Post/Author/DateTime	Post
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-29-04, 10:06 PM	Animate dead does not, I repeat, NOT in any way shape or form work by trapping souls the deceased. Here's my support: 1. P.250 3.5e PHB, text of magic jar in the bottom of the third paragraph of the description: Only sentient udnead have, or are, souls. 2. If that's not enough, consider, you can still animate a dead creature if the soul has been trapped elsewhere with trap the soul, soul bind, magic jar, or destroyed. 3. In the DMG under the section death and raising the dead, it says that magic cannot bring a soul back against its will.
Donnavin Snowolf 03-29-04, 10:10 PM	makes sense to me. (and sorry deathmaster777, apparently when yo uattempted to eat my brain I passed your low touch AC and plasted you with ndead disrupting spells, bummer) ^ (The link in your sig.)
bitnine 03-29-04, 10:10 PM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. 3. The spell animate dead has target (one or more corpses touched). This means that legallly it can animate a corpse created by casting stone to flesh on a statue.This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.Dead is a status that can only be possessed by creatures (as noted in the condition summary); given the spell block, a crafted lump of flesh does not meet that condition and is indeed not a valid target for the spell.
sparkster4242 03-30-04, 12:48 AM	SRD 3.5, Stone to Flesh: (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) it may not be Dead, but its definitely not alive either ... and it _is_ a corpse.
[GSV] Kirstar 03-30-04, 03:16 AM	a corpse is a once alive thing a lump of flesh is a lump of flesh now if you were to research a way to animate a lump of flesh..... maybe you will need lightning from a storm etc....
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-30-04, 06:29 AM	The spell stone to flesh says its a corpse. The spell animate dead targets corpses. The text in the main block of the spell overrides the description.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-30-04, 06:31 AM	But anyway, the issue on animating corpses made with stone to flesh is a side-issue. The main point remains: animate dead does not trap souls of the animatees.
Shatteredtower 03-30-04, 07:30 AM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. The spell stone to flesh says its a corpse. The spell animate dead targets corpses. The text in the main block of the spell overrides the description. Just for the record, the target for create undead is listed as a corpse. The target for animate dead is required to have been a creature with either a skeleton or a true anatomy. A statue that was transformed by stone to flesh gains neither. The only target of stone to flesh that would gain a skeletal system (a requirement for any creature that would acquire the zombie template), rather than become just a fleshy substance, is a creature that was petrified by a basilisk, cockatrice, stone to flesh spell, or the like, since the spell states that it will restore a petrified creature to its normal state. Besides, the statue had no hit dice in the first place, so it's rather pointless to double them in undeath. Animate dead also notes that the statistics for a zombie depend only upon its size, not on abilities the creature had while it was alive, which is not entirely correct, since it contradicts the Monster Manual, the definitive source on zombie statistics. Furthermore, the text for stone to flesh also contains an error, as its claim that a stone golem is turned to a flesh golem is contradicted by what is written in the Monster Manual's stone golem entry. The matter of animated skeletons and zombies holding trapped souls is aptly demonstrated by the matter of magic jar's text, but the stone to flesh zombie is an invalid argument. The point about bringing a soul back from death is actually covered in the PHB (pg 171), not the DMG (pg 41 refers to the former source), under the heading: Revivification against One's Will, which reads: A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. Since a character is not restored to life by being made undead, this point does not stand. If it did, it becomes hard to explain why create greater undead could produce a ghost with all of your abilities but not your soul. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the rules don't for restoring souls to an undead form are not clearly defined enough to insist on having it officially played either way. Again, the only reliable point is the one presented by magic jar.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-30-04, 04:06 PM	You have effectively disproved my fourth and third points. What about the second one though?
The Hanged Man 03-30-04, 06:23 PM	It's like watching Don Quixote. Where's that windmill again? Good luck RMGCLF. But the debate will go on. And On. And on.
Shatteredtower 03-30-04, 06:29 PM	Sorry about that. I can find nothing in the core books to contradict your second point, and I would be happy to accept it. (Digressing for a minute, I'm now wondering about the possibility of making zombies with the use of flesh to stone, stone to flesh, fabricate, Craft (sculptor) and an intact skeletal system, possibly with the use of transmute rock to mud and transmute mud to rock in there as well. Some DMs might allow this, especially considering the work involved, depending on what their interpretation of a true anatomy, mentioned in the section on creating zombies, is. I can't see a way to abuse this.)
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-30-04, 06:35 PM	(Digression is best continued here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173080))
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-31-04, 06:41 PM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower Just for the record, the target for create undead is listed as a corpse. The target for animate dead is required to have been a creature with either a skeleton or a true anatomy. A statue that was transformed by stone to flesh gains neither. The only target of stone to flesh that would gain a skeletal system (a requirement for any creature that would acquire the zombie template), rather than become just a fleshy substance, is a creature that was petrified by a basilisk, cockatrice, stone to flesh spell, or the like, since the spell states that it will restore a petrified creature to its normal state. Besides, the statue had no hit dice in the first place, so it's rather pointless to double them in undeath. Animate dead also notes that the statistics for a zombie depend only upon its size, not on abilities the creature had while it was alive, which is not entirely correct, since it contradicts the Monster Manual, the definitive source on zombie statistics. Since a character is not restored to life by being made undead, this point does not stand. If it did, it becomes hard to explain why create greater undead could produce a ghost with all of your abilities but not your soul. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the rules don't for restoring souls to an undead form are not clearly defined enough to insist on having it officially played either way. Again, the only reliable point is the one presented by magic jar. From the 3.5 SRD: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stone to Flesh Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One petrified creature or a cylinder of stone from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone. Material Component: A pinch of earth and a drop of blood. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Specifically says that a statue becomes a corpse. Not a "Mass of flesh in the shape of a body", but a corpse. Target for the Animate Dead spell is "One or more corpses touched". Stone to Flesh specifically turns statues into corpses, and Animate Dead takes a corpse. Doesn't matter how or where you got the corpse from. As for petrifying zombies to keep them from rotting, thats a common missconception. All decay on a zombie stops when the spell is cast. Zombies will never rot into skeletons.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 03-31-04, 06:43 PM	Since a character is not restored to life by being made undead, this point does not stand. If it did, it becomes hard to explain why create greater undead could produce a ghost with all of your abilities but not your soul. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the rules don't for restoring souls to an undead form are not clearly defined enough to insist on having it officially played either way. One of the few changes I like in 3.5 is that create greater undead no longer creates ghosts (devourers instead), so no more neutral good ghosts created by a spell with the evil descriptor.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-18-04, 07:32 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man It's like watching Don Quixote. Where's that windmill again? Good luck RMGCLF. But the debate will go on. And On. And on. At least I can just link to tjhis whenever somebody brings up an argument in a future debate, or merely point to my sig to get some of the sub-issues out of the way early.
Shatteredtower 04-19-04, 01:10 AM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. Specifically says that a statue becomes a corpse. Not a "Mass of flesh in the shape of a body", but a corpse. A corpse doesn't require a skeletal system. Stone to Flesh does not create one where one did not exist. Target for the Animate Dead spell is "One or more corpses touched". Stone to Flesh specifically turns statues into corpses, and Animate Dead takes a corpse. Doesn't matter how or where you got the corpse from. "Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones..." "Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy..." Both statements are from pg 198 of the PHB, under the description of the spell animate dead. I've underlined the pertinent sentences. Note that the zombie specifies that the corpse must be of a creature as well. Therefore, while flesh to stone may create a corpse, it does not create a valid target for animate dead, because it does not produce a true anatomy. I will note that the spell also states: "The statistics for a zombie depend on its size, not one what abilities the creature may have had while it was alive," and makes a similar comment about skeletons, but this is incorrect. Based on the rules of the errata, the Monster Manual takes precedence over the PHB when it comes to defining the statistics for these undead creatures, and both are templates applied to another creature type. A statue turned to flesh has no creature type, and thus cannot be turned into a zombie or skeleton, since it has always been and remains an object, never having been a creature. "Zombie is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead)..." That's from the zombie entry on page 265 of theMonster Manual; I've underlined the key word. You'll find almost identical wording for the skeleton entry on pg 225. Oddly enough, even if you houseruled allowing the spells to work together to produce zombies, said zombies would automatically have 2 hit dice, regardless of size, since that's the minimum number of hit dice available to a zombie, and transformed stone had no hit dice to start with.
hiryuu 04-19-04, 02:04 AM	Just thought I'd chime in: It says it creates a corpse - that implies that it has everything a human corpse has. In fact, I believe that's the spirit of the rule in question.
Eco-Mono 04-19-04, 02:15 AM	Excellent proof, R.M.G.C.L.F. I would like to add to it this one: Say your buddy dies to a wight and rises as a spawn. You destroy the spawn, then cast True Resurrection to bring your buddy back... and his alignment is just what it was before he died. If the original necromancy that raised his body as a wight beat and bruised his alignment into LE, then why would it be restored now? There's no WotC-published spell that can change someone's alignment against their will, and after becoming LE, the soul would be extremely unwilling to return to his original alignment. Any forcing it to do so would be an [evil] act. (This last statement is debatable, cf my Constitution on Alignment.) Thus, it must have been some OTHER being inhabiting his body when it rose as a wight, inasmuch as your friend's personality is 100% intact when raised. Boy I'm proud of those Constitution pages.
