Cleave after hitting a mirror-image possible ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleave after hitting a mirror-image possible ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mirror-Image
08-23-04, 10:55 AM i just want to know if you see a problem with that . i dont see any, but perhaps im missing something in the RAW.

thanks.
tarkin
08-23-04, 11:06 AM Technically it is legal (Sage confirmed it is allowed), but I personally have a huge problem with it.

Cleave is supposed to help you when you HIT your opponent - but when you are fighting a WIZARD with Mirror Images, when you hit an image you are actually MISSING the wizard, not hiting what you wanted to.

And Cleave is the single most abusive feat around and is already too powerfull, there is no need to boost it's power even more by letting you get rid of images.

Finally and most important, If you let people cleave Mirror Images, then suddenly the wizards start to say Hey, by the rules of Mirror Image I don't have to put them all in the same space, I demand the right to spread them around This makes dealing with Mirror Image much more complex.

So, while it is officially legal to cleave through Mirror Images, I consider it to be a bad ruling that causes far more problems than it solves.
RiotGearEpsilon
08-23-04, 01:39 PM Mirror Image is way more powerful than a similar 2nd level spell, blur, if you don't let Cleave destroy multiple images.
Tony Vargas
08-23-04, 01:45 PM Yes, you can cleave off a mirror image. They have an AC, you can swing at them, hit them, and pop them, so why not follow-through and pop another one.

I don't really think that's 'missing' the caster. You pick one of the images you can see, and attack it - the mechanic may be random, since the default way of handling it is putting them all in one square, and there's no way to tell them apart, but, that's still what's happening. If a caster wants a miss chance, he should cast Blur, not Mirror Image. If your DM were going with the idea that hitting an image is 'missing,' tell him "I try to guess which of the images is an illusion, and hit one of them to dispel it." That way, you /are/ hitting what you're aiming at. :P (and, if you hit the caster, fine, you can't cleave off him...) :rolleyes:
tarkin
08-23-04, 02:38 PM Blur always sticks around for a lot longer than Mirror Images no matter which rule you give. Mirror Image is a short duration, safe for now spell, while Blur is a longer duration, protected but not safe.

And my point was that CLEAVE was over-powered already, if you think Mirror Image is over-powered than put limits on it, don't take the single most abusive feat and also let it destroy the images.

Illusions are things that are NOT there. Cleave requires you to hit a creature, to down it. You are not hitting a creature, you are hitting an illusions, i.e. things that are not there.

And the idea of lying to the DM and claiming that you are trying to hit the images is bull-crap. You don't care about hitting the images, no matter what words you spout. You really want to hit the mage no matter what words you spout.
Tony Vargas
08-23-04, 03:41 PM Actually, getting rid of the images can be an excellent tactical objective. It will make the caster that much easier to hit for the rest of your party. So, going for the images (or not caring whether the image you're aiming for is 'real' or not), is perfectly viable. I mean if a caster can try to Dispel Magic a Mirror Image spell, with the intent of removing the decoys and making the target easier for others to hit, why couldn't a combatant swat images with the same intent?

And, really, there's nothing remotely broken about Cleave or Great Cleave - unless you use silly interpretations like the 3.0 bag-o-rats, or the closest 3.5 AoO-loophole versions. Nor is Mirror Image particularly broken. It creates a number of decoys, which eat up your opponents' attacks against you. Opponents who can make a lot of attacks just chew through them more quickly - and things like Great Cleave or WWA let you make a /lot/ of attacks... Both perfecly reasonable.
Joklun
08-23-04, 03:50 PM A mirror image can create what? up to 8 images? starting with 1d4
Cleave you can use only once per round....
That leaves you with some room for the spell usefulness.

You must think great cleave which totally own mirror image...
but I cant find it overpowered like you do since it require another feat (cleave) to get great cleave as well as +4 Base attack.

Wizards can demand what they want in return for a figther cleaving images but its part of the base rules.... when I learn something in the base rules doesnt work like I though it was, I dont go to my DM to get compensation, I say cool Ill know this from now on.
Tony Vargas
08-23-04, 04:15 PM You're right. It does come down to the right spell for the job. You can't expect Mirror Image to still be there after dozens of attacks, anymore than you can expect a Wind Wall to stop swords or a Protection from Energy to stop poison. And, it's not like it throws balance out of whack: A caster can (if he survives the experience), make a mental note to use Blur instead of Mirror Image the next time he faces that anoying fighter/barb/whatever with GC, but a fighter who happens to know Great Cleave can't decide to know Blindfight, instead, because the wiz he's trying to hit is using Impr - excuse me, Greater - Invisibility, instead of Mirror Image.
Tonus
08-23-04, 08:44 PM Not according to the PHB(SRD):

"CLEAVE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats."

Cleave fails on several accounts. The target must be a creature (you were attacking an image), you must deal damage (you dispelled the image), and you must make it drop (and again you dispelled an image.) Going by the rulebook alone, one would have to conclude that cleave will not work on mirror images.

