Cleric caster level +1? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric caster level +1? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jimmynids
02-18-08, 12:50 AM Ok guys, I am looking for spells or feats which add +1 to your caster level for at least your next Law spell.

To clarify, any +1 to your caster level that functions similar to the Law domain ability and stacks with it(any feats to increase your effective caster level for divine or law; any feats for sacking turn attempts to increase CL or any spell/spells that give a sacred/any bonus to caster level of next divine or law spell).

I am simply trying to increase my caster level to offset the Caster Level check of a scroll of a Lawful divine spell made by a caster 10 levels higher than me(normally an 11 or better would need to be rolled for this). Law Domain gives me a +1 to my caster level when I cast lawful spells.

I found one on my own - Divine Spell Power from CDiv. pg 80 - but I'm not sure if that would work on a scroll. It sounds good but I don't know. Anyways if you know of anything else that would help me out please post it here.

As it stands, I need to roll a 10 to cast a spell off of a scroll scribed by a caster with 10 levels more than myself, or less if divine spell power works for this. If it does, with my turn checks i can easily get to an additional +2 or +3 CL thus i would respectively need to roll an 8 or 7 to cast the scroll. Anyhow thanks for your help and support!
groveborn
02-18-08, 01:36 AM The (I think orange) Ioun Stone provides +1 caster level. It's pretty cheap. Also, there appears to be no solid (I stress solid) rule against those stacking to make a near unlimited number of caster level boosts.

I don't want that to turn to an argument, so I'll also chase the other side of the coin. The argument against would be same source doesn't stack. DM's discretion.

I'd say it does, but shouldn't. It's an unnamed bonus to caster levels, each from a unique source (even if they have the same name). You could ideally just make 100 different types of these things, each with a unique shape and name, and they still do the same thing. Rock of +1 to caster level, necklace of +1 to caster level... so on. It's abusable.
Nathreet
02-18-08, 01:51 AM Effects from the same/similar source never stack. A 2nd duplicate item or spell is not a unique source. That's just a player trying to bend the rules. B/c if that's not the same source then there's never a same source.

Custom magic items always require the DM's approval/adjustment, even if they follow the magic item creation guidelines.

A cleric with the law domain always gets +1 to his caster level when casting law spells. That ioun stone is another good way to add a caster level, and I'm sure there are some non-core books have their own items/spells.
Decinious
02-18-08, 12:20 PM Bead of karma from the strand of prayer beads is +4 for 10 mins...
groveborn
02-18-08, 02:13 PM Effects from the same/similar source never stack. A 2nd duplicate item or spell is not a unique source. That's just a player trying to bend the rules. B/c if that's not the same source then there's never a same source.

Custom magic items always require the DM's approval/adjustment, even if they follow the magic item creation guidelines.

A cleric with the law domain always gets +1 to his caster level when casting law spells. That ioun stone is another good way to add a caster level, and I'm sure there are some non-core books have their own items/spells.

Herein lies the catch. What makes them the same source? For spells the answer is obvious, but for unnamed bonuses? Objects, even the same type of object, are difference sources.

Also, no official source says otherwise. It's not touched in the FAQ, not touched in the Rules of the Game articles. It's completely up to a DM to determine the meaning is his or her game.
Merestil Haye
02-18-08, 04:02 PM Herein lies the catch. What makes them the same source? For spells the answer is obvious, but for unnamed bonuses? Objects, even the same type of object, are difference sources.The name of the source.

Weapon Mastery is Weapon Mastery, whether the type of weapon mastered be Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing, to cite but one example. They are the same source because they have the same name.

Two class features are the same source if they have the same name.

We know from the FAQ that the designers distinguish between superficially similar things by giving them different names; hence incorporeal touch AC is not the same as Touch AC (even though they appear the same and have similar names). Consequently if two things have the same name they are very probably the same source.

As for magic items, I've always ruled that two items are "the same source" if their prerequisites are 100% identical (even to the item creation feat).
groveborn
02-18-08, 04:07 PM Then here you go:

Subject
Orange Ious Stones

Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 02/18/2008 12:24 PM
Benjamin,

The +1 Caster Level bonus from and Orange Ioun Stone is an untyped bonus and thus it will stack with itself.

Good Gaming!

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Customer (Benjamin Waterman) 02/18/2008 12:08 PM
Asked many times on the forums and always leads to an argument. Do the Orange Ioun Stones stack with one another? It's clearly an unnamed bonus, but do the sources count as the same, even though they are different physical objects?

I'd be happy to post your reply in the forums...

