Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 02-21-04, 05:06 PM	In my on going attempts to not only balance the D&D system, but to alter it to my tastes and the needs of my world, I have turned my sights to the Cleric. On another thread, I'm trying to work out a system where clerics will get a spirital familiar/companion, since my world is an animistic setting. Sun and Death domains have the turn/rebuke undead benefits, so that's why it's there if you question it. Air/Earth/Fire/Water Domain: As is. Animal Domain: Is this domain considered underpowered? If you think it is, what kind of benefit would you give it? I'm considering making it Rebuke/Command Animals. Chaos/Evil/Good/Law Domain: As is, though they may need some other bonus eventually. Death Domain: Rebuke/Destroy undead ability, as cleric ability of the same name. Destruction Domain: Destruction Touch, as current death domain ability except the HP pool is equal to Cha x cleric level, and unused Hp are saved for later uses (like lay hands). Healing Domain: Lay Hands, as current Paladin ability. Knowledge Domain: I've been considering just giving Knowledge clerics the Lore ability, like Bard's Bardic Knowledge. What do you think? Luck Domain: Should this domain have extra uses? Maybe 1/day/5 levels? Magic Domain: As is. Plant Domain: As is. Protection Domain: Is this domain a little weak? Strength Domain: Should this domain be usable more often? Sun Domain: Turn/Destroy undead, as current cleric ability. Travel: As is. Trickery: Does this domain need something more? As it stands, it seems that the cleric doesn't gain much of a benefit from this, what with their low skill points and all. War: As is, though I'd consider having it grant specialization at 6, greater focus at 12, and greater specialization at 18. After all, as it stands now it's only a single feat value, maybe 2, where some other domains are worth a bit more than a single feat. I know I'm giving a large number of these domains a power up. But remember, most clerics will loose their turn undead. I'm also testing out a spontanious domain access ability, where instead of clerics spontaniously converting cure/inflict spells, they will spontaniously convert their domain spells. They will also loose the bonus +1 domain spell per day. I've been told that this will reduce the cleric's power in a party slightly, because most clerics will be forced to prepare a number of cure spells for the party. It also greatly increases the cleric's flavor, since they now have a greater command over the domains they focused in. Some specific spells may become problematic, some of the arcane spells, so I'd like to focus on them eventually.
Seeker95 02-21-04, 07:13 PM	General observation: It appears you have properly balanced the "power-ups" with the default powers being decreased. The substitution of a domain spell for a cure spell in spontaneous casting is fair, and the substitution of a "familiar" for undead turning is also fair. Your Sun domain focus still allows turning, allowing the undead-hunter-cleric to exist. The domain focus for Healing still permits the creation of the combat medic. I like what you have done so far!
Xeviat-DM 02-22-04, 05:00 AM	Seeker, do you have any opinions on the "weaker" domains I pointed out? I beefed up a few of the domains that I thought were weak, but I'm not sure what to do about some of the others.
beaver1024 02-22-04, 06:49 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM Seeker, do you have any opinions on the "weaker" domains I pointed out? I beefed up a few of the domains that I thought were weak, but I'm not sure what to do about some of the others. With your animal and plant domains. Do you still have druids in your campaign? If so, is it really necessary for clerics to have these areas? I always felt that they stepped too much on druid toes with these domains. I think the trickery domain was balanced on the basis that the domain spell list contained so many arcane spells that the domain power itself shouldn't be more than minor benefits or else this domain would be overpowered. I think removing turn undead and +1 domain spells may still not be enough of a balancing factor for some of the domains as they contain heaps of really good arcane spells. Replacing spontenous cure with spontaneous domain is actually a power up for the cleric. This is because spontaneous cure is a more limited set of spells than domains. A cleric can have 2 domains which gives the cleric the ability to spontaneously cast 18 spells vs the 8 or so for cures. Also consider that you are alowing the cleric to cast spells like a sorcerer because domain spells have plenty of arcane spells in them. For example if a cleric has an Air and Healing domain the cleric can cast Chain Lightning better than arcane spellcasters can whilst still retaining the ability to spontaneously cure. If they have the healing and sun domain, they can spontanously cast things like Flame Strike and Fire Seeds whilst retaining the ability to turn undead and spontanously cure. The only drawback they have is -1 spell per level. If I was a powergamer in your campaign this tradeoff wouldn't be worth even thinking about. The benefits are too great. That is unless of course you have other mechanical drawbacks to being a cleric you haven't mentioned yet. Perhaps you could bring the cleric's hd down a notch to d6 and remove heavy and medium armour profiency. That might be ok. EDIT: You might want to think about synergies with PrCs like the Contemplative and Divine Disciples which gives additional domains. Could be unbalancing.
