Clear definition of personal range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clear definition of personal range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
baltasar_basilius
04-24-07, 01:11 PM I'm looking at the persistent feat, and the requirement to use it with a spell is personal or fixed range. Can a spell count as personal range when it doesn't specifically say the word "personal?" For example, polymorph is "Willing living creature touched," but it could be only considered personal if used with persistent. I am just wondering if there are any authoritative rulings on this.

Perhaps if there isn't anything that addresses this I could just make a plea to common sense(which has to be a last resort for some people). In the text for the feat it gives detect magic as an example, and the range for that spell is 60'. :rolleyes:
NoldorForce
04-24-07, 01:18 PM Personal range refers to spells with "Range: Personal" in their tables. Such as Divine Power, Shapechange, Arcane Sight, See Invisibility, etc.

Detect Magic is technically a spell of fixed range rather than personal range, as it states "Range: 60 ft."

You are correct that Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Polymorph as it is. However, there are various techniques for changing the range of a spell to get around the above restrictions. In the case of touch range spells, there's either Reach Spell (metamagic, +2) or Divine Reach (Hierophant class ability), both of which allow you to alter the spell from touch range to a 30' ranged touch effect (giving it a fixed range).
baltasar_basilius
04-24-07, 02:06 PM Hmmm, well as an artificer it is a pain in the butt to use more than one metamagic feat with a wand. Are there any spells from a diffrent class that have a personal range?
Merestil Haye
04-24-07, 02:30 PM You are correct that Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Polymorph as it is. However, there are various techniques for changing the range of a spell to get around the above restrictions. In the case of touch range spells, there's either Reach Spell (metamagic, +2) or Divine Reach (Hierophant class ability), both of which allow you to alter the spell from touch range to a 30' ranged touch effect (giving it a fixed range).Reach Spell makes a touch spell into a ray.

Ray spells do not have a fixed range. They can affect anything from the caster's space to their maximum range from the caster's space.

"Fixed" in this context means that the character knows as he starts casting the spell exactly what he will effect.

Detect Magic and Antimagic Field are examples of spells with fixed range.
baltasar_basilius
04-24-07, 02:58 PM I guess I always thought of fixed as a non-moving location. Hallow would be a "fixed" place that does not change.
Drachasor
04-24-07, 03:03 PM Well, personally as a DM I'd let a player use Persistent Spell with a range of touch. That would change the range to "Personal" however*. I don't see how changing a spell from range of touch to range of personal somehow makes it more powerful (it should be weaker since you can't choose who to effect).

That said, I wouldn't allow Polymorph as it currently exists into my game. Nor would I allow spells that have a fixed duration in rounds to be persisted (e.g. Wraithstrike, which has a duration of one round). Polymorph is too potent, and takes a lot of time to manage. (When I played a Druid, even Wild Shape required that I have a computer spread sheet to quickly take into account the changes to my abilities and damage. Polymorph allows a lot more possibilities, and is even harder to handle, imho).

By RAW though, you can make a good case the "range: touch" is a "fixed range". You can certainly make a case that a ray with a "range: 30 feet" is fixed too (range entry is fixed in both cases). I don't see any ruling against this in the FAQ, Ask Wizards, or Sage Advice, but I might have missed something (perhaps the errata?) Anything broken about this anyone? (Assume no Divine Metamagic(Persistant Spell), since that's just broken in general).

-Drachasor

*Or maybe not, I'd have to think on this.
baltasar_basilius
04-24-07, 03:20 PM That said, I wouldn't allow Polymorph as it currently exists into my game.

And after that being said, nor would I allow you as you currently exist into my game.

Play on words aside, I mean no disrespect. People simply enjoy different styles of play. You happen to have different priorities on what you want out of a game. Yes, things like persistent wraithstrike are a clever trick and werent meant to be played that way. Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means.
ArcTan
04-24-07, 03:30 PM Look at the intention behind Persistent Spell being phrased this way -- the point is that you can't Persist spells you cast on other people. You can only Persist spells you can *only* cast on yourself (self-buffs) or spells you can *only* cast as "fields" (area buffs or controls, like AMF or antilife shell). This removes the capacity to Persist harmful spells (debuffs) or to Persist spells you use to buff the melee characters, which restricts the power of Persistent Spell and removes the really, really obvious game-breakers.
ArcTan
04-24-07, 03:32 PM And after that being said, nor would I allow you as you currently exist into my game.