********************
Page Number: 260
Book Name: Dungeon Master's Guide

This is the complete response I received from Customer Service. Items, even items with the same name should not be considered the same source. This is usually not a problem since most items require a specific slot. For the Ioun Stones, treat each as separate objects and sources.

For those of you who say that Customer Service isn't good enough, consider that it is better than Joe Shmoe on the forums. If you feel it's too powerful for your games, then rule the other way. It's really not that powerful, even when you get 1,000 of them. At some point it just makes the spells last longer, not deal more damage, nor increase DC. Typically, even at level 1, with 30 of them, you'll not really see that drastic a difference. The spell level themselves prevent real abuse.
BruceLeeroy
02-18-08, 08:07 PM And at 30k a pop, they're effectively limited. Even at near epic, you won't find many people with more than 2 or 3. It's just too narrow a buff to sink that much cash into, unless you have a specific trick in mind.

Works great for DMM: persist, though. Makes your buffs that much more difficult to dispel.
Jimmynids
02-18-08, 10:59 PM [QUOTE=BruceLeeroy;15125680]
And at 30k a pop, they're effectively limited. Even at near epic, you won't find many people with more than 2 or 3. It's just too narrow a buff to sink that much cash into, unless you have a specific trick in mind.

And I do have a specific trick in mind, but that comes later.

For now I just need +6 more caster levels without the orange prism ioun stone(+5 more if i roll lucky with divine spell power, or +4 more if i roll REALLY luck with DSP)

At the very least I would like to come up with 2 more caster levels minimum. 6 is better but i will settle for 2
groveborn
02-18-08, 11:56 PM While there is no guidelines on creating a higher bonus in the stones (or better yet, an item with a slot affinity...), since they stack, why not treat each bonus as Bonus*1.5*30k? I'd suggest the increase at 1.5 rather than bonus^2 just because it doesn't follow the pricing for that item.

Rather than 6 stones, make 1 item with +6 caster levels. For an Ioun Stone, I'd price that at 270,000. Half that for a slotted item.
Damned slayer
02-19-08, 12:44 PM Then here you go:

This is the complete response I received from Customer Service. Items, even items with the same name should not be considered the same source. This is usually not a problem since most items require a specific slot. For the Ioun Stones, treat each as separate objects and sources.

For those of you who say that Customer Service isn't good enough, consider that it is better than Joe Shmoe on the forums. If you feel it's too powerful for your games, then rule the other way. It's really not that powerful, even when you get 1,000 of them. At some point it just makes the spells last longer, not deal more damage, nor increase DC. Typically, even at level 1, with 30 of them, you'll not really see that drastic a difference. The spell level themselves prevent real abuse.

ever head of holy word??
It's a complete break out if you can stack those and use this spell go in hell and just blast your way with holy word CL 20+ than your HD should threaten even the demon/devil lords and since CL goes up so are your chances of getting throught SR
groveborn
02-19-08, 07:29 PM And at +20 CL, the only cost is an amazingly small chump change of 600,000 gp. Oh, and 600 days of continual crafting in order to get it. By the time the individual has saved enough money, they should be epic.
Jimmynids
02-20-08, 07:58 PM Actually for now I was thinkin more along the lines of Dictum... Instantly KILL all non-lawful(NG/N/NE/CG/CN/CE) within 20 feet of you if they are 10 levels or more below your caster level, paralyze if they are 5 or below from your CL. So if i got a scroll scribed by an 18th and im 8th, if i get +10 caster levels i only fail the casting on a 1. I need +6 caster levels for this.

If i wait until im 13, then the method using prayer beads means i only need +2 more caster levels to be casting at my level +10. So automatically i would kill any creatures my level or lower from that point on if i find 2 more caster levels, or at the very least i kill all non lawful things my level -2 as is.

And once i do get CL +10, anything my level dies, anything up to my level +5becomes paralyzed, anything up to my level +7 is slowed, and anything up to my level +10 gets deafened... Sorry mr. dragon, no more listen checks to find our sneaking fighter in FULL PLATE......

Anyways i cant cast Dictum for another 5 levels so i wanna use the scroll and i wanna have a near 0 chance of failure, atm i think i only need on average a 7 or better on a d20 to cast it, just trying to close that gap even more ^_^.
groveborn
02-20-08, 11:01 PM It's fairly inexpensive to have crafted an item that grants +30 to Use Magic Device. 90k, vs 3 orange Ioun stones of the same cost.
Jimmynids
02-20-08, 11:15 PM Ok, i dont want the 3 ioun stones, iono if DM will allow them to stack, good idea for the scroll use except i want to be able to do this now as opposed to when i get the cash for a +30 umd item. Also, once i hit 13 i can cast Dictum without scrolls so the + to caster level affects both my spells and scroll use, as opposed to umd which would only work on the scrolls.

