Cleric spell that imposes a large penalty to next Will save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric spell that imposes a large penalty to next Will save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ksbsnowowl
12-04-06, 10:46 PM My DM seems to remember a Cleric spell that imposes a rather hefty (up to -20?) penalty to the target's next Will save. I've never heard of such a spell. Anyone have any idea what spell he may be remembering? He can't recall its name.
Tenebrous_Sage
12-04-06, 10:50 PM My DM seems to remember a Cleric spell that imposes a rather hefty (up to -20?) penalty to the target's next Will save. I've never heard of such a spell. Anyone have any idea what spell he may be remembering? He can't recall its name.

:uh-huh:
silvergamgee
12-04-06, 11:06 PM Well, wish or miracle have that ability (automatically fail next saving throw), but it seems like a silly way to do it. A curse can hurt their saving throws some (but not a lot).

A -20 would be a virtual equivalent to that. I haven't heard of it.
scottt
12-05-06, 01:50 AM Bestow curse (will neg) puts -4 penalty to saves etc
Doom (will neg) shakens for -2 penalty to saves etc
Contagion (fort neg) Cackle Fever (DC 16) reduces their wisdom by 1d6.
Miracle - as previously mentioned

Wiz/Sorc Spells:
Touch of Idiocy (no save) reduces Wis, Int and Cha by 1d6.
Crushing Despair (will neg) for -2 penalty to saves etc
Bestow curse (will neg) for -4 penalty to saves etc

If you somehow managed to combine all those (and the poor recipient failed all those WILL saves, which I think was the whole point...)

Are you sure your GM wasn't think of Moment of Prescience?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm
That adds a bonus to one save of up to +25. (Wiz/Sor or Luck domain)
KendallDM
12-05-06, 02:25 AM Mind Fog is pretty nasty in that regards. It imposes a -10 competence penalty to Wisdom checks and Will saves. Don't know about the -20 though.
runestar
12-05-06, 02:52 AM Mind fog is useless - you fail its will save, the enemy might as well use said opportunity to hit you with a dominate person instead.:P

Also, I don't think multiple penalties to saves stack, IIRC, they should overlap.
I think limited wish is a spell domain spell.
Only way I can think of is a use of miracle.
IceFractal
12-05-06, 03:00 AM There's a spell called Soul Bend (3rd party, I think) that gives a -1/2 CL penalty on Will saves, so -10 at 20th. However, like Mind Fog, it has a Will save. So far, the only thing worth using those for seems to be spells with XP costs like Monstrous Thrall (old version).
IceFractal
12-05-06, 03:09 AM Double post. :embarrass
tyrecian
12-05-06, 04:16 AM mind fog isnt useless. It is an AOE debuff for the enemy... so if they don't fail will save, so be it, but they prolly all wont. You can then start adding up the debuffs, like bestow curse (which is touch based) or bane (range) or with a wizzy enervate, touch of idiocy.

all of these debuffs though only mean you better have something to hit em with that is worth a damn, and by the time you finish debuffing em, do you still have any spells left to kill them?
ksbsnowowl
12-05-06, 08:39 AM The only thing I can think of that the DM may be remembering was Curse of Ill Fortune, but that's only a -3, and it is Will Negates.

Our party is running through the Red Hand of Doom, and this next session the Army of Goblins is attacking the large walled city. We are hoping to hit the Large Red Dragon with a Plane Shift spell, and want to drop his Will save as much as possible first.

I suggested Enervation, but sadly, our party does not have access to the spell.

(If Big Red ever gets in range) the cleric will fire off a Prayer (no save -1 penalty to saves), and the Duskblade will hit it with a Touch of Idiocy. Hopefully that drops its Will save enough to make it fail the targeted Plane Shift.

Our party is composed of:

Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 3
Rogue 3/Ranger 3/Dread Commando 3 - me
Duskblade 8
Battle Sorcerer (UA varient) 7 (NPC run by me during combats, but built by the DM)

There is also a 9th level Wizard NPC in the city, and a 7th level Wizard NPC(former party NPC) in the city.