Shatteredtower 04-19-04, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by hiryuu Just thought I'd chime in: It says it creates a corpse - that implies that it has everything a human corpse has. In fact, I believe that's the spirit of the rule in question. It implies nothing of the sort, and has nothing to do with the spirit of the rules at all. A statue does not have a true anatomy, and that is what you are turning to flesh.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-19-04, 06:35 AM	Originally posted by Shatteredtower It implies nothing of the sort, and has nothing to do with the spirit of the rules at all. A statue does not have a true anatomy, and that is what you are turning to flesh. The statue does not have a true anatomy, but the corpse created from it does. Check the SRD statement I posted.
Shatteredtower 04-19-04, 08:36 AM	The SRD quote proves nothing at all. If a wizard develops a spell that devours the target's bones, you are still left with a corpse, and it is not a valid target for the animate dead spell. The SRD reference to stone to flesh does not contradict the PHB entry on animate dead, but the animate dead entry does contradict your argument, by noting that the corpse must have a true anatomy and a skeletal system. If a corpse was defined by these features, animate dead would not note that the corpse to be animated required either of them. It does, and therefore there is nothing in the rules to suggest that a corpse created by flesh to stone is a valid target for animate dead. What you have is just as much a corpse as you'd have if you used finger of death to kill a grey ooze, which cannot be turned into a zombie either. Furthermore, flesh to stone does not create a creature, it creates an object that was never a creature to begin with -- and as such, it cannot have the zombie or skeleton template applied to it. If you bend that rule, then suddenly the Craft (scupltor) skill and the spells fabricate, stone to flesh, and animate dead guarantee that you can create statues of a legendary warrior or monster, rather than the run-of-the-mill type, and you don't have to settle for zombies with anything close to average (for zombies) Strength and Dexterity. In fact, why settle for that? Just make half-dragon ogre statues, or give all of your statues wings. You can throw out the concept of base creature right away, and gleefully create zombies with a half-dozen oddly-shaped arms designed to cause damage as battle axes or spears or the like. While your at it, start making statues of exotic creatures that can be harvested for those unusual material components you need. Following the argument that stone to flesh can provide a completely accurate external and internal likeness of the creature depicted by a scupltor, you would be best served by using it on statues of creatures that are carved wearing heavy armor. After all, if you're assuming that the spell knows your intentions well enough to discern between flesh and not-flesh, surely an extra 30 to 50 pounds of metal on a 180-pound sack of meat shouldn't pose a problem. Once the spell can acccomplish that, forget the zombies and start producing armor from any source of stone. For an added bonus, invest in a single suit of adamantine armor, put it on a model and then mass produce carvings of that model to mine cheap adamantine armor in bulk. But that won't work, because the spell only turns stone to flesh, leaving you with a corpse that looks like its body resembles a suit of armor (save for the color, since that is determined by the stone used and any form of colouring applied by the sculptor). It can only produce a corpse made of flesh, nothing else. Since you don't need anything but a fleshy mass to make a corpse, then stone to flesh can create your corpse -- but the corpse does not have the prerequisites to be a valid target for animate dead.
Eco-Mono 04-19-04, 10:19 AM	Why don't we ask the Sage to clear this debate up during his next chat session? Personally I have no idea who is in the right.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 04-19-04, 04:02 PM	Well, the ideal situation would involve a core rule statement, but the sage would be a good idea. In fact, while you're at it you might do well to ask some other questions about undead that have plagued the boards of a while, like why exactly spells that create them have the evil descriptor even though some undead are good.
Bedevere 04-19-04, 06:07 PM	I only read this thread fairly quickly, so sorry if I missed something, but.... Do the rules for stone to flesh specifically say they do not create a skeletal system in the corpse they create? Do they in fact make any statements about the finished article other than it is a corpse? Anyone who answers this by saying things like 'The spell is called stone to flesh. It makes flesh only' Will be ridiculed. Sure, the spell is called that. A lot of other spells have names which do not match their effects 100%. A lot of spells have effects not implied in their names. A lot of spells seem to have retained their names, while their effects change between versions. In short, the name of a spell does not tell you everything about it. That is what the rest of the info there is for. Oh, and just because non sentient undead have no souls, does not mean they do not have controlling minds/forces behind them. Lesser demons/elementals bound into servitude within the body for instance, would not have a soul, since they cannot be restored to life via raise dead, etc. However, they are still something intelligent residing in the body. A somewhat academic distinction, though entirely valid to some. As a counter to RMGCLF's second point, I play in a non D&D game where a player sold his soul for a wish to save a kingdom. He has since regained a soul, though not his own. Nobody ever said a different soul could not inhabit a body. In fact, this might suggest how certain undead could be created from the original body (retaining the memories of the body through sympathetic links) and be Evil, (since posessions of a corpse sounds evil to me.) yet once the body is restored to true life, it can be good again. Alignment is linked to the soul. Memory and skills to the mind.
Luminosity 06-08-04, 02:23 AM	Just thought I'd chime in: It says it creates a corpse - that implies that it has everything a human corpse has. In fact, I believe that's the spirit of the rule in question. I believe that's a bit bogus. The spirit of the rule is that the spell does not turn a statue into a living, breathing creature unless it was one to begin with. No dragon-statue-to-real-dragon spells out there. AND an entire half of that sentence is absolutely untrue. Stone to Flesh will not turn a Stone Golem into a Flesh Golem. This casts serious doubt on the legitimacy of the rest of the sentence because it suggests that it is from a pre-release version of 3rd ed. Are we still working on points 1 and 2? First of all, 2 does not suggest that animating corpses does not trap a soul. It suggests that it cannot take a soul away from higher magic. The spell could just as easliy snag a similar soul and stick it in the body. Another possibility is that the spell traps a random soul to begin with. And on to point 1. Let's start by taking at face value that the statement from the description of magic jar is an overarching statement on the nature of undead instead of a description of valid targets for the spell it describes. I submit that zombies and skeletons are sentient because they are evil. If they were not sentient, they would be neutral. Evil implies choice and choice implies sentience. Also, there has not been a response to this qoute: Originally posted by Gez You have to destroy an undead before attempting to resurrect the person it was before, so even a mindless automaton undead like a zombie must do something to its former soul. From this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218772&perpage=30&pagenumber=3). Normally, it would be ridiculous to expect the response to a quote from another thread to be in this one, but you directed the poster to this thread as a response to his statement, and I see no response here. I lack my books, so riddle me this, please. Can True Resurrection bring back a person whose body has been animated and remains animated at the casting of the spell? As far as I can remember, Resurrection requires one to first destroy the undead creature, and True does not amend that requirement. Conclusion: While two of your points may (vaguely) suggest that Animate Dead does not trap the soul of the corpse that it animates, it is nothing even approaching proof.
Naeron 06-08-04, 06:51 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity I lack my books, so riddle me this, please. Can True Resurrection bring back a person whose body has been animated and remains animated at the casting of the spell? As far as I can remember, Resurrection requires one to first destroy the undead creature, and True does not amend that requirement. The requirement is the same, True Resurrection states "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.". So someone who has been turned into an undead creature cannot be brought back to life.This strongly implies that something is "binding" their souls even though Magci Jar states that mindless undead have no souls. However, for those undead that have Create Spawn abilities it is pretty clear that it is the creature that rises as an undead. So that could be the delineation, people who have suffered from the Create Spawn ability cannot be brought back unless destroyed (because this does "fix" the soul in some way) whereas someone who is already dead who has Animate Dead cast on their corpse is not affected because they have not been turned into an undead creature. It may also be possible to extend this delineation to the Create Undead spells.
Zelphi 06-08-04, 09:04 AM	*Yawn* I know in 3.0 there was a spell that let you talk to the dead... it went on about how corpses retained their past dying memories. Zombies have no intelligence score - non intelligent undead but a wisdom of 10 and a Charisma of 1 - still aspects of a mind retained Always neutral evil. Part of their nature of being undead and powered by negative energy (evil). Skeletons - Mindless automatons that obey the orders of their evil masters. Intelligence of zero , wis 10 Char 1... same as Zombie, non intelligent undead Animate Dead Targets one Corpse. Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. [quote] Statues don't have bones, but I assume at this point... if you made a statue of a skeleton and animated it, it might work... [quote] Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy. Statues aren't creatures, statues don't have an anatomy, no zombies from statues here. Stone to Flesh Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One petrified creature or a cylinder of stone from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone. Material Component: A pinch of earth and a drop of blood. Bad wording? Either way, you can't make a zombie from a flesh to stone statue because the statue doesn't have a true anatomy. You can't make a skeleton because you're making flesh - not bone. As for Stone Golems... A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round. I'll deal with soul binding in a bit...
