Cleric Spells, Shields and Wands [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Spells, Shields and Wands [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Halvenfast
07-23-04, 02:25 AM The Cleric is proficient with all shields(except Tower Shields), but when casting a spell with somatic component the spellcaster needs to have a free hand to complete those components. the Heavy shield allow you to do these movements freely? will my cleric armed with a battleaxe and heavy shield be able to cast his spells?

In the DMG the activation section of the wands describes that it needs to be pointed to the target or area of the spell. So, the spell is considered ranged? if it is what is the range of a Cure light wounds spell?

Thanks
tarkin
07-23-04, 11:27 AM You are allowed to use a Holy Symbol Painted on your shield. It costs the same as a regular Holy Symbol to have it painted onto your shield in a thorough, stand up to weapons and demon ichor manner.

Wands do NOT make spells ranged if they are not already ranged. The pointing thing only applies to ranged spells. For touch spells you have to touch the wand to the target.
meabolex
07-23-04, 11:46 AM Originally posted by Halvenfast
The Cleric is proficient with all shields(except Tower Shields), but when casting a spell with somatic component the spellcaster needs to have a free hand to complete those components. the Heavy shield allow you to do these movements freely? will my cleric armed with a battleaxe and heavy shield be able to cast his spells?
This is one limitation of clerics that is seldom enforced, only because it seems like a major hinderance to the cleric. Well, I think the cleric needs some hinderance (:

If you are using a light/heavy shield in one hand and a weapon in another hand, you can't cast spells with somatic components. You can either drop or sheathe your weapon (not recommended) or you can ready or loose your shield (recommended because no attacks of opportunity). From the Skip movement article:
Ready or Loose a Shield: Use this action when you strap a shield to your arm (or grab a buckler) to claim its shield bonus to Armor Class. Likewise, you can loose a shield and sling it over your back. You lose the shield's bonus to Armor Class (the check penalty from the shield still applies though), but you have your hand free and the shield is hanging there, ready to use with another move action. Readying or loosing a shield takes time, but isn't too complicated, so it does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or more, you can ready or loose a shield as part of your movement. That is, you can use a move action to move up to your speed and also ready or loose a shield as part of that move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or more and you don't move, you still have to use a move action to ready or loose a shield.

If you've already loosed your shield (or you're just carrying it), you can drop it as a free action.
Note if you use a buckler, you don't have this problem. You can cast spells with somatic components with your buckler hand.

Tarkin: Having the divine focus on your shield won't help you to cast spells with somatic components if you have no hands free.
In the DMG the activation section of the wands describes that it needs to be pointed to the target or area of the spell. So, the spell is considered ranged? if it is what is the range of a Cure light wounds spell?
You point the CLW wand at the creature you're touching to discharge the CLW spell. CLW has no range (but Mass CLW does).
Joklun
07-23-04, 01:09 PM Locked gauntlet...

Just let your weapon drop from your hand, it will still be linked to your gauntlet, yet you can cast, getting back the weapon would be fairly easy in the next round.
meabolex
07-23-04, 01:42 PM Originally posted by Joklun
Locked gauntlet...

Just let your weapon drop from your hand, it will still be linked to your gauntlet, yet you can cast, getting back the weapon would be fairly easy in the next round.
Except:
While the gauntlet is locked, you can’t use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills. (You can still cast spells with somatic components, provided that your other hand is free.)
Krelios
07-23-04, 01:49 PM This is a common mistake. A Light Shield allows you to cast spells, a Heavy Shield or Tower Shield does not...
From the SRD...
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.From the SRD...
Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.From the SRD...
Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.From the SRD...
Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.I like Tarkin's suggestion that you can paint a holy symbol on your shield but it is a house rule (not in the Core Rules). Even so, a Holy Symbol is used for turning, not for spell casting (except where specific spells require it as a focus).
meabolex
07-23-04, 01:56 PM From the SRD...
Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive.

We'll just have to wait for an official clarification (since it isn't mentioned anywhere in the books).
Krelios
07-23-04, 02:00 PM Originally posted by meabolex
Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive.

We'll just have to wait for an official clarification (since it isn't mentioned anywhere in the books). If you can carry something in your hand, it's a free hand. The only difference in this case is that you cannot use a weapon with that free hand. However, I respect your right to disagree--after all, that's the point of all this discussion.
tarkin
07-23-04, 02:04 PM Meabolex is correct, the Holy Symbol on the Shield trick does not work for spells that have Somatic Components.

Note however that a lot of Divine Spells do not have Somatic Componets.
meabolex
07-23-04, 02:07 PM Originally posted by Krelios
If you can carry something in your hand, it's a free hand. The only difference in this case is that you cannot use a weapon with that free hand. However, I respect your right to disagree--after all, that's the point of all this discussion.
Thanks (:

Well, that analogy makes sense. A hand that can carry something is considered free for most mechanical means in the game. A hand that is not free is usually holding something or busy.