Any additional ideas?
Deathstalker
12-05-06, 03:54 PM There's a 3rd party spell from the Sword and Sorcery book Relics and Rituals called Rend the Sovreign Soul where if a target fails its save, its will save is reduced by the caster's relevant casting modifier for further spells from that caster only for the duration of the spell with multiple castings by the same caster resulting in a cumulative penalty. IIRC, it was used mostly to keep subjugated people subjugated.
Burdell
12-05-06, 04:42 PM Our party is running through the Red Hand of Doom, and this next session the Army of Goblins is attacking the large walled city. We are hoping to hit the Large Red Dragon with a Plane Shift spell, and want to drop his Will save as much as possible first.

Any additional ideas?

Not much to reduce his Will save (dragons are tough that way, all their saves are high :p ) Ranged touch spells work nicely on them, though. . .

Other tactical suggestions include;
Ray of Dizziness (3rd level spell, Spellcasters Compendium, limits foes to move or standard action each round, 1 rd/lvl, no save)
Ray of Clumsiness (also SC, 1st level, like Ray of Enfeeblement but for Dex) combined with Phantasmal Assailants and/or Pyrotechnics (smoke) to remove the last bit of Dex and hope they fail the Fort save on the latter. Dex is a dragons only vaguely low stat to go after.
Make an illusion of you guys out there on the parapets spellcasting in hopes of luring him in for a breath weapon sweep, it at least uses one up temporarily, letting you jump out and engage him.

On the subject of Pyrotechnics, use that to blind loads of foes in the oncoming army, its got a huge range and radius. They'll probably have torches, flaming catapult balls and whatnot to work off of, if necessary throw some in amongst them. Scrolls or (ideally) a Wand work well for this.

And there are a TON of things you can do with various illusions to get the goblins to not attack where you don't want them to and attack where you desire.

Watch out for that draconic Fear, it will be bad for you guys if he flies overhead, sends your troops fleeing, and the goblins just stroll in there. Not a ton of options there for mass protection that I know of, unfortunately, but at least protect yourselves with Protection from Evil and such.
Llathos
12-05-06, 04:53 PM There was a spell back in the Baldur's Gate/IWD series called Malice. I think it was 4th level, had no save, allowed SR, and had close range. It imposed a -4 will save penalty.

Is that a decent guideline for a new spell? <shrug> Maybe?:)
ksbsnowowl
12-05-06, 06:38 PM The spell the DM was thinking of was Mind Fog, even though it is not a cleric spell.

We have a few things planned. We are placing Hallows on the two main city gates, to help protect and bolster troops. A third site will be Hallowed, with an Aid spell tied to it.

(Side note, how does Aid work when tied to Hallow? All the other eligible spells are self-explanatory, but with Aid, does it rebestow temperary hit points each time you enter the Hallowed area? I know how my DM has ruled on the matter; I'm just curious what others would suggest.)

Pyrotechnics will be a good tactic to employ, if the NPC sorcer has it (I'm not sure what 0-level spells he's got) and if the goblinoids are carrying many torches. Since they have darkvision, they may not be carrying many. Maybe we can at least get a few scrolls of it made.

Sadly, the penalty from Ray of Clumsiness would not stack with that from Pyrotechnics, such as to bring a subject's Dex to 0. Even if the penalties themselves stack (which is questionable, as you typically only apply the largest penalty, unless they are named) Ray of Clumsiness, if it is worded the same as ray of enfeeblement, cannot cause your Dex to fall below 1. Even if RoC on its own dropped someone's dex from 10 to 1, and another penalty dropped their dex from 10 to 8, the RoC could still only drop their Dex then from 8 to 1.
scottt
12-05-06, 08:17 PM In my experience spells are pretty ineffective against Dragons because of their spell resistance. There are a few no SR spells, you could use a bunch of wands/scrolls of acid arrow (perhaps with substitute energy cold) combined with a black tentacles to stop the dragon hopping around the field of battle.

I think the Hallow for AOE boost spell is a very good idea.

Short of that, the last time a party I was in took down a dragon most of the damage was done toe-to-toe with weapons.
Lorillomar
12-06-06, 01:23 AM In my experience spells are pretty ineffective against Dragons because of their spell resistance.

Dragons have some of the worst spell resistance in the MM, usually equal to their HD (if they even get any--it depends on their age and type). Take, for example, a Young Adult Red Dragon. SR 19, but a CR of 13. That means that, assuming that you encounter a Young Adult at 13th level, a 13th level caster would only have to roll a 6 in order to beat their SR.