Thanks though, i didnt even think of crafting a UMD item, gonna have to figure out if i can use that to weasel my way out of the caster level check on scrolls.
Mediator
02-22-08, 08:36 AM Use Alter Fortune, this allows you a second try (might be more affordable than expensive items), have your wizard/druid buddy also preparing the spell just in case.
Jimmynids
02-22-08, 06:14 PM What book contains the spell Alter Fortune?
Roelandt
02-22-08, 09:28 PM Who says wizards and sorcerers are the only ones to wear Robes of the Arch Magi?

Not only are they great for clerics but they make fantastic ultra light armor for rogues and the like!
Jimmynids
02-23-08, 06:52 PM Who says wizards and sorcerers are the only ones to wear Robes of the Arch Magi?

Not only are they great for clerics but they make fantastic ultra light armor for rogues and the like!

Yeah, except that the Robe of the Archmagi specifically states you only gain those benefits it grants if your an Arcane Spellcaster

So it would be an overpriced robe who changes colors according to your alignment unless you take a 1 level dip into wizard or sorc which is completely useless... nice try though.
groveborn
02-24-08, 12:32 AM There is no reason why one couldn't have crafted a robe of +x ac. It's permissible, and is just a reconfigured Bracers of Armor. The cost should be the same, and should be allowed to go to +8 AC, and +13 total enhancements, just as the bracers.
risner
03-12-08, 03:57 PM Then here you go:

This is the complete response I received from Customer Service.

I just stumbled upon this thread, or I would have responded in Feb.

In any event, multiple Orange (+1 CL) Ioun Stones will not stack officially in 3.5 rules.

Multiple from the same source never stack, period.

You got a response from Custsevr, but that really doesn't mean anything. You can always engineer the response you want by asking the question in a correct way for the response.

In other words, if you ask "I can't do X" then you are told you can't. If you ask "I can do Y", then you are told you can.

