Post/Author/DateTime	Post
icnivad 10-02-06, 03:12 PM	I'm thinking of making a multiclass character of this sort with the Mystic Theurge or similar PrC. Any thoughts on weather you'd prefer a Wizard or Sorc? so far my thinking is thus: Wouldn't need the flexability of spells that a Wizard offers because cleric would offer some of those spells (point to Sorc) Mystic Theurge requires ability to cast 2nd level divine and arcane spells. Wizards get Sp2 at 3, while Sorc get Sp2 at 4, which would mean a loss of 1 Cleric Spell level progression (Point to Wizard)
tarkin 10-02-06, 03:30 PM	The trade off is basically more flexibility in spells for a lower max level. But that is the SAME trade off you made when you choose to play a mystic theurge in the first place. So if your decision was a no brainer to play Mystic Theurge, go for Sorceror. The non-prime spells you lose as a Sorceror can be gained from Cleric. But if you were ambivelent on playing a Mystic Theurge, hesitant to give up the 3 casting levels you need to qualify for it, then go for the Wizard so you don't delay higher level spells by yet another level.
IMarvinTPA 10-02-06, 03:31 PM	Wizard/Archivist They both use Intelligence for DCs and ability to Cast. Wizard uses Intelligence for bonus spells. Archivist uses Wisdom for bonus spells. So you can have an 8 in Wis and just not have any bonus spells, but since it takes Int to cast them, you're in the clear. Otherwise, Archivist is close enough to Cleric that it's all good. If you don't have Heroes of Horror, just look up the Excerpt on the site and the full class description is there. IMarv
Seeker95 10-02-06, 06:13 PM	Aside from IMarvinTPA's suggestion (which is the most optimal, by the way), I would prefer a cleric sorcerer over a cleric wizard. The greater spell selection ability of the wizard has never appealed to me when compared to the greater repeatability factor of a sorcerer.
Johnny_Angel 10-02-06, 10:43 PM	I have a similar question; instead of starting a new thread, I decided to ask here since it's a very similar question. How effective do you think a Sorceror/Favored Soul would be? I was considering doing the same thing (taking the Mystic Theurge Prc.) My other option I was considering was a Druid/Sorceror and taking the Arcane Heirophant from Races of The Wild. I have 25 levels to play with, so I don't have to worry about giving up spell levels by taking a PrC. Flavorwise, they both appeal to me. I like the spontaneous castic concept of a sorceror/favored sould, but the sorceror/druid idea would be interesting too since my character is going to be playing up the fact that his abilities are natural.
texanhick20 10-02-06, 10:49 PM	i would go with Wiz1/cleric 3 into mystic theurge. But wait! how can you go into mystic theurge with only one level of Wizard Texanhick! you may be asking. 1st level feat Precocious Apprentice you learn 1 second level spell which you can cast 1/day with a successful DC 8 caster level check. between that feat, and 3 levels of Cleric, you can meet all the pre-reqs for mystic theurge by 5th level instead of 6th with the Wiz3/cleric3 progression. Another nice thing about the feat is it works for sorcerers too, so you could go Sorcerer1/cleric3 and still get the same PRC at the same time.
Mitchell 10-02-06, 11:11 PM	What is the level cap you are looking at? Assuming a 20 level progression, cleric 3/ sorcerer 4/ MT 10 leaves you with 3 levels to play with. You can go up to 6 as a sorcerer and unlock 8th level spells, but cleric is stuck with level 7 spells. If you take cleric up to 5, it unlocks 8th level cleric spells, but you are stuck with sorcerer spells of level 7. Wizard, on the other hand, would allow over the same 20 levels cleric 3/ wizard 3/ MT 10 with 4 levels left over that will allow you to get 8th level spells with both classes, or go up to 9th level with one class while the other stays at 7.
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 12:38 AM	I have 25 levels to use.
smrtgmp 10-03-06, 12:46 AM	...Precocious Apprentice......wont do what you want it to. the moment you gain access to 2nd level spells (including divine), you lose access to that free 2nd level wizard spell, thereby no longer qualifying for Mystic Theurge. It would work if you were going for cerbromancer, since psionic classes never gain spells, but not for any dual progression class that uses two different spellcasters.