An Ice Devil, on the other hand, while also a CR of 13 has a SR of 25. Your 13th level caster would have to roll a 12 to stick a spell on them.

As for the Mind Fog, I used it against a party one time as a DM to great effect. The bad guys were holed up in a cave and were monitoring the entrance to the cave. When the PCs approached, the bad guys cast Mind Fog at the entrance and sat back and waited. The party did not suspect that the fog was unnatural and waltzed right in. At least half of them failed their will saves and were laid quite low in time for the bad guys to attack.
KendallDM
12-06-06, 02:33 AM Mind fog is useless - you fail its will save, the enemy might as well use said opportunity to hit you with a dominate person instead.:P

On general principal, I agree. That's assuming you know he's gonna fail his Will save, which you don't. In that regard, Mind Fog is not useless, because if you get it to work, that all those other Will save spells are that much more effective.

My players hate this spell because of that. I have used it to great effect. It is not, IMHO, useless. Not every spell with a save works, thats the nature of the game. When this one does, it surpasses all other penalties from spells with one single shot, and lasts a long long time.
runestar
12-06-06, 04:12 AM On general principal, I agree. That's assuming you know he's gonna fail his Will save, which you don't. In that regard, Mind Fog is not useless, because if you get it to work, that all those other Will save spells are that much more effective.
I don't understand...:confused:
You cast mind fog and the target makes his will save, that's a 5th lv slot down the drain for a 3rd lv effect...
If the target failed his save, your next will save spell will have a much easier time affecting him(I say easier since success is still uncertain, and a natural 20 is still an auto-save). But in this case, said spell might as well have been the original spell you wanted to smack him with.

Is there some intricacies to this spell which my thick skull is failing to grasp?:confused:
Shatteredtower
12-06-06, 04:34 AM The biggest drawback to mind fog is that you have no idea who's been affected by it. If you knew it affected an enemy cleric, then you know you've got a much better chance of getting charm person to work than you would have if you'd cast it first. Likewise, if you knew that it affected three of the seven members of an enemy group, you'd know which ones are the best targets for that next Will save spell, even if it's a higher level spell.

