
Thelon Fairblade
12-03-03, 02:21 PM Wait... the original idea is being lost in a discussion of Epic isues. I don't play Epic, never have, and likely never will (since the *most* frequently my group ever meets is every two weeks for no more than 4 hours).

I'm interested in more discussion of the base system in levels 1 to 20.

Furthering that dicussion, I will say that this system really only applies when the campaign concept allows it to. If the concept of magic is that it all comes from the same source, then different methods of manipulating it should lend some synergy to each other. If the concept isthat Divine and Arcane magics are totally different, from different sources (perhaps gods and the mineral emanations), then it doesn't work.

I think the progression should be knocked back a step; this should be synergy, not raw power. (This would also allow the retention of the "MC patch" classes and similiar builds like Spell swords, Geomancers, etc.) You could do it on a class by class basis, like:

Sorc and Wiz CLs are additive 1 for 1
Cleric and Druid CLs are additive 1 for 1
Cleric/Druid and S/W CLs are 3/4
Bard CL is 1/2 to both cleric and S/W
Paladin is 1/2 to cleric only
Ranger is 1/2 to druid only
Cleric is full to paladin
Druid is full to ranger.

.... or on a spell by spell basis:
Dispel Magic is on Druid, Cleric, and S/W lists... all CLs stack
Magic Missile is on S/W list... S/W levels stack, all others 1/2
Animate Dead is an [Evil] spell... paladin levels don't stack.
Ranger is 1/2
dantedarkstar
12-04-03, 06:28 AM Well, in my opinion, divine spellcasting and arcane spellcasting aren't THAT different.

Of course you can say that casting arcane is like solving equation, and divine is like convincing your teacher to solve it, and then yes, perhaps CL shouldn't synergize.

But since hacking someone with huge warhammer and shooting someone with bow over 300ft synergize in 100%, I think we can make similiar CL generalization.

Remember that ability to gain/learn level X spells, depend only CLASS level, not CL. So Wiz 2/Clr 18 would still be able to only learn 1st level Sor/Wiz spells (althrough casts it at CL 20 and he could metamagic them up to 9th level slots if he wanted, since he does have that high slots).

One more remark (I don't exactly know if everyone caught it): you get ONE set of spell slots, derived from CL. So Clr10/Wiz10 don't have different spell slots for wizard and cleric spells.

I only recently realized a problem there though. What ability should earn you bonus spell slots ?

The only solution I can think of right now, is that you get bonus spell slots for each class you have, but limited to slot level that you get from this class alone. I know this sounds complicated, but here's examples:
Wiz 20 gets bonus slots from Int, up to level 9th slots (because he got up to level 9 slots from wizard)
Wiz 10/Clr 10 gets bonus slots from Int up to level 5th slots, and bonus slots from Wis up to level 5th slots(because if these classes were only classes he has, he would have level 5 slots in each).