Zelphi 06-08-04, 09:12 AM	You cannot ressurect someone who's currently undead - beacuse they aren't undead, or they don't have a body to return to. The "why's" of why you can't Resurect someone is down to the nature of the undead. If someones reanimated their corpse, then they can't be returned to it. You can't use their corpse as the target of the spell because it's currently in use. If they've been turned into a different form of undead - like a Vampire, then they're not truly dead are they... that's one of the key points. Just like using clone, you can't then resurect the body or even reincarnate them. Another possibility is that a the target has to be willing to return. An unintelligent undead cannot make such a decission because it is mindless. An intelligent undead maynot wish to be turned back... Either way, Undead is not dead. So why the hell anyone thought Animate Dead bound a soul is beyond me... and yes if you create a lump of flesh and then animate object - you get an animated lump of flesh... best stick to that statue of a Hecantoncherie and animate that.
ninja1 06-08-04, 12:12 PM	*Double Yawn* :D Originally posted by Zelphi Bad wording? Either way, you can't make a zombie from a flesh to stone statue because the statue doesn't have a true anatomy. You can't make a skeleton because you're making flesh - not bone. If you made a stone wall into a flesh wall, then I'd agree that you couldn't animate it. If you made a stone statue of an oooze or jelly into flesh, then it would be a corpse without a true anatomy. I'd agree that you couldn't animate it either. However, a stone statue of a human, creates a human corpse. Humans have a true anatomy. Human corpses have a true anatomy..... Stone to Flesh Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Target: One petrified creature or a cylinder of stone from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone. Material Component: A pinch of earth and a drop of blood.
meabolex 06-08-04, 12:38 PM	An interesting discussion. Or mindless bantering if you ask the wrong person (: Now, rather than try to go by the rules (as we all try to day in and day out), lets do something different for a change as an exercise. Let's say the statue CAN form a corpse that works with Animate Undead. What are the abuses and negatives to the game that would cause? Also, Let's say the statue CANNOT form a corpse that works with Animate Undead. Would this impose any kind of meaningful cap on the usefulness of Animate Dead or Stone to Flesh?
Luminosity 06-08-04, 01:04 PM	Let's say the statue CAN form a corpse that works with Animate Undead. What are the abuses and negatives to the game that would cause? Let's say you respond to the abuses already suggested on this thread? Anyway, you could harvest unicorn horns or dragon parts, etc.
meabolex 06-08-04, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by Luminosity Let's say you respond to the abuses already suggested on this thread? Anyway, you could harvest unicorn horns or dragon parts, etc. Sorry, I'm having difficulty reading through the meh. As for your example, that seems fairly valid -- does a unicorn horn do something in the game that I'm not aware of? I know it does something really good in Nethack (: As for the dragon parts, I assume you mean to make a suit of dragonhide armor. By the rules, it doesn't have that much in-game effect other than allowing druids the opportunity to get some decent armor. Is there something else I'm missing here?
Luminosity 06-08-04, 01:31 PM	Dragon parts have quite a bit of value in the Draconomicon. I believe unicorn horns are useful as comsumable spell foci. It'd be in the BOVD or the BOED. Anyway, that's just a couple examples.
meabolex 06-08-04, 01:39 PM	Well, a relatively simple DM ruling would be that the corpses that are derived from the spell aren't genuine corpses, but rather magically generated corpses. Thus, they don't contain the properties of the real thing -- they just sorta look like it. So, the horn and the dragon parts won't be useful because they're not genuine.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-08-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by Bedevere Oh, and just because non sentient undead have no souls, does not mean they do not have controlling minds/forces behind them. Lesser demons/elementals bound into servitude within the body for instance, would not have a soul, since they cannot be restored to life via raise dead, etc. However, they are still something intelligent residing in the body. A somewhat academic distinction, though entirely valid to some. Yes, it does. Even if them not having souls isn't enough for you, the have no intelligence so they do not have any mind, and with a charisma of one they effectively have no ability to exert will or interact. The only mental power they have is the ability to percieve their surroundings. I think your latter example is incorrect, but the wording confuses me. What do you mean by "bound into servitude within the body"? As a counter to RMGCLF's second point, I play in a non D&D game where a player sold his soul for a wish to save a kingdom. He has since regained a soul, though not his own. Nobody ever said a different soul could not inhabit a body. In fact, this might suggest how certain undead could be created from the original body (retaining the memories of the body through sympathetic links) and be Evil, (since posessions of a corpse sounds evil to me.) yet once the body is restored to true life, it can be good again. Alignment is linked to the soul. Memory and skills to the mind. That counter fails. While a different soul might be brough back, if that were the case their would be some rules about rolling for the new souls alignment and charisma and spell-like abilities. There is no mention of such a thing, and since the rules go against it and the fluff does not mention it, we can conlude it not to be true.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-08-04, 06:00 PM	I've taken away the point about stone to flesh because it's detracting from the main debate. Please discuss it over at the "custom undead horrors" thread, with the link provided earlier in the post "digression is best continued here".
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-08-04, 06:05 PM	Originally posted by Luminosity And on to point 1. Let's start by taking at face value that the statement from the description of magic jar is an overarching statement on the nature of undead instead of a description of valid targets for the spell it describes. I submit that zombies and skeletons are sentient because they are evil. If they were not sentient, they would be neutral. Evil implies choice and choice implies sentience. That is wrong. They cannot be sentient because sentient creatures have intelligence of at least 3, by the definition of the the term in dungeons and dragons. Furthermore, mindless undead being evil only suggests that they have souls, while magic jar out right says mindless undead do not have souls. It's pretty hard to dismiss that.
Zelphi 06-09-04, 06:27 AM	True anatomy equates to internals and the like.. statues don't have those. A humanoid corpse resembling a human - does not gain the anatomy of a person. As Stone to Flesh only works to transform Stone into a Flesh substance, it doesn't have any of the composite peices to form a true anatomy. This would include brains, veins, bones and the like. The Stone to Flesh spell doesn't create any of those materials nore does it specifically create a corpse of a specfic type. There is no source for the true anatomy. It's not even a dead person, it had no soul or no life before hand. It's not even dead - just a mass of flesh. Consider this further point - if a statue of a human is holding a sword - what does the sword become? As for downsides of it actually doing such things. If you can create a body from a statue, then you can create a statue of anything and get a usuable corpse of anything, then animate a zombie of any size from it. If it does indeed create the full anatomy of a creature from a statue, then you could make any creature you wanted by simply scultping a good enough statue of a screature and turn it to life. If it's a corpse then you can potentially resurect or reincarnate it as well. It isn't a good thing even in the slightest. Really those effects should be dumped off the spell, as it's only really meant as a counter to petrification.
Pentar 06-09-04, 12:22 PM	I submit that zombies and skeletons are sentient because they are evil. If they were not sentient, they would be neutral. Evil implies choice and choice implies sentience. Total disagreement here. Not withstanding that the Alignment of Zombies and Skeletons is /neutral/... They are non-sentient undead - they are virtually animated automatons (like golems) except raised by unholy "evil" magic. I put "evil" in quotes because it's not necessarily evil - but it's definitely not "good". I agree with RMGCLF - non-sentient undead cannot possess a soul. They have no alignment, they have no ability to "break free" of their condition or state, nor does the original creator have to exert any amount of will to control them. He simply gives them instructions which, in my mind, magically animate them to obey his commands. There /are/ intelligent undead - like Ghouls, Ghasts, Wraiths - which have alignment and are evil - and those arguably can possess a soul. Additionally, I think taking the Stone to Flesh route is about as ridiculously as suggesting you can animate a real stone statue by converting it with a Flesh to Stone and then casting Animate Dead. The spell changes flesh to stone and, yes, it kills the person. But the effect turns the person into a statue - not a corpse. Man, that's pure munchkinsim at it's best! Bravo! :)
Hypersmurf 06-09-04, 05:47 PM	Originally posted by Pentar Total disagreement here. Not withstanding that the Alignment of Zombies and Skeletons is /neutral/... I agree with RMGCLF - non-sentient undead cannot possess a soul. They have no alignment... Are you playing 3E? In 3.5, Zombies and Skeletons have an alignment of "Always Neutral Evil". -Hyp.
Pentar 06-09-04, 05:53 PM	Are you playing 3E? In 3.5, Zombies and Skeletons have an alignment of "Always Neutral Evil". ACK! Seriously??? I have been playing 3E most of the time. We only made the switch to v3.5 in our very latest campaign (like, literally 2 weeks ago :)). Skeletons and the like have been True Neutral since AD&D 2nd Edition if I recall correctly. Why would they suddenly make them NE? That's stupid... But I can see how that suddenly makes the argument of "soul-possessing" skeletons/zombies suddenly valid. ARRGH. Good work, Wizards of the Coast. Let's totally screw up ANIMATED corpses by giving them an assigned alignment.