Xeviat-DM 02-22-04, 07:21 AM	I'm not even taking PrCs into account just yet, the only caster PrCs I've allowed in my campaign thus far are multiclass/hybrid class PrCs. I'm currently considering knocking the cleric down to d6, and giving them 4 skill points per level. Oh, and what god grants Air and Healing? I know you were just making an example. Take a quick look at Spontanious Divine Spellcasters from Unearthed Arcana. I will be keeping a close eye on the arcane origin domain spells, that is one question I had in my first post: Which of these spells are most problematic? Thanks. PS: I do have druids in my campaign world, they are flavored as the ancient spellcasters that wizardry developed from; rituals of religion became rituals of science. Druids in my setting get their spells from the elemental energy around them by being intune with it. They are divine spell casters because they are drawing their power from a spiritual source, the living earth. Clerics with Animal or Plant domains have a connection to an animal or a plant spirit. Such spirits exist, but druids are more concerned with the physical manifestations of nature, not the spiritual ones.
beaver1024 02-22-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM I'm not even taking PrCs into account just yet, the only caster PrCs I've allowed in my campaign thus far are multiclass/hybrid class PrCs. I'm currently considering knocking the cleric down to d6, and giving them 4 skill points per level. Oh, and what god grants Air and Healing? I know you were just making an example. Take a quick look at Spontanious Divine Spellcasters from Unearthed Arcana. I will be keeping a close eye on the arcane origin domain spells, that is one question I had in my first post: Which of these spells are most problematic? Thanks. PS: I do have druids in my campaign world, they are flavored as the ancient spellcasters that wizardry developed from; rituals of religion became rituals of science. Druids in my setting get their spells from the elemental energy around them by being intune with it. They are divine spell casters because they are drawing their power from a spiritual source, the living earth. Clerics with Animal or Plant domains have a connection to an animal or a plant spirit. Such spirits exist, but druids are more concerned with the physical manifestations of nature, not the spiritual ones. With the animal domain, did you know that it gives the animal companion ability of druids (in classic 3.5). How does this sit with the familiar feature of your new cleric? Perhaps you can improve this by giving the cleric an improve familiar bonus feat at lvl 3 with this domain or something. Air and Healing is only a valid combo if you allow deityless clerics. However Sun and Healing are a valid combo still (Pelor). Problematic arcane spells accessible to cleric you might want to watch out for might be Invisibility, Fly (clerics already have Air Walk but to spontaneously cast this might be too good), Dimension Door and Teleport, Stone Skin, Polymorph Any Other Object, Time Stop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Also any of the direct damage spells. Allowing clerics to spontaneously cast Chain Lightning or Horrid Wilting might be a bit too much. Maybe it may not be too bad if you adjust upwards the level on those spells (ie make those spells obey DMG divine damage die caps). However if you campaign world doesn't have wizard or sorcerers then this might not be too bad to retain their old levels.
Seeker95 02-22-04, 08:32 AM	The "weaker" domains aren't a problem for me, but I'm used to campaigns and players who don't need to make their characters the most powerful combination of everything. The weaker domains fit with concepts that a player might want. For example, with the animal domain, consider the Dr. Doolittle approach. With this domain, the cleric can speak with animals 3 times per day. The duration of each use is one minute per caster level. Powerful? No. Fun? You bet!
Xeviat-DM 02-22-04, 09:40 AM	Originally posted by beaver1024 With the animal domain, did you know that it gives the animal companion ability of druids (in classic 3.5). How does this sit with the familiar feature of your new cleric? Perhaps you can improve this by giving the cleric an improve familiar bonus feat at lvl 3 with this domain or something. Hu? Animal Domain currently offers speak with animals, not animal companion. I'm suggesting that it be rebuke/command animals, rather than speak with animals, just to go along with the other domains that offer energy channeling.
beaver1024 02-22-04, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM Hu? Animal Domain currently offers speak with animals, not animal companion. I'm suggesting that it be rebuke/command animals, rather than speak with animals, just to go along with the other domains that offer energy channeling. Oops. My bad. In 3.0 they had the animal companion ability.
Thelon Fairblade 02-23-04, 10:12 AM	Xeviat, I was thinking the exact same idea just last night! (making Turn/Rebuke Undead a domain power of a couple domains, and taking it away from everyone else) However, I wasn't going to boost any other domain's power in compensation.... Just Sun and Healing would get Turn Undead, and Death and Undeath would get Rebuke Undead. Everything else would remain the same...
Xeviat-DM 02-24-04, 03:46 AM	Well, my reasoning for boosting/changing a few of the domains is simply for my campaign focus. I use the Paladin as a PrC variant from Unearthed Arcana. As it stands, a Paladin progresses turn undead and lay hands, and in my setting the Paladin PrC would progress the Sun Domain and the Healing Domain. Also, with progressive benefit domains, I have a hard time seeing how non-progressing domains can be considered balanced. A domain like War grants the benefit of 1 feat (maybe 2 in some cases). Other domains which grant +1 caster level end up feeling a little weak, like the healing domain and the alignment domains and knowledge.