The rules are crystal clear, and rule 0 is clear. If the DM wishes to override the "they don't stack" explicit rule with "Orange stones stack in my world" he can do so. It is his world.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jimmynids 02-18-08, 12:50 AM	Ok guys, I am looking for spells or feats which add +1 to your caster level for at least your next Law spell. To clarify, any +1 to your caster level that functions similar to the Law domain ability and stacks with it(any feats to increase your effective caster level for divine or law; any feats for sacking turn attempts to increase CL or any spell/spells that give a sacred/any bonus to caster level of next divine or law spell). I am simply trying to increase my caster level to offset the Caster Level check of a scroll of a Lawful divine spell made by a caster 10 levels higher than me(normally an 11 or better would need to be rolled for this). Law Domain gives me a +1 to my caster level when I cast lawful spells. I found one on my own - Divine Spell Power from CDiv. pg 80 - but I'm not sure if that would work on a scroll. It sounds good but I don't know. Anyways if you know of anything else that would help me out please post it here. As it stands, I need to roll a 10 to cast a spell off of a scroll scribed by a caster with 10 levels more than myself, or less if divine spell power works for this. If it does, with my turn checks i can easily get to an additional +2 or +3 CL thus i would respectively need to roll an 8 or 7 to cast the scroll. Anyhow thanks for your help and support!
groveborn 02-18-08, 01:36 AM	The (I think orange) Ioun Stone provides +1 caster level. It's pretty cheap. Also, there appears to be no solid (I stress solid) rule against those stacking to make a near unlimited number of caster level boosts. I don't want that to turn to an argument, so I'll also chase the other side of the coin. The argument against would be same source doesn't stack. DM's discretion. I'd say it does, but shouldn't. It's an unnamed bonus to caster levels, each from a unique source (even if they have the same name). You could ideally just make 100 different types of these things, each with a unique shape and name, and they still do the same thing. Rock of +1 to caster level, necklace of +1 to caster level... so on. It's abusable.
Nathreet 02-18-08, 01:51 AM	Effects from the same/similar source never stack. A 2nd duplicate item or spell is not a unique source. That's just a player trying to bend the rules. B/c if that's not the same source then there's never a same source. Custom magic items always require the DM's approval/adjustment, even if they follow the magic item creation guidelines. A cleric with the law domain always gets +1 to his caster level when casting law spells. That ioun stone is another good way to add a caster level, and I'm sure there are some non-core books have their own items/spells.
Decinious 02-18-08, 12:20 PM	Bead of karma from the strand of prayer beads is +4 for 10 mins...
groveborn 02-18-08, 02:13 PM	Effects from the same/similar source never stack. A 2nd duplicate item or spell is not a unique source. That's just a player trying to bend the rules. B/c if that's not the same source then there's never a same source. Custom magic items always require the DM's approval/adjustment, even if they follow the magic item creation guidelines. A cleric with the law domain always gets +1 to his caster level when casting law spells. That ioun stone is another good way to add a caster level, and I'm sure there are some non-core books have their own items/spells. Herein lies the catch. What makes them the same source? For spells the answer is obvious, but for unnamed bonuses? Objects, even the same type of object, are difference sources. Also, no official source says otherwise. It's not touched in the FAQ, not touched in the Rules of the Game articles. It's completely up to a DM to determine the meaning is his or her game.
Merestil Haye 02-18-08, 04:02 PM	Herein lies the catch. What makes them the same source? For spells the answer is obvious, but for unnamed bonuses? Objects, even the same type of object, are difference sources.The name of the source. Weapon Mastery is Weapon Mastery, whether the type of weapon mastered be Bludgeoning, Slashing or Piercing, to cite but one example. They are the same source because they have the same name. Two class features are the same source if they have the same name. We know from the FAQ that the designers distinguish between superficially similar things by giving them different names; hence incorporeal touch AC is not the same as Touch AC (even though they appear the same and have similar names). Consequently if two things have the same name they are very probably the same source. As for magic items, I've always ruled that two items are "the same source" if their prerequisites are 100% identical (even to the item creation feat).
groveborn 02-18-08, 04:07 PM	Then here you go: Subject Orange Ious Stones Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/18/2008 12:24 PM Benjamin, The +1 Caster Level bonus from and Orange Ioun Stone is an untyped bonus and thus it will stack with itself. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. <a href="http://www.wizards.com/survey/custservemail0105.htm"> Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire</a>. To login to your account, or update your question please <a href="http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/acct_login.php?p_userid=groveborn@hotmai l.com&p_next_page=myq_ilp.php">click here</a>. Joe Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Benjamin Waterman) 02/18/2008 12:08 PM Asked many times on the forums and always leads to an argument. Do the Orange Ioun Stones stack with one another? It's clearly an unnamed bonus, but do the sources count as the same, even though they are different physical objects? I'd be happy to post your reply in the forums... ******************** Page Number: 260 Book Name: Dungeon Master's Guide This is the complete response I received from Customer Service. Items, even items with the same name should not be considered the same source. This is usually not a problem since most items require a specific slot. For the Ioun Stones, treat each as separate objects and sources. For those of you who say that Customer Service isn't good enough, consider that it is better than Joe Shmoe on the forums. If you feel it's too powerful for your games, then rule the other way. It's really not that powerful, even when you get 1,000 of them. At some point it just makes the spells last longer, not deal more damage, nor increase DC. Typically, even at level 1, with 30 of them, you'll not really see that drastic a difference. The spell level themselves prevent real abuse.