FeceMan 10-03-06, 01:47 AM	i would go with Wiz1/cleric 3 into mystic theurge. But wait! how can you go into mystic theurge with only one level of Wizard Texanhick! you may be asking. 1st level feat Precocious Apprentice you learn 1 second level spell which you can cast 1/day with a successful DC 8 caster level check. between that feat, and 3 levels of Cleric, you can meet all the pre-reqs for mystic theurge by 5th level instead of 6th with the Wiz3/cleric3 progression. Another nice thing about the feat is it works for sorcerers too, so you could go Sorcerer1/cleric3 and still get the same PRC at the same time. No. I have a similar question; instead of starting a new thread, I decided to ask here since it's a very similar question. How effective do you think a Sorceror/Favored Soul would be? I was considering doing the same thing (taking the Mystic Theurge Prc.) My other option I was considering was a Druid/Sorceror and taking the Arcane Heirophant from Races of The Wild. I have 25 levels to play with, so I don't have to worry about giving up spell levels by taking a PrC. Flavorwise, they both appeal to me. I like the spontaneous castic concept of a sorceror/favored sould, but the sorceror/druid idea would be interesting too since my character is going to be playing up the fact that his abilities are natural. To be blunt: not very. Straight favored soul is fine, and the wings are cool. There is indeed synergy between the two, but only getting seventh level spells instead of eighth (as normal with characters who do not have retarded caster progression) hurts a lot, and so do the d4 HD thrown into the mix.
kjenks 10-03-06, 08:53 AM	I have a very silly gnome in the Living Greyhawk campaign who has both Favored Soul and Sorcerer levels. And a level of Warmage, with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. At level 3, with 18 Cha, he has kilotons of spells. But you shouldn't do this in a normal campaign. This character is loads of fun for low level play, but it would really stick at high levels.
User5127 10-03-06, 09:43 AM	wait wait.. practised spell caster. damn some one beat me to it. and Wizard/Archivist is probably the best combination, since you can also learn druid spells now. (something i want to do for gestalt :p) cleric/sorcerer means that you can still benifit with your Cha & Wis. since cleric would use both. downside is loss of one level for cleric. but practised spell caster brings up your caster level, so it's fairly balanced from then on. cleric/wizard means you need wis and int (Cha if you turn/rebuke), upside, no loss of any levels. again practices spellcaster brings up the missing caster levels anyways. so judge for yourself what you think is best. i prefer the spell book of a wizard ANd all cleric divine spells, (but i'm greedy). in fact that reason alone makes me prefer Wizard/Archivist since i get cleric/wizard/sorcerer/and druid spells. hmmmm i think ineed to change my pants. :p
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 01:55 PM	To be blunt: not very. Straight favored soul is fine, and the wings are cool. There is indeed synergy between the two, but only getting seventh level spells instead of eighth (as normal with characters who do not have retarded caster progression) hurts a lot, and so do the d4 HD thrown into the mix. I was under the impression that I would eventually have 9th level spells with both classes. I realize that advancement changes after epic, but I'm pretty sure that (for spell casters) you still gain the spells known & spells per day that you normally would. I was under the impression that your spell casting advancement didn't stop until each class was at caster level 20. What I mean is the following: Favored Soul/Sorceror + Mystic Theurge would give me an effective caster level as though I had advanced in both classes, but I would still be missing 3 or 4 levels due to having to be both classes in the first place. However, from what I understand of the RAW, after hitting 20th level, I can still take levels in both Sorc and FS which would continue to advance my level in each until I had the full spellcasting progression from each class. So eventually I would have 9th level spells from both classes. I do know that BAB and saves stop at 20th level, but I'm about 90% sure that your spell casting progression doesn't stop until you've actually maxed out whatever class you are (i.e. wizard, sorceror, whatever. I know it sounds silly, but a Figher 20/Wizard 20 actually ends up being stronger than a Wizard 20/Fighter 20 because of how this works out; there are a lot of other threads on the boards about it. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I'm going to end up with 9th level spells regardless; I'm simply asking for some help deciding between a Mystic Theurge and an Arcane Herophant. As far as the Mystic Theurge though, I'm unsure if I'd rather have a sorc/cleric or a sorc/favored soul. Now that I think about it more, I suppose that technically I could be a sorc/druid mystic theurge; max out mystic theurge and then start taking levels in arcane herophant and get all of the benefits. I think that would work.
smallfishnova 10-03-06, 02:27 PM	For a MT, his greatest advantage should be the numerous spell selection and spell per day. cleric/wizard and cleric/sorcerer focus on either side. While some divine spell is equal to arcane spell, i think the cleric help the sorcerer side more. Besides, it is your view that skill point is important or not since wiz/clr with get much more skill point that sor/clr anyway...though sor/clr get more turn undead per day...(divine metamagic?!...) For epic game, sorcerer is better, money and epic feat solve all the problem a sorcerer has. (7 times wish per day without paying 35,000exp...crazy...)
