Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 09-24-06, 03:48 AM	I have seen the "Shivering Touch" spell being touted as a silver bullet against dragons, in part because of the latter's crap dex score and touch AC. However, something always struck me as odd, but I could never put my finger on it, until I rechecked my DMG... A creature with a dex score of 0 is paralysed. Dragons are immune to paralysis. Wouldn't this mean that a dragon with a dex score of 0 would still be able to move? Thus, the "Shivering Touch" spell would really do little more than lower its AC score by 5 points. Not bad, but a far cry from the "insta-kill" effect it is lauded to be capable of achieving... So who is correct? Am I missing something?:confused:
ravenshrike 09-24-06, 03:44 PM	THey're immune to paralysis from direct effects. Like an assassins death attack. Ability score adjustments would still apply.
Cold Napalm 09-24-06, 04:19 PM	The only way to immune to ability at 0 effects is to not have said ability score...otherwise any ability at 0 makes you helpless or dead in the case of con.
runestar 09-24-06, 10:42 PM	THey're immune to paralysis from direct effects. Like an assassins death attack. Ability score adjustments would still apply. WHere can I find support for this? I mean - paralysis is paralysis, right? Immunity to paralysis should mean a blanket immunity, regardless of how it resulted.:confused: How do you determine which paralysis to block and which to allow? Is there some documentation I have missed? Thanks.:)
jaelis 09-24-06, 11:20 PM	It is a conundrum. The rules are clear that Dex 0 is paralyzed and paralyzed creatures have Dex 0. So either dragons and other creatures immune to paralysis can never have Dex 0, or else we should interpret immunity to paralysis as immunity to magical and natural effects that cause paralysis directly, rather than indirectly. I would lean towards the later. If a dragon were entombed in stone, it would be unable to move and thus be effectively paralyzed. I don't think its immunity would help it in this case. Since the direct effect of shivering touch is Dex damage, which has the indirect effect of paralysis, I would say that shivering touch should work. But it's a DM's call.
FeceMan 09-24-06, 11:35 PM	Immunities (Ex) All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description. Thar she be. Effects that cause paralysis. Following the link... Paralysis Some monsters and spells have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. (Paralysis from toxins is discussed in the Poison section below.) A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs. He may take purely mental actions, such as casting a spell with no components. Paralysis works on the body, and a character can usually resist it with a Fortitude saving throw (the DC is given in the creature’s description). Unlike hold person and similar effects, a paralysis effect does not allow a new save each round. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown. For even further clarification... Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. Because of the nature of D&D, one must assume that, if a specific term is not present, the specific term does not apply to that situation. Yes, a character is paralyzed, but not paralyzed-paralyzed. EDIT: On the plus side, shivering touch is not present in the Spell Compendium--perhaps WotC did away with it.
Xybot 09-24-06, 11:57 PM	Nothing from Frostburn is in Spell Compendium, check the sources for SC on page 285, its not listed. Maybe they are saving a bunch of spells from other books for a Spell Compendium 2?
runestar 09-25-06, 12:11 AM	Because of the nature of D&D, one must assume that, if a specific term is not present, the specific term does not apply to that situation. Yes, a character is paralyzed, but not paralyzed-paralyzed. Actually, in my DMG, it does explicitly state that a creature with 0 dex is paralysed. It actually uses the word "paralysed", I did not come up with the word myself. That was what sparked off the discrepancy in the first place.:P If it did not use said word, there would be no controversy... What about the spell "Freedom of Movement" then?:P
Bopple 09-25-06, 12:15 AM	Well, it's not unknown that they have made of mixed use of game terms and generic terms.
Dheran 09-25-06, 10:12 PM	Nothing from Frostburn is in Spell Compendium, check the sources for SC on page 285, its not listed. Maybe they are saving a bunch of spells from other books for a Spell Compendium 2? I don't think so. WotC just chopped things until they met their page count target. Like all the Wu Jen spells -- they're all missing, as are all the spells from the Complete series that target non-core classes. They even removed the tags for non-core classes from the spells. Shivering Touch is a more powerful spell than most at its level, certainly. But Spell Compendium excludes all the Frostburn spells, so that doesn't say anything about Shivering Touch in particular.
FeceMan 09-25-06, 10:47 PM	Actually, in my DMG, it does explicitly state that a creature with 0 dex is paralysed. It actually uses the word "paralysed", I did not come up with the word myself. That was what sparked off the discrepancy in the first place.:P If it did not use said word, there would be no controversy... What about the spell "Freedom of Movement" then?:P Ah. Maybe it's errated or something. The SRD doesn't say 'paralyzed'. Anyway, we all know that a dragon with 0 DEX actually is paralyzed despite its immunity to paralysis. So, meh.