Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phaseroth 06-17-05, 07:47 AM	First off, my only actual D&D play experience consists of about five sessions playing an elf rogue and one session playing a paladin. I didn't create the rogue myself - I took over the character at 2nd level after another player left the group (I was invited in to replace that player). The rogue was nearly to 4th-level when my group broke up due to a married couple in the group having marital problems. I created the paladin for a short side adventure when our DM was out of town one week, and so he didn't even get as far as 2nd-level. Because I don’t have a group to play with right now, I’m sitting here practicing my character creation skills. To keep things simple, I'm just using the starting packages provided in the PHB. I’ve made a fighter, a bard and a barbarian. Now I’m working on a cleric, and I’m stuck on the spells. The spells are confusing me. Specifically, I don’t get how to determine how many spells my cleric actually knows. I get the “Spells per day” thing - that’s shown right there on Table 3-6 (PHB). So, this 1st-level cleric has a Wisdom score of 16, and his spells per day look like this: 0-level: 3/day, no bonus spells 1-level: 1+1/day, 1 bonus spell If I’ve figured these numbers correctly, this breaks down to 5 normal spells per day and one domain spell per day. Right? But how many spells does he know? I’ve read the Cleric section (PHB 30-33) several times, and I’m not seeing it. Is this information listed someplace else in the book? This is going to be a cleric of Kol Korran (Eberron). My chosen domains are Charm (Eberron-specific) and Travel. My 1st-level domain spells will be Charm Person and Longstrider. I just need to pick my normal spells, but I can’t figure out how many. The arcane spellcaster classes each include a list of "Spells Known" ("Spellbook" in the case of the Wizard) in the sample starting package, but the divine classes do not. Do divine spellcasters know all of the appropriate spells at each level? Once I've created a character of each class, I plan to practice advancing each character a few levels, so I'm going to have to deal with this at each level. Help?
journeyman777 06-17-05, 07:52 AM	He knows every cleric spell on the list. Yes, that means ALL of them. Yet another reason why clerics and druids are so much fun to use :) (Whether he can actually cast them all is a whole different issue.
Radijs 06-17-05, 08:01 AM	Yep You know EVERY SINGLE DIVINE SPELL. Isn't that marvellous? Every night when you go to bed you pray to your god and ask for the spells you want to use the next day. So you prepare them in much the same way as a wizard. But you can always trade in a prepared spell to cast a cure spell of the same level. (cure spells are all spells that begin with cure. Example: Cure moderate wounds.) If you're an evil cleric you can spontaneously cast inflict spells.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 08:20 AM	Actually, praying at dawn is almost always better than praying at night. (Whether you have that option is up to your deity) Clerics, like all casters, count spells cast in the last 8 hours against their spells per day when they memorize. Since you need 8 hours of sleep (as a char, not to be able to prepare spells) and won't be casting in your sleep (obviously), being able to pray for your spells right after you wake is the most efficient option. Besides, if you have an arcane caster in the group, you're probably going to be sitting around doing nothing while they prepare their spells anyway.
Nom 06-17-05, 09:09 AM	Clerics never "pick spells known", so to speak. Instead, they can memorise any available spell. Their standard slots can be used for any spell from the standard cleric list (subject to spell level restrictions), while their domain slots can be only used for domain spells. For standard spells, there's no spells that are "on list but not known", unlike wizards and sorcerers. Note that there may be "rare" spells that are only available to casters in certain traditions or scribed on tomes waiting to be discovered. Such spells do not automatically become part of the cleric's standard (or domain) list, but must be discovered and learned in a manner similar to a wizard learning a spell. The existence and availability of such spells is up to the DM. So said cleric could memorize 3 cantrips from the list on PH pg 183, 2 1st level spells from the list on PH pg 183, and one of charm person and longstrider in the domain slot. Note that the domain spells always remain completely distinct from the cleric spells, even if they are the same spell. For example, your cleric has access to locate object as a level 2 travel spell and a level 3 cleric spell, but you cannot memorize the level 2 (travel) version in a standard cleric slot, nor the level 3 (cleric) version in a domain slot. For the purposes of preparation and casting they are effectively different spells. Other important rules: * Within a list (cleric or domain), you can always fill a slot with a lower-level spell than it is capable of holding (PH pg 180). You gain no special benefit from doing so. * Prepared cleric (but not domain) spells may be converted into an equivalent level cure ... wounds spell at the time of casting (cure minor wounds for level 0, cure light wounds for level 1, and so on). Evil clerics convert spells into inflict spells instead. * When preparing spells, you may choose to prepare a slot as empty, and then spend 15 minutes filling it later (see PH pg 180 and pg 178). You can only do this to a slot you prepared as empty, not one that has already been used for the day. Obviously you don't want to do this for front-line combat spells, but it can be handy to be able to pick and choose between utility spells.