But the hand holding a light shield is doing both: it can hold something AND it's busy (as the shield description says, it usually grips the shield -- but apparently it can ungrip the shield too). Does an ungrip mean the shield is usable in combat (i.e., does the wielder get the shield bonus to AC)?

But nothing we've said deals with the central issue: Does this interfere with somatic components. The shield weight is not an issue -- that's covered by arcane spell failure.

HMM. . .
Krelios
07-23-04, 02:13 PM Originally posted by meabolex
But nothing we've said deals with the central issue: Does this interfere with somatic components. That is an issue I would love official clarification on, since it's not 100% clear. Right now it's up to individual DMs... I can see either ruling having some side effects:

If you allow spellcasting with a Light Shield and Weapon, nothing changes for most people (except those who allow spellcasting with Heavy Shields).

If you don't allow spellcasting with a Light Shield and Weapon, most clerics will start taking two-handed weapons (since you can hold it in one hand and cast).

I'm not sure either one is better than the other, but an official opinion would certainly make many people's lives easier.
meabolex
07-23-04, 02:19 PM You're right -- the classic cleric usually has a shield.

Light shield = somatic components possible it is (:

BTW, I've been informed by a friend of mine that I was told this exact same thing months ago but can't remember. I guess that's old age creeping up on me (:
mercurial67
07-23-04, 03:12 PM Originally posted by meabolex
Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive. But having a free hand allows you to hold your weapon in the free hand (transfering from wielding hand to holding hand as a free action) while you cast a spell.
nyphoenix79
07-23-04, 04:13 PM Thats why you just stick with a buckler, same shield bonus as a small shield-- but nice free hand for somatic components and what not. :smirk:
Evandar_TAybara
07-23-04, 07:01 PM Personally I would only allow a buckler hand to perform somatic components. If I did allow a light shield hand to be used I would definitely not allow the shield AC bonus to count for that round (as by the description quoted, the shield must be gripped).

Tarkin - you mentioned that alot of divine spells do not have somatic components. Are you sure? I know most of them don't have material components, but a quick flick through the PH shows most spells (whether arcane or divine) tend to have both verbal and somatic components.

Evan.
primemover003
07-23-04, 07:08 PM Originally posted by mercurial67
But having a free hand allows you to hold your weapon in the free hand (transfering from wielding hand to holding hand as a free action) while you cast a spell.
Exactly.... why are you worried about the shield hand???