Hypersmurf 06-09-04, 06:02 PM	Originally posted by Pentar ACK! Seriously??? Look it up... :) I'm sure it was mentioned earlier in the thread as well... -Hyp.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 06-09-04, 06:38 PM	Of course, with all undead being evil now, it's really easy to explain why all the various undead creating spells are also Evil. Specifically: The Summon Monster N series has subtypes based off of what you summon. Thus, if you summon an Evil monster, it's an Evil spell. Animate Dead and Create Undead (both versions) also bring creatures into being. In this case, undead. They're evil, because all the things you get are evil creatures.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 01:29 AM	Furthermore, mindless undead being evil only suggests that they have souls, while magic jar out right says mindless undead do not have souls. It's pretty hard to dismiss that. So what you have is one valid example of a suggestion that mindless undead have no souls. For the purposes of Magic Jar, mindless undead have no souls. In what way does this prove that animate dead involves no soul-trapping?
Pentar 06-10-04, 02:24 AM	I guess if one needed to have some sort of reason for automaton undead to have an alignment, it could be that the alignment is a byproduct of the spell used to create them. The same way a non-intelligent weapon can be aligned, denying characters of opposing alignments usage of their powers. The magic used to ressurect these undead is in fact evil, thus taining the undead themselves to be evil. That in itself does not mean the creatures have a soul, or that their souls are in any way trapped... But I guess it's a bit more thematic and dramatic to say that there are souls trapped in there and destroying the undead frees them. Go heroics!
bitnine 06-10-04, 03:05 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity For the purposes of Magic Jar, mindless undead have no souls. In what way does this prove that animate dead involves no soul-trapping? Because the magic jar spell block is obviously the primary source for questions regarding undead and souls. And once you read that mindless undead are soulless, simple extrapolation leads you to the fact that animate dead must in no way do anything involving souls, particularly not trapping thereof. Heck, even the linesA creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell.You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.don't specifically mention soul trapping, so you can't deductively prove that soul-trapping is being referenced as a process there.
Tenzhi 06-10-04, 03:27 AM	Originally posted by Naeron The requirement is the same, True Resurrection states "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.". So someone who has been turned into an undead creature cannot be brought back to life.This strongly implies that something is "binding" their souls even though Magci Jar states that mindless undead have no souls. You essentially pointed out what I'm about to say later in your post, but I'm going to say it anyway: A corpse is no longer "someone" - if it's been animated it isn't "someone who's been turned into an undead creature." So as long as the spell in question doesn't require the person's body to bring them back, having it animated doesn't affect their resurrection in any way. Want further proof that animation doesn't bind the person's soul? The soul isn't a requirement for the spell. If the soul has been completely destroyed, the spell will still work.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 04:50 AM	Originally posted by bitnine Because the magic jar spell block is obviously the primary source for questions regarding undead and souls. You're being sarcastic, aren't you? If I were looking for information on whether Animate Dead involves the trapping of souls, Magic Jar would not be the first entry that came into my mind. And once you read that mindless undead are soulless, simple extrapolation leads you to the fact that animate dead must in no way do anything involving souls, particularly not trapping thereof. You skipped the proof part. Let's see a 1.2.3. proof on this; I want every step in this logical process. Heck, even the linesdon't specifically mention soul trapping, so you can't deductively prove that soul-trapping is being referenced as a process there. I don't have to prove anything. I'm not the one claiming to have proof of a negative. The lines merely call into question RMCGLF's claim of proof. Riddle me this: in 3.0, Animate Dead was an evil spell that created neutral creatures. Why?
Tenzhi 06-10-04, 05:11 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity Riddle me this: in 3.0, Animate Dead was an evil spell that created neutral creatures. Why? The same reason one might run across any other contradictions in the book - it was written by humans. And to human is error.
Zelphi 06-10-04, 06:35 AM	Because in 3.0 they were mindless and considered neutral for that effect... as I said earlier, you think that being unholy and powered by negative energy? Maybe their evil now? It's irrelvent. At no point does animate dead say anything about the prior owner of the body? Does it? Point it out if it does. Otherwise they'd inherit personality stats from their past. There is nothing that says that Animate Dead traps the soul of a person? Do you have even one line that says otherwise? If you read what I'd said you see that resurection is nothing. You can't raise them because A) They aren't dead OR B) You don't have their dead corpse to return them to. Soul cannot return to the body of an animated corpse - because it's in use. It might prevent the soul from returning to a body used for animate dead purposes, but that doesn't stop the soul from going elsewhere? Do you have anything that says otherwise at all? Where the hell this ludicrous idea came from in the beggining I have no idea.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 07:34 AM	Originally posted by Zelphi Because in 3.0 they were mindless and considered neutral for that effect... as I said earlier, you think that being unholy and powered by negative energy? Maybe their evil now? It's irrelvent. Sir, I am afraid that they may have set us up the bomb. You have no chance to survive. Make your time. At no point does animate dead say anything about the prior owner of the body? Does it? Point it out if it does. Otherwise they'd inherit personality stats from their past. Skeleton and Zombie are templates now. I think that answers your pseudo-question. There is nothing that says that Animate Dead traps the soul of a person? Do you have even one line that says otherwise? If you're asking me to prove that Animate Dead traps a soul, then my response must be "make me". I am not arguing any positive point. I am questioning RMGCLF's logic and pointing out that his "proof" is thready at best. I don't care either way whether Animate Dead traps a soul. I will let my DM make that decision. RMGCLF is trying to dictate how others play the game and I am questioning his authority to do so. If you read what I'd said you see that resurection is nothing. If? I read "what" you, said, I might...not have; understood. It.
Tenzhi 06-10-04, 08:51 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity RMGCLF is trying to dictate how others play the game and I am questioning his authority to do so. No he's not - he's simply clarifying the rules (sketchy though they may be). As always, your DM dictates how you play the game and whether he adheres to every letter of the rules is his business.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 09:22 AM	No he's not - he's simply clarifying the rules (sketchy though they may be). You have your opinion, I have mine. And in any case, he is claiming as fact that which he does not know as fact.
Pentar 06-10-04, 11:13 AM	Want further proof that animation doesn't bind the person's soul? The soul isn't a requirement for the spell. If the soul has been completely destroyed, the spell will still work. I think this above quote did it for me. Despite the jarring change in alignment for skeletons and zombies for me from V3.0 to v3.5 (hell, from AD&D 2nd Edition to V3.5!!), the above is an excellent point regarding animate dead and souless undead. If a creature's soul was captured, destroyed, or otherwise not available for "re-animation" of their own corpse, the Animate Dead spell would still function. There is no material component, "Soul". There is no requirement that the remains must be those of someone killed in a non-soul-sucking, non-soul-destroying manner. It simply is a spell, driven and backed by evil energies that animates corpses back to serve the functions of the master. My only guess as to why they are now of "evil" alignment is in association with the spell used to create them and not a function of actual evil "intent" on the part of the non-intelligent creature.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 11:52 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity You have your opinion, I have mine. And in any case, he is claiming as fact that which he does not know as fact. I am not trying to dictate how others should play the game, I am trying to prove something about the core rules as written. I give a series of arguments and supporting evidence to try to prove a point. I'm not telling you "play this way or your doing it wrong", I'm saying "This is true because of this and that." If somebody said that a frequently abused spell combo actually didn't work giving some parts of spell descriptions and rules text on how certain spell effects interact, that wouldn't be "trying to assert their authority over you," they would simply be trying to clear up a common misnotion.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 12:07 PM	These are not my opinions, they are my conclusions. These are my opnions: Animate dead shouldn't have the evil descriptor, the alienist PrC has a cool concept but is poorly done, the Urza block in magic the gathering was made as a result of some illegal substances falling into the ventilation system and catching fire their spreading halluciogenic smoke throughout the building, etc. It's how you feel about something, how you want something to be or think it should be, how it relates to you alone. The points I presented here are not my opinions, but conclusions. I drew them from the outcomes of countless debates, reading and rereading of the rules, and logical analysis. They are supported with cited sections of text from the core rulebooks, and you can argue that they are stupid or badly written or don't make sense with the rule's system as a whole, but you cannot argue the fact that my three points are what the rules say. The first one about magic jar outright states my point as true. You may say that it was not the creator's intention or that it doesn't fit with other rules but you cannot argue that right there in the player's handbook, the text says that mindless undead do not have souls. I hope I'm not coming off as arrogant or defensive.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-10-04, 12:50 PM	The problem is that the conclusion you are deriving from the section you are quoted is debatable. For instance, I can take that quote and say "Ah, I can't magic jar a mindless undead". But there's nothing more to it than that. You are extrapolating a great deal from that one particular non-context quote.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 02:32 PM	Kyokikikuuuuuu....umm, the poster above me got it right. Magic Jar is as peripheral as information gets. I see no reason for it to be intended as a comment on how another spell functions. I see it as a description of valid targets for Magic Jar. I would consider 3.0's Animate Dead being [Evil] as much, much more important.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 03:03 PM	Just because it has an evil descriptor doesn't mean it messes with souls. Spells like soul bind and trap the soul trap souls but don't have evil descriptors. It is the only direct statement on whether or not mindless undead have souls in the entirity of the three core rulebooks. It has it in parentheses, which I think indicates it as an aside pointing out a general rule. There is no text in the core rulebooks that says mindless undead have souls, but their is text which says they do not. Outright statements win over vague implications. Also, almost all factual information about undead and souls and what exactly goes on with them is somewhat obscure or off course, because WotC never had the sense to make a page number in the index about undead and souls and what the nine hells happens whenever an animate dead spell is cast. Having said that, I am a bit embarrassed to say that I don't know what peripheral means. Could you explain the word? :blush:
Kyuketsukiouji 06-10-04, 03:23 PM	pe·riph·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p-rfr-l) adj. -Related to, located in, or constituting an outer boundary or periphery. -Perceived or perceiving near the outer edges of the retina: peripheral vision. -Anatomy. -Of the surface or outer part of a body or organ; external. -Of, relating to, or being part of the peripheral nervous system. -Of minor relevance or importance. -Auxiliary. Magic Jar makes it evident there's not enough of a soul for you to transfer yourself into a mindless undead. All right. However, it actually weakens your posistion, because it indicates that you can transfer yourself into an intelligent undead. Or, in other words, intelligent undead do have souls. Now, obviously, that soul was gone when they died, so how did it return? The only answer is: through whatever process made the creature undead. Thus we have the following situation: Animating the dead does do something to their souls (which we already knew from the raise dead limitation, in part). Whatever this "something" is is not sufficient in power to completely affect the undead's soul if it's caused by a spell or effect as weak as Animate Dead (since it can't produce intelligent undead). This is in line with the fact that Animate Dead is weaker than Raise Dead. Intelligent undead have souls. Nonintellignent undead either don't at all, or don't have enough for the purposes of Magic Jar. Thus, you have two possibilities: A) Animate Dead is fundamentally different from the other undead animation spells, in that it just pumps the undead full of negative energy and animates them that way (replacing whatever positive "life force" a creature might have), while the others actually need to force the soul back to get "better" undead. B) Animate Dead is a lesser form of the better animation spells, and as such lacks the power to force the soul back into the body, thus resulting in inferior (or possibly even pseudo-) undead.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 03:43 PM	Thank you for the definition. I think it makes sense that other undead creation spells should work differently from animate dead because they make very different kinds of undead. I doesn't make it evident that there's not enough of a soul to transfer, it makes it clear that there is no soul period. It does not say anything about there being any fragment of soul, it just says there is none. The words "mindless undead don't have souls" are in parentheses, indicating a general rule simply being brought up as a reminder, but that is a matter of opinion, not fact. Is there any peice of text in the rules that says mindless undead have souls?