Odin_666 06-17-05, 01:17 PM	* When preparing spells, you may choose to prepare a slot as empty, and then spend 15 minutes filling it later (see PH pg 180 and pg 178). You can only do this to a slot you prepared as empty, not one that has already been used for the day. Obviously you don't want to do this for front-line combat spells, but it can be handy to be able to pick and choose between utility spells. There is only written, that you don't have to prepare all your slots at your first time, but there isn't mentioned that you can prepare them later. In fact there is written, that you can only prepare them at a particular time. and I don't see how it makes sense, that you have (!) to choose a time, at which you must (!) prepare your spells, when you could also prepare them anytime later if you want to...
Odin_666 06-17-05, 01:18 PM	:D
journeyman777 06-17-05, 01:37 PM	I already noted that the 8 hours of sleep was necessary for the character, NOT for spell preparation. Unless you are an elf, your char needs 8 hours of sleep regardless of your class. If you're going to quote me, at least include the entire sentence, will you?
Odin_666 06-17-05, 02:28 PM	:) sorry, seems that I overread it...
journeyman777 06-17-05, 02:31 PM	No harm, no foul. ::Nice guy pose:: :cool:
Zherog 06-17-05, 02:36 PM	I already noted that the 8 hours of sleep was necessary for the character, NOT for spell preparation. Unless you are an elf, your char needs 8 hours of sleep regardless of your class. If you're going to quote me, at least include the entire sentence, will you? That's not true at all, actually. It should be true that all characters need 8 hours of rest, but only arcane casters are required to get rest.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 02:52 PM	I could be wrong, but don't you require a minimum of 8 hours of rest to regain ability/hit points naturally?
Zherog 06-17-05, 03:34 PM	you're correct. That doesn't mean every player has to rest, though. It just means if you want to heal your level worth of hit points you need to rest. Otherwise, nothing in the rules actually prevents you from being awake nonstop forever. It's silly and it's meaningless - but the only classes that needs rest are arcane casters, assuming they want to prepare spells.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 03:46 PM	I swear this used to be in the rules somewhere: If you do not rest for at least 8 hours per day you become fatigued. If you do not rest for at least 4 hours or go a second day without resting for 8 than you become exhausted. These effects may not be removed by spells. These effects disappear once you rest for at least 8 hours. I believe there was also a rule that required you to make increasingly difficult constitution checks to stay awake. I could be wrong.
Zherog 06-17-05, 03:50 PM	Not bad - though I'd allow a CON check of some sort that got progressively worse before instituting the fatigued condition. I've stayed up for 24 hours before, and as long as the adrenaline and caffeine are pumping, there's no problems. ;) But that is indeed a house rule, not part of the core rules. Like I said, it's a silly thing that's missing. Sort of like there not actually being any rules that you need to eat or drink. It's just one of those things that's assumed.
journeyman777 06-17-05, 03:52 PM	An simulation of an adventure with all the boring stuff taken out.
Zherog 06-17-05, 04:01 PM	:D Indeed. :D
dulldoll 06-17-05, 05:51 PM	* When preparing spells, you may choose to prepare a slot as empty, and then spend 15 minutes filling it later (see PH pg 180 and pg 178). You can only do this to a slot you prepared as empty, not one that has already been used for the day. Obviously you don't want to do this for front-line combat spells, but it can be handy to be able to pick and choose between utility spells. I thought this was a Wizard only thing, and Clerics should prepare at certain time of a day only. Correct me if I was wrong.