HOWEVER --

According to the FAQ, you *can* cleave a mirror image.

NOW -- my personal pet peeve with WotC is that they fail to make a distinction between the Errata (which exists to alter the rules) and the FAQ (which exists to explain the rules.) By rights, this should be in the Errata, since it contradicts the written rules. However, it has been changed ONLY in the FAQ, not in the Errata.
So (in only one of very many instances) we are left with a direct conflict between the written rules and the FAQ.

Now, according to the first paragraph of the Errata, when two sources conflict, unless there is an official errata file saying otherwise, the primary source is correct. And the most primary of primary sources is the PHB. Therefore, until such time as this is changed in the ERRATA, the PHB is correct and Cleave does not work on mirror images.
Nom
08-24-04, 01:23 AM Originally posted by Tonus
Cleave fails on several accounts. The target must be a creature (you were attacking an image), you must deal damage (you dispelled the image), and you must make it drop (and again you dispelled an image.) Going by the rulebook alone, one would have to conclude that cleave will not work on mirror images. Common sense suggests that anything the caster believes is a creature can reasonably count as a creature for the purposes of targetting spells and other effects. Feel free to ignore this proposal if you'd rather be literal than sensible.
You dealt damage. The quantity happens to be irrelevant.
"drop" is a loose, non-technical term which in the context obviously means "take it out of the fight". Unless you'd rather a discussion on how you cannot Cleave of incorporeal creatures since they never "drop", and likewise how you cannot Cleave in zero-G?
But all this misses the point. Cleave (and great cleave) are designed to allow a skilled combatant to remove "minor inconveniences" from the fray without using up attacks to do so. Imagine a fight scene where the hero (or, rarely, the villain) knocks aside or beats down minor mooks to concentrate on the real opponent. That's Cleave.

Low level summoning spells, mirror image, and a pet horde of kobolds all have the same effect: they provide extra targets to get in the way of attackers. Great Cleave is the counter to all of the above: you can remove inconveniences without real effort.

Besides, why shouldn't a specific 4th level (minimum) feat with 2 feats as pre-reqs be able to counteract a specific 2nd level spell?
[GSV] Kirstar
08-24-04, 03:48 AM i dont see a problem, but then I use the battle board and allow mirror images to be placed as per the spell, that drastically cuts down on cleaving.

cleave was the reason I started using the battle board, there is nothing more annoying that the fighter claiming he can cleave everyone.