Pentar 06-10-04, 03:46 PM	A) Animate Dead is fundamentally different from the other undead animation spells, in that it just pumps the undead full of negative energy and animates them that way (replacing whatever positive "life force" a creature might have), while the others actually need to force the soul back to get "better" undead. B) Animate Dead is a lesser form of the better animation spells, and as such lacks the power to force the soul back into the body, thus resulting in inferior (or possibly even pseudo-) undead. I think A) is your best bet there. I agree with that assessment as well. If you note the creature information for the individual undeads, many of them spawn their own kind. I recall some (was it a Ghast or Ghoul?) that anyone slain by such a creature rises to become one. I believe Vampires operate in very similar manners. Liches are created by the a spellcaster willingly undergoing an undeath transformation. As an additional note, there is a 6th level Arcane spell called Create Undead which operates solely on creating much more powerful undead types, ones with intelligence and sentience. Animate Dead is only a 3rd level spell and thus only creates weaker forms of undead - and as you said, are basically pumped full of negative energy, thus explaining their evil alignment.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-10-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. I doesn't make it evident that there's not enough of a soul to transfer, it makes it clear that there is no soul period. It does not say anything about there being any fragment of soul, it just says there is none. It's not "not enough of a soul to transfer", it's "not enough power to transfer the whole soul". Animate Dead is just not powerful enough to get the creature's soul back fully in it's body. Why should it? Raise Dead is the first spell that can properly do that, and it's 5th level.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 04:04 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji It's not "not enough of a soul to transfer", it's "not enough power to transfer the whole soul". Animate Dead is just not powerful enough to get the creature's soul back fully in it's body. Why should it? Raise Dead is the first spell that can properly do that, and it's 5th level. You're just pulling that out of nowhere. No scentence in the rulebooks hint at anything like that. This argument is not about what you can come up with to explain things or what should be, it is about what the rules say.
Luminosity 06-10-04, 05:01 PM	You're just pulling that out of nowhere. No scentence in the rulebooks hint at anything like that. This argument is not about what you can come up with to explain things or what should be, it is about what the rules say. And you're claiming positive proof of how a spell works based only on the targets defined in a completely unrelated spell description. You don't know who wrote those spells, you don't know the writers' intents, and you don't know why Animate Dead was [Evil] in 3.0 even though it created neutral creatures. Do you know why Skeletons and Zombies, as they are now a template creature type, retain certain abilities of the corpses they inhabit? What you have, RMGCLF, is a suggestion. It is an implication. It is evidence. It is not proof.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-10-04, 05:05 PM	*sighs* Let's go over it again, then. 1- Dead people's souls depart from their bodies. 2- Bringing a creature back to life brings the soul back. 3- Spells can create undead. 4- Intelligent undead have souls. 5- Unintelligent undead do not have souls for the purpose of spells that affect souls. 6- Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. 7- Raise Dead is a 5th level spell. 8- Create undead is a 6th level spell. 9- All undead brought to 0 hp are destroyed and cannot be animated again. 10- They can be raised after being destroyed however. 11- Raising an undead creature brings back the creature it was before it became undead, not the undead itself. 12- An person who is animated as any undead cannot be brought back to life or reincarnated as long as the undead exists. All the statements above are taken from the D&D source material. I'll assume you're not going to be bringing any of these into question (especially since many are points you yourself have brought forward), and move on to deductions. From 3, 4, 8, 9, 11 and 12, we can deduce this: A) The soul present in undead created with Create Undead is not a new soul, created by magic, but the corpses's original soul. We know this because otherwise, Create Undead would be creating new souls every time it was cast. If that was the case, you could ressurect or reincarnate a dead creature while it's body was an undead, since its soul would still be available for such spells to work on. Also, you could True Ressurection a vampire after it was destroyed, and the original being brought back to life, since there would be a "vampire" soul floating around somewhere. But you can't do either of those things (11 and 12). B) All undead creation spell have something to do with the soul of the corpse animated This is an extrapolation of A and the previous rules. Since undead animated with Create Undead have a soul (4), and we've proved that it's the dead person's soul (A), and Animate Dead has more in common with Create Undead than it does with Animate Object (Both are necromancies, both unintelligent undead and intelligent undead have the same characteristics in regards to raising), the logical conclusion is that the limitations on unintellignent undead being raised (12) are also caused by the same causes that would prevent an intelligent undead from being raised (Occam's razor). This is further supported with spells like Soul Bind, which indicates that as long as a bound creature's soul in unavailable, the creature can't be raised. Barring any indication to the contrary, it is prefectly logical to assume that an unintelligent and an intelligent undead can't be raised for the same reason. That particular reason being because their souls aren't "free" for it. Thus, even the lowly Animate Dead does something to your soul. C) Raise Dead is Higher level than Animate Dead, but lower level than Create Undead. This doesn't need explanation D) Raise Dead is the lowest level spell that can bring back a soul from death without a deleterious effect on the soul's receptacle This is deduced from B), C) and point 6. Animate Dead does very bad things to the animated person. You loose skills, intelligence, in some cases body mass, hit dice and lots of other things being brought back as a zombie or skeleton. Create Undead, though, can actually give you a great deal of benefits (like the Vampire template). Raise Dead, on the other hand, just brings you back to life the way you were. So finally: E) The undead created by Animate Dead are considered "soulless" by spells that affect souls because the spell doesn't have enough power to fully bring the soul back to the body being animated. The logical conculsion from all the available data is thus. The so-called soulless undead don't have a detectable soul for the purpose of spells like Magic Jar and Soul Trap because Animate Dead isn't powerful enough to do a decent job of it. Which is exactly what I meant when I said Animate Dead is just not powerful enough to get the creature's soul back fully in it's body. Why should it? Raise Dead is the first spell that can properly do that, and it's 5th level.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 05:44 PM	Originally posted by Luminosity [B]And you're claiming positive proof of how a spell works based only on the targets defined in a completely unrelated spell description. You don't know who wrote those spells, you don't know the writers' intents, and you don't know why Animate Dead was [Evil] in 3.0 even though it created neutral creatures. Do you know why Skeletons and Zombies, as they are now a template creature type, retain certain abilities of the corpses they inhabit? Because they still have the corpses physical aspects such as claws, arm size, basic body structure, etc. Their mental abilities, skills, feats, alignment subtypes, etc. all have no correlation to the original creature.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-10-04, 05:47 PM	*reads Kyuketsukiouji's post* Okay, now that's more like it. I would say that given those supporting statements I am forced to grudgingly agree with you that the core rules have more support for mindless undead containing trapped souls.
lanilifar 06-10-04, 09:04 PM	:OMG! I never thought I'd read the above. That long list which convinced you, can be summed up as follows: By Naeron many posts ago: So someone who has been turned into an undead creature cannot be brought back to life.This strongly implies that something is "binding" their souls even though Magci Jar states that mindless undead have no souls.