Drat. Not very clean, nor tidy. I will have to think about it yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dantedarkstar 11-28-03, 09:13 AM	As everybody know, spellcasters can't multiclass if they don't want to suck at spellcasting. Cleric/Wizard combo turns out very weak, while Mystic Theurge is of debatable balance. On the other hand fighting classes don't suffer any such troubles. Why not make things better ? Fighting classes may multiclass w/o problem, because main ability of them adds up from different classes (BAB), which is not the case with casting classes. Let us say that there is single Caster Level, like there is single Base Attack Bonus (no Barbarian BAB and Rogue BAB). All spellcasting goes with this Caster Level. Caster Level progression: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer - full CL progression (+1/level) Bard - 3/4 CL progression (+3/4 levels, like BAB for rogues, clerics, bards, etc.) Ranger, Paladin - 1/2 CL progression (+1/2 levels) Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk - no CL progression (there should be feat that gives all your nonspellcasting classes 1/2 CL progression, we can name this feat Eldricht Knight, and it works retroactively) Now, let's make number and level of spell slots available the property tied to Caster Level, not any given class, just like number of attacks is property tied strictly to BAB, not level of any class that contributed. Let's take Wizard spell slot progression and say that if you have total Caster Level X, you have spell slots like level X wizard. This requires to add line 0 for the progression, without any 1st level slots, only cantrips (this is for 1st level Bards). Lastly, to learn any spell, you need to achieve certain CLASS level in CERTAIN class. Like 1st level Wizard can have Magic Missiles, regardless of CL. For simplicity's sake let's assume that class level required equals to double spell level minus 1. Thus Sor/Wiz 7th level spell require 13th level Wizard or Sorcerer to learn. Cantrips/Orisons require 1st level in appropriate class (not -1). However, Bard spells should require class level equal to triple spell level minus 1 (rougly, to avoid availability of spell before availability of appropriate level slot), while Paladins/Rangers should require class level equal to quadruple spell level minus 2 (for same reasons). This way, pure Wizard stay the same as it is, while multiclass with other class is still viable. Clr 10/Wiz 10 has SAME NUMBER OF SLOTS and SAME CL as pure Wiz 20, but they can cast only spells up to level 5th of both classes. However, given even 9th level slots, they can have nice metamagics applied to these spells and thier CL don't make them useless against other magicians. Bards on level 1 have CL 0, which still gives them 0-level slots, so they can cast cantrips (because spell availability is based on class level, not caster level). Whenever CL is important for such bards, assume 1st level caster. Rangers/Paladins get first spells at level 2 in this system (because at level 1 they have only orison slots and . They also have orison slots (because slots are result of CL, not any given class), but since they don't have orisons on spell lists, they don't have any spells at level 1 Such system allows free and fair multiclassing of spellcasters, just like fighting classes can. I would say, this system is really compatibile with 3.0+ multiclassing system. "each class has own CL" is not compatibile with 3.0/3.5 - it's rather relic of 2ed, transferred to 3.0 without making it compatibile with multiclassing system. Note: Since we treat CL like BAB, at epic levels, you don't get CL according to class, but you get Epic Caster Level bonus (+1/2 levels), which DON'T GIVE SPELL SLOT PROGRESSION (just like BAB don't give additional attacks). This would mean that ISC shouldn't require "normal max level for class", and it would be only mean to gain spell slots at epic (even if you didn't finish CL 20 progression before epic you never will, just like you won't ever get 4 attacks if you didn't get BAB 16+ before epic). SR progression at epic need to be revised to account for low CL progression at epic (half HD or class level after 20th count for SR). Also epic monster's SR need to be accordingly lowered. What are your thoughts about such system ? All comments welcome.
William Coburn 11-28-03, 01:27 PM	You'r elemnating one of the prime weaknesses of the caster. The caster dosen't need this kind of strength to be powerfull, the fighters do. BAB vs. CL is one of the few strengths the combat classes have in the higer levels. Also from a role playing point of view (Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlace, or any other published D&D, it may be diffent in your world) it makes little sense. Each of the casters depicts a diffrent way of casting, not just diffent modes of the same thing. It's like saying I can make oil, and I can make water, I should be able to mix them.
Draco Argentum 11-28-03, 08:15 PM	Link (http://www.totalrpgs.com/vcl.html) That link is a similar system. Aside from the 18/2 multiclass no major holes have been found.
gradea 11-28-03, 08:35 PM	problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night BAB 19/14/9/4 CL 10
Draco Argentum 11-28-03, 09:12 PM	Originally posted by gradea problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night BAB 19/14/9/4 CL 10 With all patches for MC casters you should not use a second patch at the same time. So don't try to use the EK, AT or MT and another MC fix at the same time, its obviously not going to work.
dantedarkstar 12-01-03, 07:40 AM	Originally posted by gradea problem, level 1 wizard, 19 fighter with eldrich night BAB 19/14/9/4 CL 10 So ? I don't really see a problem here. He still has only 1st level spells. Yes, he does have slots as 10th level wizard, but can only learn 1st level spells. I don't find it unbalancing. You burn one level and one feat to gain ability to cast some 1st level spells (metamagicked if you burn even more feats). Look at "Normal" Eldricht Knight: lev 8 wiz, lev 2 ftr, lev 10 EK BAB 16/11/6/1 (3 worse) CL 17 (7 better, plus 8 spell levels more to cast) And HE CAST SPELLS AS 18th LEVEL WIZARD, meaning 9th level spells. ----- Draco Argentum gradea was referring to feat that would make all nonspellcaster levels contribute +1CL/2 levels. I just made suggestion this feat could be called "eldricht knight". ----- William Coburn But this doesn't give straight casters any more kick they already have. It only allows to multiclass with sensible benefits. Look at Mystic Theurge and Eldricht Knight. They are just "multiclass patch" classes with no special abilities at all on thier own. This system gives a boot to such strange artifacts. If Fighter/Barbarian don't need a PrC to be viable and powerful, why Wizard/Cleric would ? I would rather eliminate problem than make patches that only make it less relevant.