with the battle board the figthers went down in usfulness.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mirror-Image 08-23-04, 10:55 AM	i just want to know if you see a problem with that . i dont see any, but perhaps im missing something in the RAW. thanks.
tarkin 08-23-04, 11:06 AM	Technically it is legal (Sage confirmed it is allowed), but I personally have a huge problem with it. Cleave is supposed to help you when you HIT your opponent - but when you are fighting a WIZARD with Mirror Images, when you hit an image you are actually MISSING the wizard, not hiting what you wanted to. And Cleave is the single most abusive feat around and is already too powerfull, there is no need to boost it's power even more by letting you get rid of images. Finally and most important, If you let people cleave Mirror Images, then suddenly the wizards start to say Hey, by the rules of Mirror Image I don't have to put them all in the same space, I demand the right to spread them around This makes dealing with Mirror Image much more complex. So, while it is officially legal to cleave through Mirror Images, I consider it to be a bad ruling that causes far more problems than it solves.
RiotGearEpsilon 08-23-04, 01:39 PM	Mirror Image is way more powerful than a similar 2nd level spell, blur, if you don't let Cleave destroy multiple images.
Tony Vargas 08-23-04, 01:45 PM	Yes, you can cleave off a mirror image. They have an AC, you can swing at them, hit them, and pop them, so why not follow-through and pop another one. I don't really think that's 'missing' the caster. You pick one of the images you can see, and attack it - the mechanic may be random, since the default way of handling it is putting them all in one square, and there's no way to tell them apart, but, that's still what's happening. If a caster wants a miss chance, he should cast Blur, not Mirror Image. If your DM were going with the idea that hitting an image is 'missing,' tell him "I try to guess which of the images is an illusion, and hit one of them to dispel it." That way, you /are/ hitting what you're aiming at. :P (and, if you hit the caster, fine, you can't cleave off him...) :rolleyes:
tarkin 08-23-04, 02:38 PM	Blur always sticks around for a lot longer than Mirror Images no matter which rule you give. Mirror Image is a short duration, safe for now spell, while Blur is a longer duration, protected but not safe. And my point was that CLEAVE was over-powered already, if you think Mirror Image is over-powered than put limits on it, don't take the single most abusive feat and also let it destroy the images. Illusions are things that are NOT there. Cleave requires you to hit a creature, to down it. You are not hitting a creature, you are hitting an illusions, i.e. things that are not there. And the idea of lying to the DM and claiming that you are trying to hit the images is bull-crap. You don't care about hitting the images, no matter what words you spout. You really want to hit the mage no matter what words you spout.
Tony Vargas 08-23-04, 03:41 PM	Actually, getting rid of the images can be an excellent tactical objective. It will make the caster that much easier to hit for the rest of your party. So, going for the images (or not caring whether the image you're aiming for is 'real' or not), is perfectly viable. I mean if a caster can try to Dispel Magic a Mirror Image spell, with the intent of removing the decoys and making the target easier for others to hit, why couldn't a combatant swat images with the same intent? And, really, there's nothing remotely broken about Cleave or Great Cleave - unless you use silly interpretations like the 3.0 bag-o-rats, or the closest 3.5 AoO-loophole versions. Nor is Mirror Image particularly broken. It creates a number of decoys, which eat up your opponents' attacks against you. Opponents who can make a lot of attacks just chew through them more quickly - and things like Great Cleave or WWA let you make a /lot/ of attacks... Both perfecly reasonable.
Joklun 08-23-04, 03:50 PM	A mirror image can create what? up to 8 images? starting with 1d4 Cleave you can use only once per round.... That leaves you with some room for the spell usefulness. You must think great cleave which totally own mirror image... but I cant find it overpowered like you do since it require another feat (cleave) to get great cleave as well as +4 Base attack. Wizards can demand what they want in return for a figther cleaving images but its part of the base rules.... when I learn something in the base rules doesnt work like I though it was, I dont go to my DM to get compensation, I say cool Ill know this from now on.
Tony Vargas 08-23-04, 04:15 PM	You're right. It does come down to the right spell for the job. You can't expect Mirror Image to still be there after dozens of attacks, anymore than you can expect a Wind Wall to stop swords or a Protection from Energy to stop poison. And, it's not like it throws balance out of whack: A caster can (if he survives the experience), make a mental note to use Blur instead of Mirror Image the next time he faces that anoying fighter/barb/whatever with GC, but a fighter who happens to know Great Cleave can't decide to know Blindfight, instead, because the wiz he's trying to hit is using Impr - excuse me, Greater - Invisibility, instead of Mirror Image.
Tonus 08-23-04, 08:44 PM	Not according to the PHB(SRD): "CLEAVE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats." Cleave fails on several accounts. The target must be a creature (you were attacking an image), you must deal damage (you dispelled the image), and you must make it drop (and again you dispelled an image.) Going by the rulebook alone, one would have to conclude that cleave will not work on mirror images. HOWEVER -- According to the FAQ, you can cleave a mirror image. NOW -- my personal pet peeve with WotC is that they fail to make a distinction between the Errata (which exists to alter the rules) and the FAQ (which exists to explain the rules.) By rights, this should be in the Errata, since it contradicts the written rules. However, it has been changed ONLY in the FAQ, not in the Errata. So (in only one of very many instances) we are left with a direct conflict between the written rules and the FAQ. Now, according to the first paragraph of the Errata, when two sources conflict, unless there is an official errata file saying otherwise, the primary source is correct. And the most primary of primary sources is the PHB. Therefore, until such time as this is changed in the ERRATA, the PHB is correct and Cleave does not work on mirror images.
Nom 08-24-04, 01:23 AM	Originally posted by Tonus Cleave fails on several accounts. The target must be a creature (you were attacking an image), you must deal damage (you dispelled the image), and you must make it drop (and again you dispelled an image.) Going by the rulebook alone, one would have to conclude that cleave will not work on mirror images. Common sense suggests that anything the caster believes is a creature can reasonably count as a creature for the purposes of targetting spells and other effects. Feel free to ignore this proposal if you'd rather be literal than sensible. You dealt damage. The quantity happens to be irrelevant. "drop" is a loose, non-technical term which in the context obviously means "take it out of the fight". Unless you'd rather a discussion on how you cannot Cleave of incorporeal creatures since they never "drop", and likewise how you cannot Cleave in zero-G? But all this misses the point. Cleave (and great cleave) are designed to allow a skilled combatant to remove "minor inconveniences" from the fray without using up attacks to do so. Imagine a fight scene where the hero (or, rarely, the villain) knocks aside or beats down minor mooks to concentrate on the real opponent. That's Cleave. Low level summoning spells, mirror image, and a pet horde of kobolds all have the same effect: they provide extra targets to get in the way of attackers. Great Cleave is the counter to all of the above: you can remove inconveniences without real effort. Besides, why shouldn't a specific 4th level (minimum) feat with 2 feats as pre-reqs be able to counteract a specific 2nd level spell?
[GSV] Kirstar 08-24-04, 03:48 AM	i dont see a problem, but then I use the battle board and allow mirror images to be placed as per the spell, that drastically cuts down on cleaving. cleave was the reason I started using the battle board, there is nothing more annoying that the fighter claiming he can cleave everyone. with the battle board the figthers went down in usfulness.