Pentar 06-11-04, 01:18 AM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji This is an extrapolation of A and the previous rules. Since undead animated with Create Undead have a soul (4), and we've proved that it's the dead person's soul (A), and Animate Dead has more in common with Create Undead than it does with Animate Object (Both are necromancies, both unintelligent undead and intelligent undead have the same characteristics in regards to raising), the logical conclusion is that the limitations on unintellignent undead being raised (12) are also caused by the same causes that would prevent an intelligent undead from being raised (Occam's razor). This is further supported with spells like Soul Bind, which indicates that as long as a bound creature's soul in unavailable, the creature can't be raised. Barring any indication to the contrary, it is prefectly logical to assume that an unintelligent and an intelligent undead can't be raised for the same reason. That particular reason being because their souls aren't "free" for it. Thus, even the lowly Animate Dead does something to your soul. Very well said... Just want to ask one question, as devil's advocate, although I'm sure you have the answer for it: Could it be that the reason you cannot raise/ressurect someone who is dead if they are presently in an undead state, is because (following your own deductions) they are undead in their own bodies? That is to say: You need a body to ressurect or raise someone. If that body is presently off busily being undead, then... you can't very well raise that same body, can you? The animated body (however it was animated), needs to be destroyed first, it's animating magic dispelled, before the ressurection/raise effects can work on restoring it to "life". Just a thought really... :)
Hypersmurf 06-11-04, 03:35 AM	Originally posted by Pentar The animated body (however it was animated), needs to be destroyed first, it's animating magic dispelled, before the ressurection/raise effects can work on restoring it to "life". So is the argument that someone whose body has been Animated as a skeleton or zombie, which has then been destroyed, can or cannot be raised/reincarnated? (As in Raise Dead and Reincarnate, not Resurrection.) Do we consider them to be "someone who had been turned into an undead creature", or not? -Hyp.
Zelphi 06-11-04, 06:58 AM	Err no... Look at the Undead you create with Create Undead and Create Greater Undead. They aren't mindless. They all have an int value and a personality attribute. Why can't you raise a person who's been turned into a member of the Undead? Because they're not dead. There's a huge difference between Animating a corpse and creating a setient Undead creature that can think. All you're doing with Animate dead is taking someone's dead corpse and animating it. There is no aspect of the former user at all. Template because it applies to corpse created from, not the person it's created from. Create Undead would bind a soul, it comes from a person. I'll prove it soon... Look at death effects to.
Hypersmurf 06-11-04, 07:04 AM	Originally posted by Zelphi Why can't you raise a person who's been turned into a member of the Undead? Because they're not dead. But Raise Dead and Reincarnate won't work on someone who has been turned into an undead creature, even if the undead creature is subsequently destroyed. For that, you need Resurrection. So it has nothing to do with the fact that they're 'not dead'. Even once they're indisputably dead, Raise Dead still won't work. -Hyp.
Tenzhi 06-11-04, 07:26 AM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji A) The soul present in undead created with Create Undead is not a new soul, created by magic, but the corpses's original soul. We know this... ...is not true, because the spell works even if the soul that originally belonged to the corpse has been destroyed or is forcefully contained elsewhere. The target/requirements of the create undead spells are not "One corpse and its intact soul."
Zelphi 06-11-04, 08:15 AM	Raise dead and Reincarnate - Reincarnate first A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age. So yes you can destroy an undead creature and reincarnate it. Raise dead... same... so again, can raise after destroyed the undead creature... except raise dead doesn't really work with destroyed corpses. Undead are destroyed when they're reduced to 0 HP. Raise dead can't function on a destroyed undead... Now for that spell I was looking for... Speak with Dead Necromancy [Language-Dependent] Level: Clr 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 10 ft. Target: One dead creature Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates; see text Spell Resistance: No You grant the semblance of life and intellect to a corpse, allowing it to answer several questions that you put to it. You may ask one question per two caster levels. Unasked questions are wasted if the duration expires. The corpse’s knowledge is limited to what the creature knew during life, including the languages it spoke (if any). Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all. This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information. Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned. This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature. So you see now that a dead corpse does not have the soul inside it, but has a memory or imprint of the life it had. Resurection - can return an undead who has then been destroyed, this is part of the requirements for it's target. You need the remains or part of their remains, etc... targeting issue. True resurection - similar. You cannot raise an undead person. Animate Dead does not need a soul, just a dead person. Although I don't have the sources on me, if you look into the nature of the afterlife (for whatever campaign setting) it'll go on about people who can't enter "heaven" or "Hell" whilst their body is being used for an undead creature... their soul is still free, but it cannot go anywhere - it doesn't have a body to return to. I believe they're trapped on the Negative energy plane. Hence the potential for a Ghost to exist whilst it's body acts as a Zombie. The nature of Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is disputable. But as you can now see - simple undead animation doesn't require the soul, and in fact it is possible that all undead don't even require a soul at all. The fate of the soul when it departs isn't tied to the fate of it's body. Only with Clone can a spirit return to a body created for it. That leads to any spell that can create a new body for a spirit can return anyone who is dead. Leading to the potential of your cloned self meeting your undead formed self. Animate Dead doesn't bind the soul. Animate dead doesn't even need a soul.
Hypersmurf 06-11-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by Zelphi So yes you can destroy an undead creature and reincarnate it. No, you can't. Reincarnate does not work on a creature who has been turned into an undead. Resurrection does, as long as the undead has been destroyed. Compare the language of the spells. If someone is turned into an undead which is then destroyed, neither Rasie Dead nor Reincarnate will affect them. Resurrection or True Resurrection is required. -Hyp.
Pentar 06-11-04, 11:48 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf So is the argument that someone whose body has been Animated as a skeleton or zombie, which has then been destroyed, can or cannot be raised/reincarnated? (As in Raise Dead and Reincarnate, not Resurrection.) Do we consider them to be "someone who had been turned into an undead creature", or not? -Hyp. My point is that perhaps the reason the Raise Dead and Ressurection spells don't work on "mindless" undead is not because their souls are bound or otherwise unavailable, but because their -bodies- are unavailable. The suggestion previous to this was that the Raise/Ressurect spells fail because the soul is unable to return. I submit that it's not because of that reason for mindless undead, but rather because their bodies are currently "not dead". These spells function on a corpse - a /dead/ corpse. A corpse animated by magic is not -dead-, thus the spell fails to function. I still believe mindless undead are infact, mindless. Their souls have nothing to do with it. A person slain by a death-effect that destroys their soul can still have their body animated. Their soul has nothing to do with the animating process. It can be said though, I think, that someone who's soul has been destroyed cannot be brought back as an intelligent undead (i.e. by the Create Undead spell), although that is not specifically stated as a limitation of the spell. Or... and this is a little more insidious... but perhaps the spell doesn't necessarily need to capture the soul of the original body, but rather, any free soul presently available. :) I don't know if there's any text on it, but I don't think there's any stipulation to say that Create Undead requires that it binds the soul of the /original/ creature back to his body... Anyway, the whole discussion revolves around whether or not mindless undead (skeletons/zombies) have souls. I don't think they do. Saying that raising the dead on their bodies doesn't work as proof that they do possess a soul is faulty, because the spell likely fails not for lack of being able to get to the soul, but because the body itself is unavailable for ressurection.