Play on words aside, I mean no disrespect. People simply enjoy different styles of play. You happen to have different priorities on what you want out of a game. Yes, things like persistent wraithstrike are a clever trick and werent meant to be played that way. Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means.

Polymorph is problematic as a non-Persistent, normal-duration spell at 4th level, honestly. It has nothing to do with Persisting it and everything to do with it being a frelled spell as it stands.
Drachasor
04-24-07, 03:34 PM Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means.

This is off the topic of this thread, but I have a problem with the Polymorph spell, not with the Persistent Spell feat. It is cumbersome mechanically (and hence tends to slow the game down), and it can allow forms that are too powerful for a 4th level effect (imho).

-Drachasor
baltasar_basilius
04-24-07, 03:44 PM oh yeah, I totally agree with you that a player needs to prepare everything ahead of time if they plan to use polymorph, wildshape, etc. Wasting other people's time to cast a spell or wildshape is generally rude. I also agree that caster level=HD is not a perfect system to determine what a caster can transform into.

Have you seen any good houserules for this? Maybe something along the lines of using caster level-X=CR?
ArcTan
04-24-07, 03:47 PM oh yeah, I totally agree with you that a player needs to prepare everything ahead of time if they plan to use polymorph, wildshape, etc. Wasting other people's time to cast a spell or wildshape is generally rude. I also agree that caster level=HD is not a perfect system to determine what a caster can transform into.

Have you seen any good houserules for this? Maybe something along the lines of using caster level-X=CR?