Even with that option, however, it's a poor preliminary to any spell that affects an area and allows a Will save -- with the possible exception of disjunction or any other spell that requires multiple Will saves per targetted creature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ksbsnowowl 12-04-06, 10:46 PM	My DM seems to remember a Cleric spell that imposes a rather hefty (up to -20?) penalty to the target's next Will save. I've never heard of such a spell. Anyone have any idea what spell he may be remembering? He can't recall its name.
Tenebrous_Sage 12-04-06, 10:50 PM	My DM seems to remember a Cleric spell that imposes a rather hefty (up to -20?) penalty to the target's next Will save. I've never heard of such a spell. Anyone have any idea what spell he may be remembering? He can't recall its name. :uh-huh:
silvergamgee 12-04-06, 11:06 PM	Well, wish or miracle have that ability (automatically fail next saving throw), but it seems like a silly way to do it. A curse can hurt their saving throws some (but not a lot). A -20 would be a virtual equivalent to that. I haven't heard of it.
scottt 12-05-06, 01:50 AM	Bestow curse (will neg) puts -4 penalty to saves etc Doom (will neg) shakens for -2 penalty to saves etc Contagion (fort neg) Cackle Fever (DC 16) reduces their wisdom by 1d6. Miracle - as previously mentioned Wiz/Sorc Spells: Touch of Idiocy (no save) reduces Wis, Int and Cha by 1d6. Crushing Despair (will neg) for -2 penalty to saves etc Bestow curse (will neg) for -4 penalty to saves etc If you somehow managed to combine all those (and the poor recipient failed all those WILL saves, which I think was the whole point...) Are you sure your GM wasn't think of Moment of Prescience? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/momentOfPrescience.htm That adds a bonus to one save of up to +25. (Wiz/Sor or Luck domain)
KendallDM 12-05-06, 02:25 AM	Mind Fog is pretty nasty in that regards. It imposes a -10 competence penalty to Wisdom checks and Will saves. Don't know about the -20 though.
runestar 12-05-06, 02:52 AM	Mind fog is useless - you fail its will save, the enemy might as well use said opportunity to hit you with a dominate person instead.:P Also, I don't think multiple penalties to saves stack, IIRC, they should overlap. I think limited wish is a spell domain spell. Only way I can think of is a use of miracle.
IceFractal 12-05-06, 03:00 AM	There's a spell called Soul Bend (3rd party, I think) that gives a -1/2 CL penalty on Will saves, so -10 at 20th. However, like Mind Fog, it has a Will save. So far, the only thing worth using those for seems to be spells with XP costs like Monstrous Thrall (old version).
IceFractal 12-05-06, 03:09 AM	Double post. :embarrass
tyrecian 12-05-06, 04:16 AM	mind fog isnt useless. It is an AOE debuff for the enemy... so if they don't fail will save, so be it, but they prolly all wont. You can then start adding up the debuffs, like bestow curse (which is touch based) or bane (range) or with a wizzy enervate, touch of idiocy. all of these debuffs though only mean you better have something to hit em with that is worth a damn, and by the time you finish debuffing em, do you still have any spells left to kill them?
ksbsnowowl 12-05-06, 08:39 AM	The only thing I can think of that the DM may be remembering was Curse of Ill Fortune, but that's only a -3, and it is Will Negates. Our party is running through the Red Hand of Doom, and this next session the Army of Goblins is attacking the large walled city. We are hoping to hit the Large Red Dragon with a Plane Shift spell, and want to drop his Will save as much as possible first. I suggested Enervation, but sadly, our party does not have access to the spell. (If Big Red ever gets in range) the cleric will fire off a Prayer (no save -1 penalty to saves), and the Duskblade will hit it with a Touch of Idiocy. Hopefully that drops its Will save enough to make it fail the targeted Plane Shift. Our party is composed of: Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 3 Rogue 3/Ranger 3/Dread Commando 3 - me Duskblade 8 Battle Sorcerer (UA varient) 7 (NPC run by me during combats, but built by the DM) There is also a 9th level Wizard NPC in the city, and a 7th level Wizard NPC(former party NPC) in the city. Any additional ideas?
Deathstalker 12-05-06, 03:54 PM	There's a 3rd party spell from the Sword and Sorcery book Relics and Rituals called Rend the Sovreign Soul where if a target fails its save, its will save is reduced by the caster's relevant casting modifier for further spells from that caster only for the duration of the spell with multiple castings by the same caster resulting in a cumulative penalty. IIRC, it was used mostly to keep subjugated people subjugated.
Burdell 12-05-06, 04:42 PM	Our party is running through the Red Hand of Doom, and this next session the Army of Goblins is attacking the large walled city. We are hoping to hit the Large Red Dragon with a Plane Shift spell, and want to drop his Will save as much as possible first. Any additional ideas? Not much to reduce his Will save (dragons are tough that way, all their saves are high :p ) Ranged touch spells work nicely on them, though. . . Other tactical suggestions include; Ray of Dizziness (3rd level spell, Spellcasters Compendium, limits foes to move or standard action each round, 1 rd/lvl, no save) Ray of Clumsiness (also SC, 1st level, like Ray of Enfeeblement but for Dex) combined with Phantasmal Assailants and/or Pyrotechnics (smoke) to remove the last bit of Dex and hope they fail the Fort save on the latter. Dex is a dragons only vaguely low stat to go after. Make an illusion of you guys out there on the parapets spellcasting in hopes of luring him in for a breath weapon sweep, it at least uses one up temporarily, letting you jump out and engage him. On the subject of Pyrotechnics, use that to blind loads of foes in the oncoming army, its got a huge range and radius. They'll probably have torches, flaming catapult balls and whatnot to work off of, if necessary throw some in amongst them. Scrolls or (ideally) a Wand work well for this. And there are a TON of things you can do with various illusions to get the goblins to not attack where you don't want them to and attack where you desire. Watch out for that draconic Fear, it will be bad for you guys if he flies overhead, sends your troops fleeing, and the goblins just stroll in there. Not a ton of options there for mass protection that I know of, unfortunately, but at least protect yourselves with Protection from Evil and such.