Shatteredtower 06-11-04, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf No, you can't. Reincarnate does not work on a creature who has been turned into an undead. Resurrection does, as long as the undead has been destroyed. Compare the language of the spells. If someone is turned into an undead which is then destroyed, neither Rasie Dead nor Reincarnate will affect them. Resurrection or True Resurrection is required. There's a problem with reading the language of the spells, however -- it contradicts the rules for undead. Which is the primary source in this regard? No matter which way you rule it, things get ugly. For example, while reincarnate and raise dead state that you cannot use them on undead creatures, are they undead once they've been destroyed? If not, then the spells work. However, if you rule that it doesn't matter, not because of something those spells say, but because resurrection and true resurrection say that they will work if cast on a creature that was made undead and then destroyed. It's a bit of a stretch, but it implies that destruction won't help with those other spells. The trouble is that reading it this way means that if you are turned into a wraith, destroyed, resurrected, and immediately slain, raise dead will not work on you. You've been undead -- latest status as living or undead doesn't matter, according to the rules. I believe it should to cover this matter, but it doesn't. However, if you read the rules for undead in the Monster Manual, it says that raise dead and reincarnate don't affect undead creatures, but that resurrection and true resurrection turn undead creatures into the creatures that they were when they were alive. It makes no mention of having to destroy them first, whereupon they wouldn't be creatures, but objects -- and thus the entry about what these spells could or couldn't do for them would be entirely moot, because it's listed as affecting creatures. So is there a difference between the corpse of a dead creature (the target for raise dead et al) and that of a destroyed undead creature? Liches everywhere must hope so, or else their destruction is as easily accomplished as holding them in one place for ten minutes and performing a resurrection, then slaying them, thus bypassing the phylactery. And then there's the matter of determining what kind of creature a ghoul was in unlife, provided that you'll ever meet an adventuring party willing to lay down 10,000 gp a shot to redeem all ghouls from undeath. The trouble is determining which we call the primary source here. The PHB is the primary source on spells, but the MM is the primary source on monsters. The spell entry says that the undead can be resurrected after it's been destroyed, while the monster type entry says that the creature can be affected by ressurection. Which is invalid: what the spells say about the creatures or what the creatures say about the spells? The fact that ressurection does not actually state that the destruction of the undead is required -- it states that undeath and then destruction don't prevent the resurrection. Since it is possible to interpret that sentence without it contradicting the MM entry, then A+B allows for C, but A and B both are not required to allow for A. Conflict can thus be avoided by ruling in favour of raise dead being able to affect destroyed, rather than active, undead. However, then there's the matter of these words from the PHB glossary's definition of "dead": "...magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body to either full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device)." When is the creature considered dead? When it becomes undead or when it is destroyed as undead? Neither? We know that it's quite clear on the subject of restoring the creature to a living state, but undeath isn't a living state, nor is undead a condition as defined by the DMG on pp 300-301, in the Condition Summary section. It should be as simple as Hypersmurf claims it is, but it's not. Even if it was, the "can't be raised even after being resurrected" clause has to be closed in regard to undead status.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-11-04, 12:20 PM	If you accept that Create Undead is making an entirely new soul, you are opening yourself up to a great deal of problems. For one, where does that soul come from, and where does it go after you destroy the undead? You are creating new souls out of thin air every time you cast these spells? No other non-epic spells can create souls, why can a lowly level 6 spell do it? If the soul you manifacture has an existance separate from the original body's soul, you should be able to Ressurect the original soul from a lock of hair or something similar while his body is still undead, since you'd be able to recreate a new body for it.
Pentar 06-11-04, 02:12 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji If you accept that Create Undead is making an entirely new soul, you are opening yourself up to a great deal of problems. For one, where does that soul come from, and where does it go after you destroy the undead? You are creating new souls out of thin air every time you cast these spells? No other non-epic spells can create souls, why can a lowly level 6 spell do it? If the soul you manifacture has an existance separate from the original body's soul, you should be able to Ressurect the original soul from a lock of hair or something similar while his body is still undead, since you'd be able to recreate a new body for it. Good point about creating a new soul - but that's not what I meant. I simply meant that the spell grabs any free-floating available soul and binds it to the undead body. Sure, that's incredibly cruel, but hey, it's evil magic. :) As for Ressurecting someone with a fingernail while the rest of the body is in the state of undeath, I submit that this can be done. If you have a piece of the original body part of someone and the /rest/ of the pieces of that person have been animated with an Animate Dead spell, then I suggest that the True Ressurection spell can in fact ressurect that person wholely. However, that piece you have cannot be part of the undead, if you take my meaning. So let's say you have skeleton. You cut off it's hand and run away with it, while the rest of the skeleton is still animated and active. The way I'd rule it, is that True Ressurection would fail to ressurect this body, since the body part is still technically "undead" (the undead is not yet destroyed for the spell to work). But if you have a locke of hair from a person who died and was animated again - and the hair was from the body of the person prior to them being animated, then I would submit that True Ressurection would work. It would, of course, be incredibly creepy for the newly ressurected person to come face to face with his own corpse... :)
R.M.G.C.L.F. 06-11-04, 03:06 PM	Actually, you can't ressurect somebody while they are in an undead state. I think the most clear and conclusive point here was made by shatteredtower "Either way you rule it, it gets messy". The very fact that this debate has gone on for more than three pages and both sides have large amounts of vague evidence but very little direct statements supports that.
Tenzhi 06-12-04, 04:37 AM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji For one, where does that soul come from, Presumably from the Negative Energy Plane. and where does it go after you destroy the undead? Presumably back to the Negative Energy Plane. You are creating new souls out of thin air every time you cast these spells? Not necessarily creating... If the soul you manifacture has an existance separate from the original body's soul, you should be able to Ressurect the original soul from a lock of hair or something similar while his body is still undead, since you'd be able to recreate a new body for it. And you can - if the person wasn't actually turned into undead. There's a difference between turning a person into undead and turning a person's corpse into undead. The corpse is no longer the person/creature, so if you turn it into undead you are not turning the creature/person into undead. Otherwise you could do silly things like prevent someone from ever being resurrected by hacking off their hand and turning it into a crawling claw.
Hypersmurf 06-12-04, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi And you can - if the person wasn't actually turned into undead. There's a difference between turning a person into undead and turning a person's corpse into undead. Of course, if the person's corpse has been animated, you have a problem with the 'dead creature touched' target. Their corpse is not currently a dead creature. But neither has their body been destroyed, so you still need to touch it to Raise/Resurrect/True Resurrect them. So you end up having to destroy the zombie or skeleton in order to be able to Resurrect them anyway. -Hyp.
Tenzhi 06-12-04, 05:16 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Of course, if the person's corpse has been animated, you have a problem with the 'dead creature touched' target. Conversely, if their corpse has been used to create an incorporeal undead that won't be so much of a problem.
Hypersmurf 06-12-04, 05:20 AM	Originally posted by Tenzhi Conversely, if their corpse has been used to create an incorporeal undead that won't be so much of a problem. But they're all intelligent - and wasn't it decided that intelligent undead are a case of the character being turned into an undead creature, not just their body? In which case the "You can Resurrect a creature who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed" clause kicks in. -Hyp.
Tenzhi 06-12-04, 05:30 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf But they're all intelligent - and wasn't it decided that intelligent undead are a case of the character being turned into an undead creature, not just their body? Not at all. Because, again, the person's soul doesn't have to be intact for the Create Undead spells to work. Only spells or effects that actually change a living person into an undead actually change the person into undead.
strange_person 07-02-04, 02:40 PM	Let's think about this from the perspective of the gods: Cleric casts Raise Dead on a former follower that was killed and reanimated as a skeleton. God: I can't Raise this guy. He's not dead. Cleric: But he was slain by yon foul Necromancer! God: He's still walking around. That means he's not dead. Sure he's missing some flesh, but you fix that with Regenerate, not Raise. Cleric destroys the skeleton and tries again. God: I can't raise this guy. Can't find the soul. Cleric: But the petitioner that corresponds to his soul is hanging around in your realm, right now! God: Sorry, the "soul" that was in him when he was last up and walking (the energy from the Animate Dead spell and the black gem) no longer exists, and you aren't important enough (high enough level, with acess to better spells) for me to look back further than that. Besides, his body isn't even CLOSE to intact. Next week: Why Resurection (incl. the True kind) doesn't work while the undead creature remains.
R.M.G.C.L.F. 07-28-04, 12:31 PM	I like that explanation strange person.