dantedarkstar 12-02-03, 09:23 AM	Big Bad Evil Bump :bump:
wdarkk 12-02-03, 12:45 PM	The "1/2 caster level at Epic" cuts casters in half even with revised SR since the _damage_ progression is still loused (remember Enhance Spell exists and is often taken). You can't compensate by reducing HP since that doesn't actually change anything unless you make everything so weak as to be killed in one hit.
dantedarkstar 12-02-03, 01:52 PM	Hmm... yes, that's probably a bit small problem. But it's hardly cutting in half. Rather cutting gains by half, which means it only approaches "half power" as the levels increase. But what about feat Epic Spell Power [Epic] Benefit: Your Caster Level increases by 1, except for purposes of spell slots. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times and it stacks. Hmm ? Epic Prowess for wizards ? And actually this may make SR reduction unnecessary.
wdarkk 12-02-03, 06:18 PM	You do realize that in order to catch up using that feat, casters would have to spend 3/4 or so of their feats on Epic Spell Power. That's a _large_ opportunity cost. That's a lot of Improved Spell Capacities I didn't buy. I still dislike that change. It's hard enough to break through all the resistances. Leave Epic CL progression alone. IMHO all you really should do is create this feat: Magic Synergy Benefit: When determining caster level (but not spells known), add together all levels of classes with their own spell list. Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells from two or more spell lists (eg Cleric and Wizard) It's simple and elegant if I do say so myself.
dantedarkstar 12-03-03, 07:14 AM	This would fix the problem as much as MT. I wasn't trying to patch up current system, but rework it so no such patch would be necessary. This feat of yours of course makes multiclasses far more efficient, but still nowhere near the way my system does. It's a bit matter of preference. If you want to fix results or causes. As for epic CL and my system: Well, fighters don't get thier BAB. I really fail to see why casters should get all spellcasting. There's still the problem of Ftr20/Wiz20 being better than Wiz20/Ftr20. Well, depending on interpretation of Bonus Feats and allowance of epic feats this may not be best example. Let's take Pal20/Wiz20 and Wiz20/Pal20. First is obviously better, because the only differences between the two are strong save (Pal20/Wiz20 - Fort, Wiz20/Pal20 - Will) and BAB (Pal20/Wiz20 - +30/+25/+20/+15, Wiz20/Pal20 - +20/+15). Ah yes, depending on interpretation of Bonus Feats, the first may have perhaps better feats from Wiz). If we treat BAB and CL alike, such discrepancies wouldn't arise. And I'm not really sure if epic casters need that all that CL.
wdarkk 12-03-03, 09:07 AM	I'm sure they do. There's just too much resistance to punch through. Plus you make Enhance Spell almost automatically worthless.
dantedarkstar 12-03-03, 09:26 AM	Maybe I'm just Evil, Vile wizard-nerf maniac ? :smirk: Oh wait... I'm actually wizard-maniac... :angel: ELH monsters are too strong for thier CR against normal (not min-maxed) people anyway. And of course Spell Resistance spell would be capped at 32.
Thelon Fairblade 12-03-03, 02:21 PM	Wait... the original idea is being lost in a discussion of Epic isues. I don't play Epic, never have, and likely never will (since the most frequently my group ever meets is every two weeks for no more than 4 hours). I'm interested in more discussion of the base system in levels 1 to 20. Furthering that dicussion, I will say that this system really only applies when the campaign concept allows it to. If the concept of magic is that it all comes from the same source, then different methods of manipulating it should lend some synergy to each other. If the concept isthat Divine and Arcane magics are totally different, from different sources (perhaps gods and the mineral emanations), then it doesn't work. I think the progression should be knocked back a step; this should be synergy, not raw power. (This would also allow the retention of the "MC patch" classes and similiar builds like Spell swords, Geomancers, etc.) You could do it on a class by class basis, like: Sorc and Wiz CLs are additive 1 for 1 Cleric and Druid CLs are additive 1 for 1 Cleric/Druid and S/W CLs are 3/4 Bard CL is 1/2 to both cleric and S/W Paladin is 1/2 to cleric only Ranger is 1/2 to druid only Cleric is full to paladin Druid is full to ranger. .... or on a spell by spell basis: Dispel Magic is on Druid, Cleric, and S/W lists... all CLs stack Magic Missile is on S/W list... S/W levels stack, all others 1/2 Animate Dead is an [Evil] spell... paladin levels don't stack. Ranger is 1/2
dantedarkstar 12-04-03, 06:28 AM	Well, in my opinion, divine spellcasting and arcane spellcasting aren't THAT different. Of course you can say that casting arcane is like solving equation, and divine is like convincing your teacher to solve it, and then yes, perhaps CL shouldn't synergize. But since hacking someone with huge warhammer and shooting someone with bow over 300ft synergize in 100%, I think we can make similiar CL generalization. Remember that ability to gain/learn level X spells, depend only CLASS level, not CL. So Wiz 2/Clr 18 would still be able to only learn 1st level Sor/Wiz spells (althrough casts it at CL 20 and he could metamagic them up to 9th level slots if he wanted, since he does have that high slots). One more remark (I don't exactly know if everyone caught it): you get ONE set of spell slots, derived from CL. So Clr10/Wiz10 don't have different spell slots for wizard and cleric spells. I only recently realized a problem there though. What ability should earn you bonus spell slots ? The only solution I can think of right now, is that you get bonus spell slots for each class you have, but limited to slot level that you get from this class alone. I know this sounds complicated, but here's examples: Wiz 20 gets bonus slots from Int, up to level 9th slots (because he got up to level 9 slots from wizard) Wiz 10/Clr 10 gets bonus slots from Int up to level 5th slots, and bonus slots from Wis up to level 5th slots(because if these classes were only classes he has, he would have level 5 slots in each). Drat. Not very clean, nor tidy. I will have to think about it yet.