A loop of leather on your weapons lets you drop them but keep it handy. Cast your spell with your weapon hand. This way you don't lose your AC. When you want to attack you re-arm your weapon "as part of a move action" (+1 BAB or higher) or a free action (w/ Quick Draw).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Halvenfast 07-23-04, 02:25 AM	The Cleric is proficient with all shields(except Tower Shields), but when casting a spell with somatic component the spellcaster needs to have a free hand to complete those components. the Heavy shield allow you to do these movements freely? will my cleric armed with a battleaxe and heavy shield be able to cast his spells? In the DMG the activation section of the wands describes that it needs to be pointed to the target or area of the spell. So, the spell is considered ranged? if it is what is the range of a Cure light wounds spell? Thanks
tarkin 07-23-04, 11:27 AM	You are allowed to use a Holy Symbol Painted on your shield. It costs the same as a regular Holy Symbol to have it painted onto your shield in a thorough, stand up to weapons and demon ichor manner. Wands do NOT make spells ranged if they are not already ranged. The pointing thing only applies to ranged spells. For touch spells you have to touch the wand to the target.
meabolex 07-23-04, 11:46 AM	Originally posted by Halvenfast The Cleric is proficient with all shields(except Tower Shields), but when casting a spell with somatic component the spellcaster needs to have a free hand to complete those components. the Heavy shield allow you to do these movements freely? will my cleric armed with a battleaxe and heavy shield be able to cast his spells? This is one limitation of clerics that is seldom enforced, only because it seems like a major hinderance to the cleric. Well, I think the cleric needs some hinderance (: If you are using a light/heavy shield in one hand and a weapon in another hand, you can't cast spells with somatic components. You can either drop or sheathe your weapon (not recommended) or you can ready or loose your shield (recommended because no attacks of opportunity). From the Skip movement article: Ready or Loose a Shield: Use this action when you strap a shield to your arm (or grab a buckler) to claim its shield bonus to Armor Class. Likewise, you can loose a shield and sling it over your back. You lose the shield's bonus to Armor Class (the check penalty from the shield still applies though), but you have your hand free and the shield is hanging there, ready to use with another move action. Readying or loosing a shield takes time, but isn't too complicated, so it does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or more, you can ready or loose a shield as part of your movement. That is, you can use a move action to move up to your speed and also ready or loose a shield as part of that move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or more and you don't move, you still have to use a move action to ready or loose a shield. If you've already loosed your shield (or you're just carrying it), you can drop it as a free action. Note if you use a buckler, you don't have this problem. You can cast spells with somatic components with your buckler hand. Tarkin: Having the divine focus on your shield won't help you to cast spells with somatic components if you have no hands free. In the DMG the activation section of the wands describes that it needs to be pointed to the target or area of the spell. So, the spell is considered ranged? if it is what is the range of a Cure light wounds spell? You point the CLW wand at the creature you're touching to discharge the CLW spell. CLW has no range (but Mass CLW does).
Joklun 07-23-04, 01:09 PM	Locked gauntlet... Just let your weapon drop from your hand, it will still be linked to your gauntlet, yet you can cast, getting back the weapon would be fairly easy in the next round.
meabolex 07-23-04, 01:42 PM	Originally posted by Joklun Locked gauntlet... Just let your weapon drop from your hand, it will still be linked to your gauntlet, yet you can cast, getting back the weapon would be fairly easy in the next round. Except: While the gauntlet is locked, you can’t use the hand wearing it for casting spells or employing skills. (You can still cast spells with somatic components, provided that your other hand is free.)
Krelios 07-23-04, 01:49 PM	This is a common mistake. A Light Shield allows you to cast spells, a Heavy Shield or Tower Shield does not... From the SRD... Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.From the SRD... Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.From the SRD... Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.From the SRD... Shield, Tower: This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.I like Tarkin's suggestion that you can paint a holy symbol on your shield but it is a house rule (not in the Core Rules). Even so, a Holy Symbol is used for turning, not for spell casting (except where specific spells require it as a focus).
meabolex 07-23-04, 01:56 PM	From the SRD... Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive. We'll just have to wait for an official clarification (since it isn't mentioned anywhere in the books).
Krelios 07-23-04, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive. We'll just have to wait for an official clarification (since it isn't mentioned anywhere in the books). If you can carry something in your hand, it's a free hand. The only difference in this case is that you cannot use a weapon with that free hand. However, I respect your right to disagree--after all, that's the point of all this discussion.
tarkin 07-23-04, 02:04 PM	Meabolex is correct, the Holy Symbol on the Shield trick does not work for spells that have Somatic Components. Note however that a lot of Divine Spells do not have Somatic Componets.
meabolex 07-23-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by Krelios If you can carry something in your hand, it's a free hand. The only difference in this case is that you cannot use a weapon with that free hand. However, I respect your right to disagree--after all, that's the point of all this discussion. Thanks (: Well, that analogy makes sense. A hand that can carry something is considered free for most mechanical means in the game. A hand that is not free is usually holding something or busy. But the hand holding a light shield is doing both: it can hold something AND it's busy (as the shield description says, it usually grips the shield -- but apparently it can ungrip the shield too). Does an ungrip mean the shield is usable in combat (i.e., does the wielder get the shield bonus to AC)? But nothing we've said deals with the central issue: Does this interfere with somatic components. The shield weight is not an issue -- that's covered by arcane spell failure. HMM. . .
Krelios 07-23-04, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by meabolex But nothing we've said deals with the central issue: Does this interfere with somatic components. That is an issue I would love official clarification on, since it's not 100% clear. Right now it's up to individual DMs... I can see either ruling having some side effects: If you allow spellcasting with a Light Shield and Weapon, nothing changes for most people (except those who allow spellcasting with Heavy Shields). If you don't allow spellcasting with a Light Shield and Weapon, most clerics will start taking two-handed weapons (since you can hold it in one hand and cast). I'm not sure either one is better than the other, but an official opinion would certainly make many people's lives easier.
meabolex 07-23-04, 02:19 PM	You're right -- the classic cleric usually has a shield. Light shield = somatic components possible it is (: BTW, I've been informed by a friend of mine that I was told this exact same thing months ago but can't remember. I guess that's old age creeping up on me (:
mercurial67 07-23-04, 03:12 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Having a free hand is not a requisite of carrying items in that hand. This is an assumption not based on fact, but on pattern-based evidence -- which is inconclusive. But having a free hand allows you to hold your weapon in the free hand (transfering from wielding hand to holding hand as a free action) while you cast a spell.
nyphoenix79 07-23-04, 04:13 PM	Thats why you just stick with a buckler, same shield bonus as a small shield-- but nice free hand for somatic components and what not. :smirk:
Evandar_TAybara 07-23-04, 07:01 PM	Personally I would only allow a buckler hand to perform somatic components. If I did allow a light shield hand to be used I would definitely not allow the shield AC bonus to count for that round (as by the description quoted, the shield must be gripped). Tarkin - you mentioned that alot of divine spells do not have somatic components. Are you sure? I know most of them don't have material components, but a quick flick through the PH shows most spells (whether arcane or divine) tend to have both verbal and somatic components. Evan.
primemover003 07-23-04, 07:08 PM	Originally posted by mercurial67 But having a free hand allows you to hold your weapon in the free hand (transfering from wielding hand to holding hand as a free action) while you cast a spell. Exactly.... why are you worried about the shield hand??? A loop of leather on your weapons lets you drop them but keep it handy. Cast your spell with your weapon hand. This way you don't lose your AC. When you want to attack you re-arm your weapon "as part of a move action" (+1 BAB or higher) or a free action (w/ Quick Draw).