E-Arkham 07-28-04, 01:54 PM	Here's a scenario to ponder. A Wizard casts Magic Jar, thereby putting his soul in a large crystal shaped like Mickey Mouse. While he's away, a nasty Necromancer comes by and decides to use the body for nefarious deeds. 1) Can the wizard's "lifeless" body (as per the Magic Jar spell) be animated by Animate Dead? If not, then what if the Necromancer hacked up the body first, ensuring the body is dead? Would it qualify then? 2) What if the Necromancer used Create Undead on the body, whether "lifeless" or hacked up (IE, actually killed). Where is the soul? In the crystal Mickey Mouse or in the sentient undead? 3) What happens when the Magic Jar runs out and the body is not destroyed, but walking around as a skeleton or zombie? What if it's walking about as a sentient undead, like a shadow or spectre? Second scenario. A Wizard walks into a bar -- whoops, no, I mean a medusa's lair. He turns to stone. That darn Necromancer finds him again. 1) The Necromancer breaks the head off the statue and then casts Stone to Flesh. Can the corpse be animated as undead? What if he drills a hole through the statue's heart and then casts Stone to Flesh? 2) If a person is a statue after receiving a Flesh to Stone spell (IE, not merely the skin is changed to stone, but every part external and internal), doesn't Stone to Flesh require that some stone be turned back into skeletal structure, some back into veins and circulatory system, some back into skin and hair, etc? What would prevent or allow this process to occur on a statue that was crafted? As an aside, when a zombie or skeleton is destroyed, is it destroyed in the sense of the Destroy seed or Disintegrate spell types (IE, the "purely destructive force" referenced by said spell types)? Things to ponder. Kep
redraven 07-28-04, 07:27 PM	1) Can the wizard's "lifeless" body (as per the Magic Jar spell) be animated by Animate Dead? If not, then what if the Necromancer hacked up the body first, ensuring the body is dead? Would it qualify then? By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless. [...] When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead. [...] If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). Although the body is lifeless, it is not in fact dead, according to the spell description. Animate Dead can only affect dead creatures, and so could not target a lifeless (but not dead) body. If the necromancer "destroyed" the lifeless body, it is unlikely he would subsequently be able to use Animate Dead (since the skeletons/zombies remain animated until "destroyed"). This suggests the assumption that a lifeless body cannot be killed or otherwise rendered dead (but it can be "destroyed"). If the necromancer cuts off the head of the magic jar wizard's body, the body remains lifeless instead of dead. At the end of the magic jar spell, the wizard's soul would attempt to go back into the decapitated body, and the wizard would presumably be slain immediately. The body at this point might (see below) be a legal target for Animate Dead. Of course, this begs the question of whether you can even reanimate a corpse that is missing it's head. The black onyx gem has to be inserted into the mouth or eye socket of the corpse, but it seems a bit silly to assume that a decapitated head counts as a corpse. The necromancer might be in the clear if he, say, removed all of the wizard's organs from the lifeless body or similar - the mechanics of a lifeless body taking hit point damage is decidedly vague however. 2) What if the Necromancer used Create Undead on the body, whether "lifeless" or hacked up (IE, actually killed). Where is the soul? In the crystal Mickey Mouse or in the sentient undead? As covered above, the spell cannot be cast on a lifeless body. The necromancer would have to wait until the wizard's soul attempts to return to his original body before the body is considered dead. This suggests that a person's soul and body are linked in a fundamental way, from a game mechanic point of view. 3) What happens when the Magic Jar runs out and the body is not destroyed, but walking around as a skeleton or zombie? What if it's walking about as a sentient undead, like a shadow or spectre? Moot, as pointed out above. 1) The Necromancer breaks the head off the statue and then casts Stone to Flesh. Can the corpse be animated as undead? What if he drills a hole through the statue's heart and then casts Stone to Flesh? It depends on whether Animate Dead works or not on a dead creature missing a head (see above). The "drilling a hole" method would probably work. 2) If a person is a statue after receiving a Flesh to Stone spell (IE, not merely the skin is changed to stone, but every part external and internal), doesn't Stone to Flesh require that some stone be turned back into skeletal structure, some back into veins and circulatory system, some back into skin and hair, etc? What would prevent or allow this process to occur on a statue that was crafted? The key point is that a crafted statue was never a petrified creature to begin with. Since the statue was never a petrified creature, the second part of the spell takes effect: The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) The way the spell refers to the word corpse can be misleading, but there is no discrepancy in the rules (beyond the stone golem interaction as pointed out by others). You can target the "corpse" with Animate Dead, but the spell automatically fails because the "corpse" is not a dead creature - it is a mass of fleshy substance. Animate Dead and Create Undead require either a dead creature or a dead body and the results of a Stone to Flesh targeting normal stone create neither. I agree that the fleshy substance created by Stone to Flesh should not be called a corpse, and I would also submit that the spell Create Undead should remain consistent with Animate Undead in requiring a dead creature instead of merely a dead "body" due to the abstract interactions between these spells (i.e. is a "dead body" a "corpse," from a game mechanics point of view?). Either that, or the term "corpse" needs to be conclusively defined, perhaps in one of Skip's Rules of the Game articles. -Red Raven
IceFractal 08-06-04, 12:50 AM	Ok, the main argument for undead trapping the creature's soul has been that that being undead prevents being brought back by these spells: Raise Dead, Ressurection, Reincarnate, and True Ressurection. I will now attempt to prove that being undead only prevents these spells from working for the same reason the body being hidden but not destroyed prevents the spells from working. Raise Dead, Ressurection, and Reincarnate all have Range: Touch, and as the body no longer exists (it is now an undead creature, and no longer the person's body), so that covers those. Now True Ressurection doesn't require the corpse ... but only if it doesn't exist, if the corpse exists, then the range is still Touch. Here's some quotes from the SRD: Raise Dead ... Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched So you must touch a dead, not undead, creature. True Ressurection ... This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method). Bolding mine. 1) So the range is still Touch, and the target is still Dead creature touched, as with raised dead. 2) The exception to this range and target only applies "whose bodies have been destroyed". A body which is now a zombie is not destroyed, and it is also not a valid target for Raise Dead. 3) So if you killed someone, preserved the body, and hid it, True Ressurection wouldn't work until the body was found or destroyed. This was discussed in another thread about assassination. This, and not soul binding, is why undead creation prevents ressurection. Ok, that was the rules, now here's my take on the spells. Note that everything above is by the rules exactly while what's below is my opinion and shouldn't reflect on the conclusion above. Ok, first Animate Dead: This spell just pumps the body full of negative energy, not involving souls at all. As the resulting undead are mindless, I rule them (and the spell) to be neutral. Negative energy, by the way, is not evil, there are many threads on the subject, and negative energy is no more evil than fire. Both are dangerous, both are also part of the natural order, and too much of the reverse of either (cold or positive energy) is generally fatal. Also, death itself is part of the natural order and not evil, so just because negative energy is linked to death doesn't make it evil. Next, people who become undead after being killed, from the higher-level undead creation spells or the create spawn ability. IMO, a malevolent spirit possesses their body and retains many of their abilities through stored memories. This is my opinion based on the fact that the resulting undead are usually evil but the person's alignment doesn't change if they are later brought back to life. These spells are evil as they bring a malevolent spirit into the world, basically for the same reason summoning evil creatures is evil. Finally, people who become undead intentionally (like liches). In this case, the person's soul really is part of the undead, and if they are evil as an undead creature they stay evil if brought back to life.
Naeron 08-06-04, 01:05 PM	Originally posted by Zelphi <snip> There is nothing that says that Animate Dead traps the soul of a person? Do you have even one line that says otherwise? If you read what I'd said you see that resurection is nothing. You can't raise them because A) They aren't dead OR B) You don't have their dead corpse to return them to. Soul cannot return to the body of an animated corpse - because it's in use. It might prevent the soul from returning to a body used for animate dead purposes, but that doesn't stop the soul from going elsewhere? Do you have anything that says otherwise at all? Where the hell this ludicrous idea came from in the beggining I have no idea. Mainly because of True Resurrection and Reincarnate. True Resurrection inherits the properties of raise dead but it does not require a body to function and can return to life someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. Reincarnate places the soul into a brand new body, but still cannot bring back someone turned into an undead creature. So it is there in black and white, if you have been turned into an undead creature you cannot be reincarnated, a spell that creates a new body for you. Now although it might be argued that casting animate dead on a corpse does not stop spells because you are targetting a corpse, which is not the creature this is inconsistent with the fact that when creatures are turned into undead by other undead it happens after their death so it is again the corpse being afftected. Nothing in the raising rules differentiate between being turned into mindless or intelligent undead. So the implication is that turning someone into a zombie after their death prevents them being returned to life just as casting create undead on the corpse does, or if they die from level drain and rise as a undead. Now the fact that skeletons or zombies are mindless does not preclude the "binding" of the soul, all it needs to mean is that the magic that animates dead is not powerful to put the persons soul in control of the body. The soul could still be magically used to power the animation but without manifesting itself in a way that gives intelligence and skills or that can be affected by magic jar. Originally posted by R.M.G.C.L.F. Because they still have the corpses physical aspects such as claws, arm size, basic body structure, etc. Their mental abilities, skills, feats, alignment subtypes, etc. all have no correlation to the original creature. Unfortunately not quite true. If you look at the Zombie Template you will notice " A zombie retains ... weapon proficiencies of the base creature." So a Human Fighter turned into a zombie retains it martial weapon proficencies. This is solely a factor of the base creatures class not their race.
IceFractal 08-20-04, 06:10 PM	Yes, reincarnate creates a new body ... but it still requires the old body. Read the spell, and then see my post above, it spells out my point with rules quotes and everything. As for why zombies retain weapon proficiencies, its my opion that the real reason was so that if you animates some dead guards to act as tomb guardians they would still be able to use their swords/whatever. There are various in game explananations, including "its magic", but my take on it is that muscle memory is presevered, to a small extent.
TheGogmagog 08-21-04, 09:33 AM	IceFractal has the best proof that create undead does not trap the soul in any way. R.M.G.C.L.F. might do better in convincing people that it doesn't trap the soul by understanding why people think it does. The main agument presented it the True Ressurection which IceFractal presented. The main reason think that it does is because that's the way in second (or first) edition. I also suspect that RMGCLF would then proceed to take the proof that the soul is not trapped to argue with his dm that you can have a Good Necromancer who has an army of undead cleaning his house and doing his laundry. I believe I recall a discussion about the soul thing being removed in 3.5 on Monte Cooks site. Monte disagreed with it, and I think he has was only allowed to add a sidebar (not official) in the BOVD (also not official). I don't have the book, but it is often brought up in these discussions. The FACT does remain that Animate Dead has the [Evil] descriptor. And no ammount of discussion will make that not so.