Phaseroth 06-17-05, 07:02 PM	I've stayed up for 24 hours before, and as long as the adrenaline and caffeine are pumping, there's no problems. ;) *heh* I stayed up for 56 hours once. But that was back when I was a young 20 years old. I wouldn't dare try it now! Anyway, thanks, everybody, for clearing up my spell confusion. Now I can move on to generating a druid :) Oh, wait, one more thing: Regarding "Specialty School" and "Forbidden Schools"... do those only apply to arcane casters? (This character sheet has spaces for those things). Or should I mark on my character sheet that my CG cleric can only cast Chaos and Good spells, and that Law and Evil spells are forbidden?
Centauri 06-17-05, 07:07 PM	Oh, wait, one more thing: Regarding "Specialty School" and "Forbidden Schools"... do those only apply to arcane casters? Or should I mark on my character sheet that my CG cleric can only cast Chaos and Good spells, and that Law and Evil spells are forbidden? Your Cleric chooses two Domains. They could be Chaos and Good, but they could be Sun and Air, or Luck and Healing, or any combination your DM will allow that doesn't contradict itself or your alignment (I don't think you can choose Law and Chaos, even if you're Neutral, but I could be wrong). You aren't supposed to be granted or even ask for spells from domains opposed to your alignment, or your deity's alignment (assuming you have a deity), but you aren't restricted only to the domains of your alignment.
Phaseroth 06-17-05, 10:23 PM	I guess I worded that last question badly. Actually, I didn't really understand what I was talking about before I asked :D I was thinking about the way this cleric's alignment (as well as his deity's) is Chaotic Good, so he can cast spells that contain "Chaos" or "Good" in the spell description, but is not allowed to cast spells that have "Law" or "Evil" in the description. For example: My good cleric cannot cast Animate Dead, because the spell's descriptor says, "Necromancy [Evil]" But, he can cast Bless Water because the spell's descriptor says, "Transmutation [Good]" So I was just approaching it wrong. Looking at the spell descriptions, I see that there really aren't that many spells classified as "Good" or "Evil". I was making more of it that necessary :)
Nephlite 06-17-05, 10:28 PM	I guess I worded that last question badly. Actually, I didn't really understand what I was talking about before I asked :D I was thinking about the way this cleric's alignment (as well as his deity's) is Chaotic Good, so he can cast spells that contain "Chaos" or "Good" in the spell description, but is not allowed to cast spells that have "Law" or "Evil" in the description. For example: My good cleric cannot cast Animate Dead, because the spell's descriptor says, "Necromancy [Evil]" But, he can cast Bless Water because the spell's descriptor says, "Transmutation [Good]" So I was just approaching it wrong. Looking at the spell descriptions, I see that there really aren't that many spells classified as "Good" or "Evil". I was making more of it that necessary :) You could just find a new god to cast those prohibited spells: though you'd lose your domains for news ones (but maybe new god has one of old) But yeah, you know all non-alignment prohibuted cleric spells. Unless you are True Nuetral: than you know all!
Nom 06-18-05, 07:45 AM	There is only written, that you don't have to prepare all your slots at your first time, but there isn't mentioned that you can prepare them later. In fact there is written, that you can only prepare them at a particular time. and I don't see how it makes sense, that you have (!) to choose a time, at which you must (!) prepare your spells, when you could also prepare them anytime later if you want to...At least it looks like you read PH pg 180. However, let's take another look. PH pg 179 Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. ... Time of Day: ... However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to prepare and receive spells. ... PH pg 180 The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard ... A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character's mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.An arcane caster requires a period of rest before they can reuse their spell slots (and implicitly can only do this once per day) (PH pg 178-179). A divine caster instead has a particular time of day. However, both can choose to leave slots empty for later preparation. Only these slots can be filled later, not slots that are subsequently used or become empty. Both a cleric and a wizard can defer when they fill theit slots, but a cleric cannot defer when they are reset. While it is completely legal to spend only the minimum 15 minutes (PH pg 178) preparing spells and leave all your slots empty to be filled later, this isn't necessarily a good idea. As to not sleeping, the easiest way to model this is the forced march rules in PH chapter 9. It's not quite the same thing, but close enough.