BruceLeeroy 02-18-08, 08:07 PM	And at 30k a pop, they're effectively limited. Even at near epic, you won't find many people with more than 2 or 3. It's just too narrow a buff to sink that much cash into, unless you have a specific trick in mind. Works great for DMM: persist, though. Makes your buffs that much more difficult to dispel.
Jimmynids 02-18-08, 10:59 PM	[QUOTE=BruceLeeroy;15125680] And at 30k a pop, they're effectively limited. Even at near epic, you won't find many people with more than 2 or 3. It's just too narrow a buff to sink that much cash into, unless you have a specific trick in mind. And I do have a specific trick in mind, but that comes later. For now I just need +6 more caster levels without the orange prism ioun stone(+5 more if i roll lucky with divine spell power, or +4 more if i roll REALLY luck with DSP) At the very least I would like to come up with 2 more caster levels minimum. 6 is better but i will settle for 2
groveborn 02-18-08, 11:56 PM	While there is no guidelines on creating a higher bonus in the stones (or better yet, an item with a slot affinity...), since they stack, why not treat each bonus as Bonus1.530k? I'd suggest the increase at 1.5 rather than bonus^2 just because it doesn't follow the pricing for that item. Rather than 6 stones, make 1 item with +6 caster levels. For an Ioun Stone, I'd price that at 270,000. Half that for a slotted item.
Damned slayer 02-19-08, 12:44 PM	Then here you go: This is the complete response I received from Customer Service. Items, even items with the same name should not be considered the same source. This is usually not a problem since most items require a specific slot. For the Ioun Stones, treat each as separate objects and sources. For those of you who say that Customer Service isn't good enough, consider that it is better than Joe Shmoe on the forums. If you feel it's too powerful for your games, then rule the other way. It's really not that powerful, even when you get 1,000 of them. At some point it just makes the spells last longer, not deal more damage, nor increase DC. Typically, even at level 1, with 30 of them, you'll not really see that drastic a difference. The spell level themselves prevent real abuse. ever head of holy word?? It's a complete break out if you can stack those and use this spell go in hell and just blast your way with holy word CL 20+ than your HD should threaten even the demon/devil lords and since CL goes up so are your chances of getting throught SR
groveborn 02-19-08, 07:29 PM	And at +20 CL, the only cost is an amazingly small chump change of 600,000 gp. Oh, and 600 days of continual crafting in order to get it. By the time the individual has saved enough money, they should be epic.
Jimmynids 02-20-08, 07:58 PM	Actually for now I was thinkin more along the lines of Dictum... Instantly KILL all non-lawful(NG/N/NE/CG/CN/CE) within 20 feet of you if they are 10 levels or more below your caster level, paralyze if they are 5 or below from your CL. So if i got a scroll scribed by an 18th and im 8th, if i get +10 caster levels i only fail the casting on a 1. I need +6 caster levels for this. If i wait until im 13, then the method using prayer beads means i only need +2 more caster levels to be casting at my level +10. So automatically i would kill any creatures my level or lower from that point on if i find 2 more caster levels, or at the very least i kill all non lawful things my level -2 as is. And once i do get CL +10, anything my level dies, anything up to my level +5becomes paralyzed, anything up to my level +7 is slowed, and anything up to my level +10 gets deafened... Sorry mr. dragon, no more listen checks to find our sneaking fighter in FULL PLATE...... Anyways i cant cast Dictum for another 5 levels so i wanna use the scroll and i wanna have a near 0 chance of failure, atm i think i only need on average a 7 or better on a d20 to cast it, just trying to close that gap even more ^_^.
groveborn 02-20-08, 11:01 PM	It's fairly inexpensive to have crafted an item that grants +30 to Use Magic Device. 90k, vs 3 orange Ioun stones of the same cost.
Jimmynids 02-20-08, 11:15 PM	Ok, i dont want the 3 ioun stones, iono if DM will allow them to stack, good idea for the scroll use except i want to be able to do this now as opposed to when i get the cash for a +30 umd item. Also, once i hit 13 i can cast Dictum without scrolls so the + to caster level affects both my spells and scroll use, as opposed to umd which would only work on the scrolls. Thanks though, i didnt even think of crafting a UMD item, gonna have to figure out if i can use that to weasel my way out of the caster level check on scrolls.
Mediator 02-22-08, 08:36 AM	Use Alter Fortune, this allows you a second try (might be more affordable than expensive items), have your wizard/druid buddy also preparing the spell just in case.
Jimmynids 02-22-08, 06:14 PM	What book contains the spell Alter Fortune?
Roelandt 02-22-08, 09:28 PM	Who says wizards and sorcerers are the only ones to wear Robes of the Arch Magi? Not only are they great for clerics but they make fantastic ultra light armor for rogues and the like!
Jimmynids 02-23-08, 06:52 PM	Who says wizards and sorcerers are the only ones to wear Robes of the Arch Magi? Not only are they great for clerics but they make fantastic ultra light armor for rogues and the like! Yeah, except that the Robe of the Archmagi specifically states you only gain those benefits it grants if your an Arcane Spellcaster So it would be an overpriced robe who changes colors according to your alignment unless you take a 1 level dip into wizard or sorc which is completely useless... nice try though.
groveborn 02-24-08, 12:32 AM	There is no reason why one couldn't have crafted a robe of +x ac. It's permissible, and is just a reconfigured Bracers of Armor. The cost should be the same, and should be allowed to go to +8 AC, and +13 total enhancements, just as the bracers.
risner 03-12-08, 03:57 PM	Then here you go: This is the complete response I received from Customer Service. I just stumbled upon this thread, or I would have responded in Feb. In any event, multiple Orange (+1 CL) Ioun Stones will not stack officially in 3.5 rules. Multiple from the same source never stack, period. You got a response from Custsevr, but that really doesn't mean anything. You can always engineer the response you want by asking the question in a correct way for the response. In other words, if you ask "I can't do X" then you are told you can't. If you ask "I can do Y", then you are told you can. The rules are crystal clear, and rule 0 is clear. If the DM wishes to override the "they don't stack" explicit rule with "Orange stones stack in my world" he can do so. It is his world.