Cleric domain spells in normal spell slots? Opinions, please! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric domain spells in normal spell slots? Opinions, please! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talisman
11-04-07, 10:31 PM I'm in the process of revamping the cleric class, and a thought occured to me...would it be unbalanced to drop the whole "+1 domain spell" thing, and instead allow the cleric to prepare domain spells in their normal spell slots?

At first glance, I don't see a problem. Some (but by no means all) of the domain spells are higher-power than most of the cleric spells, but in my experience, characters rarely prepare more than two or so of the same spell anyway. Also, the reduced number of spells should cut down on the cheese factor.

One complication would be situations where a cleric gets a spell at one level as a domain spell, and another as a cleric spell (e.g.: fire storm, Fire 7, Cleric 8). (BTW, this confused th heck out of one friend, and I totally agree with him that it's not very logical).

Thoughts?
vorpo
11-04-07, 11:01 PM Prepare firestorm using a 7th lvl domain spell slot or using a 8th level normal spell slot. So, if your cleric can cast 8th level spells, he can prepare firestorm in one of his +1 domain slot for 7th level spell AND prepare firestorm in his normal 8th level spell slots.
Talisman
11-04-07, 11:22 PM I understand that; I'm just saying it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a deity would grant his priest the power to use a spell at 7th level...but only once per day...and at 8th level several times per day.

And I'm talking about abolishing the whole "extra spells from domains" thing altogether. Not extra spells known; extra spells per day.
risner
11-04-07, 11:37 PM It is mostly a problem for spells not available to clerics normally. Many of those domains spells are limited to 1/day by virtue of being a domain spell (Spell Turning for instance) and allowing more than one is dangerous in the hands of a good optimizer.
Dheran
11-04-07, 11:44 PM One complication would be situations where a cleric gets a spell at one level as a domain spell, and another as a cleric spell (e.g.: fire storm, Fire 7, Cleric 8). (BTW, this confused th heck out of one friend, and I totally agree with him that it's not very logical).

Thoughts? It seems pretty logical to me. A domain (in this case Fire) represents a specialty that the Cleric is good at, usually because the Cleric's connection to their deity allows them access to that divine magic. A deity with Fire in their portfolio will have Clerics who will be able to tap into [Fire] spells earlier than other Clerics who have no such connection.
Talisman
11-05-07, 01:10 AM It is mostly a problem for spells not available to clerics normally. Many of those domains spells are limited to 1/day by virtue of being a domain spell (Spell Turning for instance) and allowing more than one is dangerous in the hands of a good optimizer.

That's what I was concerned about. Do you think the reduction in available spell slots balances out the increase in available spells?

It seems pretty logical to me. A domain (in this case Fire) represents a specialty that the Cleric is good at, usually because the Cleric's connection to their deity allows them access to that divine magic. A deity with Fire in their portfolio will have Clerics who will be able to tap into [Fire] spells earlier than other Clerics who have no such connection.

The illogical part for me is that our example cleric can take fire storm as a 7th-level spell...once per day. He can take it as an 8th-level spell as often as his super-mega Wisdom allows (i.e., number of spell slots). It would seem more logical for the cleric to simply gain access to fire storm as a 7th-level spell across the board.
kuonji
11-05-07, 03:22 AM Perhaps think of it like this. Fire Storm is a dangerous spell, thus it's high level. The Fire domain allows it to be cast once a day as a 7th level spell because a cleric with that domain has some extra affinity for fire, but playing with fire, even for one so attuned, can prove dangerous, thus the limited ability to tap into the extra power from the domain.

Anyway, I wouldn't allow it simply because, as was said above, some optimizers could do some heafty damage with this option. Also, clerics don't really need any help.
BW0222
11-05-07, 10:34 AM Talisman,

Thoughts?

I'd have two worries.

First, that the cleric would now easily take over the role of the wizard as the offensive caster. It is one thing to have a domain which allows you to cast say a lightning bolt once/day, but when you have three of them memorized, you now have the ability to take over the arcane caster's offensive role without much difficulty. Since, you can spontaneously cast cure spells in their place, there isn't much reason not to memorize a ton of such spells, since they can become healing if needed.

Second, I think it would create issues with domain selection. Many domain spells (divinations, creation, magic, etc.) have spells which you typically wouldn't want to take multiple times per day. However, some of the offensive minded ones (fire, destruction, etc.) have spells which many casters would take multiple times per day. Those domains would become far more desireable, leading to less variety. Finally, domains which grant pre-existing cleric spells (healing, protection, good, etc.) are pretty useless - at least now they allow you to free up slots since you are highly likely to cast them.
DracoPhoenix
11-05-07, 10:53 AM Comp Divine - domain spontaneity feat allows you to pop a spell of the same level or higher + 1 turning attempt to cast a specified domain's spells spontaneously.
risner
11-05-07, 02:27 PM Comp Divine - domain spontaneity feat allows you to pop a spell of the same level or higher + 1 turning attempt to cast a specified domain's spells spontaneously.