Llathos 12-05-06, 04:53 PM	There was a spell back in the Baldur's Gate/IWD series called Malice. I think it was 4th level, had no save, allowed SR, and had close range. It imposed a -4 will save penalty. Is that a decent guideline for a new spell? <shrug> Maybe?:)
ksbsnowowl 12-05-06, 06:38 PM	The spell the DM was thinking of was Mind Fog, even though it is not a cleric spell. We have a few things planned. We are placing Hallows on the two main city gates, to help protect and bolster troops. A third site will be Hallowed, with an Aid spell tied to it. (Side note, how does Aid work when tied to Hallow? All the other eligible spells are self-explanatory, but with Aid, does it rebestow temperary hit points each time you enter the Hallowed area? I know how my DM has ruled on the matter; I'm just curious what others would suggest.) Pyrotechnics will be a good tactic to employ, if the NPC sorcer has it (I'm not sure what 0-level spells he's got) and if the goblinoids are carrying many torches. Since they have darkvision, they may not be carrying many. Maybe we can at least get a few scrolls of it made. Sadly, the penalty from Ray of Clumsiness would not stack with that from Pyrotechnics, such as to bring a subject's Dex to 0. Even if the penalties themselves stack (which is questionable, as you typically only apply the largest penalty, unless they are named) Ray of Clumsiness, if it is worded the same as ray of enfeeblement, cannot cause your Dex to fall below 1. Even if RoC on its own dropped someone's dex from 10 to 1, and another penalty dropped their dex from 10 to 8, the RoC could still only drop their Dex then from 8 to 1.
scottt 12-05-06, 08:17 PM	In my experience spells are pretty ineffective against Dragons because of their spell resistance. There are a few no SR spells, you could use a bunch of wands/scrolls of acid arrow (perhaps with substitute energy cold) combined with a black tentacles to stop the dragon hopping around the field of battle. I think the Hallow for AOE boost spell is a very good idea. Short of that, the last time a party I was in took down a dragon most of the damage was done toe-to-toe with weapons.
Lorillomar 12-06-06, 01:23 AM	In my experience spells are pretty ineffective against Dragons because of their spell resistance. Dragons have some of the worst spell resistance in the MM, usually equal to their HD (if they even get any--it depends on their age and type). Take, for example, a Young Adult Red Dragon. SR 19, but a CR of 13. That means that, assuming that you encounter a Young Adult at 13th level, a 13th level caster would only have to roll a 6 in order to beat their SR. An Ice Devil, on the other hand, while also a CR of 13 has a SR of 25. Your 13th level caster would have to roll a 12 to stick a spell on them. As for the Mind Fog, I used it against a party one time as a DM to great effect. The bad guys were holed up in a cave and were monitoring the entrance to the cave. When the PCs approached, the bad guys cast Mind Fog at the entrance and sat back and waited. The party did not suspect that the fog was unnatural and waltzed right in. At least half of them failed their will saves and were laid quite low in time for the bad guys to attack.
KendallDM 12-06-06, 02:33 AM	Mind fog is useless - you fail its will save, the enemy might as well use said opportunity to hit you with a dominate person instead.:P On general principal, I agree. That's assuming you know he's gonna fail his Will save, which you don't. In that regard, Mind Fog is not useless, because if you get it to work, that all those other Will save spells are that much more effective. My players hate this spell because of that. I have used it to great effect. It is not, IMHO, useless. Not every spell with a save works, thats the nature of the game. When this one does, it surpasses all other penalties from spells with one single shot, and lasts a long long time.
runestar 12-06-06, 04:12 AM	On general principal, I agree. That's assuming you know he's gonna fail his Will save, which you don't. In that regard, Mind Fog is not useless, because if you get it to work, that all those other Will save spells are that much more effective. I don't understand...:confused: You cast mind fog and the target makes his will save, that's a 5th lv slot down the drain for a 3rd lv effect... If the target failed his save, your next will save spell will have a much easier time affecting him(I say easier since success is still uncertain, and a natural 20 is still an auto-save). But in this case, said spell might as well have been the original spell you wanted to smack him with. Is there some intricacies to this spell which my thick skull is failing to grasp?:confused:
Shatteredtower 12-06-06, 04:34 AM	The biggest drawback to mind fog is that you have no idea who's been affected by it. If you knew it affected an enemy cleric, then you know you've got a much better chance of getting charm person to work than you would have if you'd cast it first. Likewise, if you knew that it affected three of the seven members of an enemy group, you'd know which ones are the best targets for that next Will save spell, even if it's a higher level spell. Even with that option, however, it's a poor preliminary to any spell that affects an area and allows a Will save -- with the possible exception of disjunction or any other spell that requires multiple Will saves per targetted creature.