Clarification on Spells from DotF and PHB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clarification on Spells from DotF and PHB [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jebb X
11-24-03, 08:22 AM Afternoon all,

I need some clarification with certain spells from DotF and from the PHB:

DotF - Bear's Heart:

It says that the range is 20' but then states in the targets "All living allies within 20'". In the description, it mentions "your living allies (one per caster level)..."

Now, does this mean you can cast the spell up to 20' away, and then it affects all your living allies within 20' of that range? Do you have to affect all of the allies up to your caster level, or can you select a fewer number?

that's question one, next up is

DotF - Blessed Aim

It says range 60', and then under targets 60ft spread centred on you. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Shouldn't it say Range: Personal or 0?

finally

PHB - Blade Barrier

Okay, so in the 3.5 they resolve this quite nicely with the curtain effect and giving a specific range. But we play 3.0, and can anyone accurately describe to me what exactly the range and area of effect this spell actually creates?

Vewy Confuzzed.....
Jebb X
11-25-03, 12:46 AM One other thing as well...

Will a break enchantment break a feeblermind spell? The break enchantment spell description seems to allow it, but the feeblemind spell description seems to say no.

:bump:
Bloodtide_the_Red
11-25-03, 01:49 AM Bear's Heart should say Area, rather then target. And it should say 'all living allies within a 20ft radius burst centered on you.

Blessed Aim should also say Area, rather then effect.

The range of both spells is the limit of the radius around you, 20 or 60 feet. The spells cover the whole area, so that's the range they are given. It is not how far away you can create the burst. The burst is always centered on you. There are spells you can cast and have their effect manifest at whatever range you wish, but not theas 'aid' spells.

Blade Barrier. This spell you can create anywhere with in the 100+ feet of you. At the point the willing wall of blades appears or the ring.

I'd have to go with break enchantment not being able to effect feeblemind. Feeblemind lists all the PH spells that can end it's effect. You could use spells from other books, but anything in the PH would be noted. This is a special case...feebemind was 'made' to be tough to get rid off....
Jebb X
11-25-03, 04:26 AM Thanks for the insight. Thus the only question I have left is: Bear's Heart - can you select the allies you want to affect?

The reason is that the cleric / paladin in our group has access to this spell and he wants to make use of it, but, he doesn't want to affect the dwarven warriors they are aiding, because the nonlethal damage that they take at the end of the spell will drop 90% of them.

Can he choose to only select say, 4 of the 9 targets he would normally be able to affect? I would say yes, but the spell is ambiguous (more precisely, it doesn't say).
Rabe
11-25-03, 08:16 AM The reason for the somewhat convoluted wording on many spells is that they wanted to make sure, that all those terms fit with the descriptions of metamagic feats and the rules regarding area spells.
So they needed to define the area as a spread (which allows for certain feats to work upon it and others not), for example, but gave the range as the radius instead of saying "you", to prevent trouble with Persistent Spell (which was neglected in some cases :().

Rabe
Hasses
11-27-03, 08:30 AM I'd also like to know the answer to this question. Does Break enchantment break Feeblemind?
dantedarkstar
11-27-03, 10:38 AM First: Range is <red>how far spell's effects can reach.</red> For area spells, it usually allows to center them anywhere within range, but spell do have fixed point of origin (usually you).
But if you were 5th level caster, and had 600ft range with fireball, then fireball cast at that distance would be cut in half. Only the part of the spread within range actually would appear.
The same apply to all spells (and that's what makes Lightning Bolt even more sucky now - you have both to Widen and Enlarge to get better range, althrough Widening alone will make bolt wider)

If the Bear's Heart description states 'Target' you can select any targets within range. So in other words, you can affect any number of targets within range you consider allies.

In case of Blessed Air I understand it too says 'Target' and also specifies area. This is extremely poor wording, but I can only guess it means you can select any number of targets within 60ft spread.
Does it say it's centered on you ? If no, then you could actually fix it somewhere in the range (althrough you can't affect targets beyond spell's range anyway, so no sense, unless you Enlarge it).