Not to mention the Complete Champion "Spontaneous Domains" which (if this rule was implemented) would allow a cleric to leave all spell slots open in the morning and spontaneously cast all his spells as domain spells.
weasel05
11-05-07, 08:12 PM Our DM has it that you dont need to prepare domain spells instead you can spontaniously convert any spell the same as the cure spells. this is great because i now have three domains + the cures that i can convert and it two levels (i am currently 10th) i will get a forth domain making me have the spontinuity of a sorcerer and the spell list of a cleric. So when i prepare spells i just prepare random stuff that i wont use often like remove curse and if we get into a battle i just burn it off for an attacking spell (i am doing more attackin than the wizard now :D )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talisman 11-04-07, 10:31 PM	I'm in the process of revamping the cleric class, and a thought occured to me...would it be unbalanced to drop the whole "+1 domain spell" thing, and instead allow the cleric to prepare domain spells in their normal spell slots? At first glance, I don't see a problem. Some (but by no means all) of the domain spells are higher-power than most of the cleric spells, but in my experience, characters rarely prepare more than two or so of the same spell anyway. Also, the reduced number of spells should cut down on the cheese factor. One complication would be situations where a cleric gets a spell at one level as a domain spell, and another as a cleric spell (e.g.: fire storm, Fire 7, Cleric 8). (BTW, this confused th heck out of one friend, and I totally agree with him that it's not very logical). Thoughts?
vorpo 11-04-07, 11:01 PM	Prepare firestorm using a 7th lvl domain spell slot or using a 8th level normal spell slot. So, if your cleric can cast 8th level spells, he can prepare firestorm in one of his +1 domain slot for 7th level spell AND prepare firestorm in his normal 8th level spell slots.
Talisman 11-04-07, 11:22 PM	I understand that; I'm just saying it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a deity would grant his priest the power to use a spell at 7th level...but only once per day...and at 8th level several times per day. And I'm talking about abolishing the whole "extra spells from domains" thing altogether. Not extra spells known; extra spells per day.
risner 11-04-07, 11:37 PM	It is mostly a problem for spells not available to clerics normally. Many of those domains spells are limited to 1/day by virtue of being a domain spell (Spell Turning for instance) and allowing more than one is dangerous in the hands of a good optimizer.
Dheran 11-04-07, 11:44 PM	One complication would be situations where a cleric gets a spell at one level as a domain spell, and another as a cleric spell (e.g.: fire storm, Fire 7, Cleric 8). (BTW, this confused th heck out of one friend, and I totally agree with him that it's not very logical). Thoughts? It seems pretty logical to me. A domain (in this case Fire) represents a specialty that the Cleric is good at, usually because the Cleric's connection to their deity allows them access to that divine magic. A deity with Fire in their portfolio will have Clerics who will be able to tap into [Fire] spells earlier than other Clerics who have no such connection.
Talisman 11-05-07, 01:10 AM	It is mostly a problem for spells not available to clerics normally. Many of those domains spells are limited to 1/day by virtue of being a domain spell (Spell Turning for instance) and allowing more than one is dangerous in the hands of a good optimizer. That's what I was concerned about. Do you think the reduction in available spell slots balances out the increase in available spells? It seems pretty logical to me. A domain (in this case Fire) represents a specialty that the Cleric is good at, usually because the Cleric's connection to their deity allows them access to that divine magic. A deity with Fire in their portfolio will have Clerics who will be able to tap into [Fire] spells earlier than other Clerics who have no such connection. The illogical part for me is that our example cleric can take fire storm as a 7th-level spell...once per day. He can take it as an 8th-level spell as often as his super-mega Wisdom allows (i.e., number of spell slots). It would seem more logical for the cleric to simply gain access to fire storm as a 7th-level spell across the board.
kuonji 11-05-07, 03:22 AM	Perhaps think of it like this. Fire Storm is a dangerous spell, thus it's high level. The Fire domain allows it to be cast once a day as a 7th level spell because a cleric with that domain has some extra affinity for fire, but playing with fire, even for one so attuned, can prove dangerous, thus the limited ability to tap into the extra power from the domain. Anyway, I wouldn't allow it simply because, as was said above, some optimizers could do some heafty damage with this option. Also, clerics don't really need any help.
BW0222 11-05-07, 10:34 AM	Talisman, Thoughts? I'd have two worries. First, that the cleric would now easily take over the role of the wizard as the offensive caster. It is one thing to have a domain which allows you to cast say a lightning bolt once/day, but when you have three of them memorized, you now have the ability to take over the arcane caster's offensive role without much difficulty. Since, you can spontaneously cast cure spells in their place, there isn't much reason not to memorize a ton of such spells, since they can become healing if needed. Second, I think it would create issues with domain selection. Many domain spells (divinations, creation, magic, etc.) have spells which you typically wouldn't want to take multiple times per day. However, some of the offensive minded ones (fire, destruction, etc.) have spells which many casters would take multiple times per day. Those domains would become far more desireable, leading to less variety. Finally, domains which grant pre-existing cleric spells (healing, protection, good, etc.) are pretty useless - at least now they allow you to free up slots since you are highly likely to cast them.
DracoPhoenix 11-05-07, 10:53 AM	Comp Divine - domain spontaneity feat allows you to pop a spell of the same level or higher + 1 turning attempt to cast a specified domain's spells spontaneously.
risner 11-05-07, 02:27 PM	Comp Divine - domain spontaneity feat allows you to pop a spell of the same level or higher + 1 turning attempt to cast a specified domain's spells spontaneously. Not to mention the Complete Champion "Spontaneous Domains" which (if this rule was implemented) would allow a cleric to leave all spell slots open in the morning and spontaneously cast all his spells as domain spells.
weasel05 11-05-07, 08:12 PM	Our DM has it that you dont need to prepare domain spells instead you can spontaniously convert any spell the same as the cure spells. this is great because i now have three domains + the cures that i can convert and it two levels (i am currently 10th) i will get a forth domain making me have the spontinuity of a sorcerer and the spell list of a cleric. So when i prepare spells i just prepare random stuff that i wont use often like remove curse and if we get into a battle i just burn it off for an attacking spell (i am doing more attackin than the wizard now :D )