Still clumsy. It's really easier to just have the DM make a list of what shapes he is okay with and have the player agree to it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
baltasar_basilius 04-24-07, 01:11 PM	I'm looking at the persistent feat, and the requirement to use it with a spell is personal or fixed range. Can a spell count as personal range when it doesn't specifically say the word "personal?" For example, polymorph is "Willing living creature touched," but it could be only considered personal if used with persistent. I am just wondering if there are any authoritative rulings on this. Perhaps if there isn't anything that addresses this I could just make a plea to common sense(which has to be a last resort for some people). In the text for the feat it gives detect magic as an example, and the range for that spell is 60'. :rolleyes:
NoldorForce 04-24-07, 01:18 PM	Personal range refers to spells with "Range: Personal" in their tables. Such as Divine Power, Shapechange, Arcane Sight, See Invisibility, etc. Detect Magic is technically a spell of fixed range rather than personal range, as it states "Range: 60 ft." You are correct that Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Polymorph as it is. However, there are various techniques for changing the range of a spell to get around the above restrictions. In the case of touch range spells, there's either Reach Spell (metamagic, +2) or Divine Reach (Hierophant class ability), both of which allow you to alter the spell from touch range to a 30' ranged touch effect (giving it a fixed range).
baltasar_basilius 04-24-07, 02:06 PM	Hmmm, well as an artificer it is a pain in the butt to use more than one metamagic feat with a wand. Are there any spells from a diffrent class that have a personal range?
Merestil Haye 04-24-07, 02:30 PM	You are correct that Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Polymorph as it is. However, there are various techniques for changing the range of a spell to get around the above restrictions. In the case of touch range spells, there's either Reach Spell (metamagic, +2) or Divine Reach (Hierophant class ability), both of which allow you to alter the spell from touch range to a 30' ranged touch effect (giving it a fixed range).Reach Spell makes a touch spell into a ray. Ray spells do not have a fixed range. They can affect anything from the caster's space to their maximum range from the caster's space. "Fixed" in this context means that the character knows as he starts casting the spell exactly what he will effect. Detect Magic and Antimagic Field are examples of spells with fixed range.
baltasar_basilius 04-24-07, 02:58 PM	I guess I always thought of fixed as a non-moving location. Hallow would be a "fixed" place that does not change.
Drachasor 04-24-07, 03:03 PM	Well, personally as a DM I'd let a player use Persistent Spell with a range of touch. That would change the range to "Personal" however. I don't see how changing a spell from range of touch to range of personal somehow makes it more powerful (it should be weaker since you can't choose who to effect). That said, I wouldn't allow Polymorph as it currently exists into my game. Nor would I allow spells that have a fixed duration in rounds to be persisted (e.g. Wraithstrike, which has a duration of one round). Polymorph is too potent, and takes a lot of time to manage. (When I played a Druid, even Wild Shape required that I have a computer spread sheet to quickly take into account the changes to my abilities and damage. Polymorph allows a lot more possibilities, and is even harder to handle, imho). By RAW though, you can make a good case the "range: touch" is a "fixed range". You can certainly make a case that a ray with a "range: 30 feet" is fixed too (range entry is fixed in both cases). I don't see any ruling against this in the FAQ, Ask Wizards, or Sage Advice, but I might have missed something (perhaps the errata?) Anything broken about this anyone? (Assume no Divine Metamagic(Persistant Spell), since that's just broken in general). -Drachasor Or maybe not, I'd have to think on this.
baltasar_basilius 04-24-07, 03:20 PM	That said, I wouldn't allow Polymorph as it currently exists into my game. And after that being said, nor would I allow you as you currently exist into my game. Play on words aside, I mean no disrespect. People simply enjoy different styles of play. You happen to have different priorities on what you want out of a game. Yes, things like persistent wraithstrike are a clever trick and werent meant to be played that way. Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means.
ArcTan 04-24-07, 03:30 PM	Look at the intention behind Persistent Spell being phrased this way -- the point is that you can't Persist spells you cast on other people. You can only Persist spells you can only cast on yourself (self-buffs) or spells you can only cast as "fields" (area buffs or controls, like AMF or antilife shell). This removes the capacity to Persist harmful spells (debuffs) or to Persist spells you use to buff the melee characters, which restricts the power of Persistent Spell and removes the really, really obvious game-breakers.
ArcTan 04-24-07, 03:32 PM	And after that being said, nor would I allow you as you currently exist into my game. Play on words aside, I mean no disrespect. People simply enjoy different styles of play. You happen to have different priorities on what you want out of a game. Yes, things like persistent wraithstrike are a clever trick and werent meant to be played that way. Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means. Polymorph is problematic as a non-Persistent, normal-duration spell at 4th level, honestly. It has nothing to do with Persisting it and everything to do with it being a frelled spell as it stands.
Drachasor 04-24-07, 03:34 PM	Yet, why you see a problem with a 24 hour polymorph as a 10th level spell (4th level+6 persistent) is beyond me. If you and your group enjoy playing that way then by all means. This is off the topic of this thread, but I have a problem with the Polymorph spell, not with the Persistent Spell feat. It is cumbersome mechanically (and hence tends to slow the game down), and it can allow forms that are too powerful for a 4th level effect (imho). -Drachasor
baltasar_basilius 04-24-07, 03:44 PM	oh yeah, I totally agree with you that a player needs to prepare everything ahead of time if they plan to use polymorph, wildshape, etc. Wasting other people's time to cast a spell or wildshape is generally rude. I also agree that caster level=HD is not a perfect system to determine what a caster can transform into. Have you seen any good houserules for this? Maybe something along the lines of using caster level-X=CR?
ArcTan 04-24-07, 03:47 PM	oh yeah, I totally agree with you that a player needs to prepare everything ahead of time if they plan to use polymorph, wildshape, etc. Wasting other people's time to cast a spell or wildshape is generally rude. I also agree that caster level=HD is not a perfect system to determine what a caster can transform into. Have you seen any good houserules for this? Maybe something along the lines of using caster level-X=CR? Still clumsy. It's really easier to just have the DM make a list of what shapes he is okay with and have the player agree to it.