As for Feeblemind vs Break Enchantment, both descriptions do have contradicting statements. However, Feeblemind is more specific (it namely states what works, while BE only vaguely says Enchantmens, Transmutations and Curses) it should take precedence. Either WotC forgot to update Feeblemind description (but BE was in 3.0 already) or they intended to exclude it.
Of course this would mean all noncore spells can't break Feeblemind. You must just houserule either way, because there is only one vague answer I given.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jebb X 11-24-03, 08:22 AM	Afternoon all, I need some clarification with certain spells from DotF and from the PHB: DotF - Bear's Heart: It says that the range is 20' but then states in the targets "All living allies within 20'". In the description, it mentions "your living allies (one per caster level)..." Now, does this mean you can cast the spell up to 20' away, and then it affects all your living allies within 20' of that range? Do you have to affect all of the allies up to your caster level, or can you select a fewer number? that's question one, next up is DotF - Blessed Aim It says range 60', and then under targets 60ft spread centred on you. Isn't that a contradiction in terms? Shouldn't it say Range: Personal or 0? finally PHB - Blade Barrier Okay, so in the 3.5 they resolve this quite nicely with the curtain effect and giving a specific range. But we play 3.0, and can anyone accurately describe to me what exactly the range and area of effect this spell actually creates? Vewy Confuzzed.....
Jebb X 11-25-03, 12:46 AM	One other thing as well... Will a break enchantment break a feeblermind spell? The break enchantment spell description seems to allow it, but the feeblemind spell description seems to say no. :bump:
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-25-03, 01:49 AM	Bear's Heart should say Area, rather then target. And it should say 'all living allies within a 20ft radius burst centered on you. Blessed Aim should also say Area, rather then effect. The range of both spells is the limit of the radius around you, 20 or 60 feet. The spells cover the whole area, so that's the range they are given. It is not how far away you can create the burst. The burst is always centered on you. There are spells you can cast and have their effect manifest at whatever range you wish, but not theas 'aid' spells. Blade Barrier. This spell you can create anywhere with in the 100+ feet of you. At the point the willing wall of blades appears or the ring. I'd have to go with break enchantment not being able to effect feeblemind. Feeblemind lists all the PH spells that can end it's effect. You could use spells from other books, but anything in the PH would be noted. This is a special case...feebemind was 'made' to be tough to get rid off....
Jebb X 11-25-03, 04:26 AM	Thanks for the insight. Thus the only question I have left is: Bear's Heart - can you select the allies you want to affect? The reason is that the cleric / paladin in our group has access to this spell and he wants to make use of it, but, he doesn't want to affect the dwarven warriors they are aiding, because the nonlethal damage that they take at the end of the spell will drop 90% of them. Can he choose to only select say, 4 of the 9 targets he would normally be able to affect? I would say yes, but the spell is ambiguous (more precisely, it doesn't say).
Rabe 11-25-03, 08:16 AM	The reason for the somewhat convoluted wording on many spells is that they wanted to make sure, that all those terms fit with the descriptions of metamagic feats and the rules regarding area spells. So they needed to define the area as a spread (which allows for certain feats to work upon it and others not), for example, but gave the range as the radius instead of saying "you", to prevent trouble with Persistent Spell (which was neglected in some cases :(). Rabe
Hasses 11-27-03, 08:30 AM	I'd also like to know the answer to this question. Does Break enchantment break Feeblemind?
dantedarkstar 11-27-03, 10:38 AM	First: Range is <red>how far spell's effects can reach.</red> For area spells, it usually allows to center them anywhere within range, but spell do have fixed point of origin (usually you). But if you were 5th level caster, and had 600ft range with fireball, then fireball cast at that distance would be cut in half. Only the part of the spread within range actually would appear. The same apply to all spells (and that's what makes Lightning Bolt even more sucky now - you have both to Widen and Enlarge to get better range, althrough Widening alone will make bolt wider) If the Bear's Heart description states 'Target' you can select any targets within range. So in other words, you can affect any number of targets within range you consider allies. In case of Blessed Air I understand it too says 'Target' and also specifies area. This is extremely poor wording, but I can only guess it means you can select any number of targets within 60ft spread. Does it say it's centered on you ? If no, then you could actually fix it somewhere in the range (althrough you can't affect targets beyond spell's range anyway, so no sense, unless you Enlarge it). As for Feeblemind vs Break Enchantment, both descriptions do have contradicting statements. However, Feeblemind is more specific (it namely states what works, while BE only vaguely says Enchantmens, Transmutations and Curses) it should take precedence. Either WotC forgot to update Feeblemind description (but BE was in 3.0 already) or they intended to exclude it. Of course this would mean all noncore spells can't break Feeblemind. You must just houserule either way, because there is only one vague answer I given.