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 02:35 PM	My whole reason for considering a Favored Soul/Sorceror is the idea that everything I can cast would be spontaneous, but I wasn't sure how well that would work out when compared to a cleric/sorceror. I know that as a FS I would be giving up the ability to turn undead, but what would I gain? I'm not sure that I fully understand how the spell casting of the favored soul works; I need to read it some more.
FeceMan 10-03-06, 02:54 PM	Words, fool. Ah, yes, if you're going into epic, it is fine. However, most builds are a fairly standard twenty levels, and I thought that is from where you are going. If you choose to go into epic, you will not--I repeat, NOT--take epic mystic theurge levels. They are horrendously bad, unless your DM house rules that epic MT levels increase divine and arcane caster levels at each level instead of the idiotic alternate progression. Then just go favored soul 4/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 10/favored soul X/sorcerer X. [Yes, favored soul levels are just that much better than sorcerer levels.] Unfortunately, the build suffers from some MAD. Fortunately, you'll be able to take arcane disciple (assuming you pump your wisdom).
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 03:31 PM	Ah, yes, if you're going into epic, it is fine. However, most builds are a fairly standard twenty levels, and I thought that is from where you are going. If you choose to go into epic, you will not--I repeat, NOT--take epic mystic theurge levels. They are horrendously bad, unless your DM house rules that epic MT levels increase divine and arcane caster levels at each level instead of the idiotic alternate progression. Then just go favored soul 4/sorcerer 4/mystic theurge 10/favored soul X/sorcerer X. [Yes, favored soul levels are just that much better than sorcerer levels.] Unfortunately, the build suffers from some MAD. Fortunately, you'll be able to take arcane disciple (assuming you pump your wisdom). See, this is where I am confused because everyone keeps saying that there is an alternate progression, but the text for the Mystical Theurge doesn't say that. "class features Spells per Day: When a new Mystic Theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spell casting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spell casting class he belonged to previously. He does not however gain any other benefits..."blah blah blah...reading futher down..ok...here we go..."for example, a 3rd-level cleric/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in mystic theurge has the same access to spells as a 4th-level cleric and a 4th-level wizard. But he still turns undead as a 3rd-level cleric..." Now it does say that if you have more than one arcane or more than one divine class that you have to pick which one you add the level of MT to, but I interpret that as meaning the following: Sorc 3/FS 3 adds a level of MT; no problem; you cast spells as a Sorc 4/FS 4 However, if you were (for sake of an example) a Sorceror 3/Cleric 3/Druid 3 and you add a level of MT, you have to choose between Cleric or Druid for the benefit of the divine part of the MT level; hence, you would cast spells as either A) Sorc 4/Cleric 4/Druid 3 or B) Sorc 4/Cleric 3/Druid 4. As far as a 2 classed character though (with one divine and one arcane class,) there is no alternate progression; both increase at the same rate; both the text and the charts support that. I guess I'm starting to answer my own question though. The problem I see now is that the MT PrC is only 10 levels long, so, eventually, I will need to start seperately increasing my Sorc and whatever-else-I-take levels seperately. With that in mind, maybe I should take Druid because then I would qualify for both Mystic Theurge and Arcane Heirophant (which are both 10 level PrCs which have nearly the same benefits). I'm still a little unsure about if I want to do that though because I had a few other ideas in mind, and I'm still not sure if I'd rather have druid spells over cleric spells. I know that I'm going to be fighting a lot of undead in the upcoming quest.
IMarvinTPA 10-03-06, 03:43 PM	Undead, True Necromancer is a 14 level class that is pretty much a full CL progression. You might want to look at it. You may have troubles with your party since you'll be rebuking and commanding undead and generally a less than good person. Alternatively, if everybody is Neutral or Evil, you'll be turning the enemy's forces against them. Some of the Dragon Deities are cool for their domains. IMarv
Johnny_Angel 10-03-06, 03:55 PM	Undead, True Necromancer is a 14 level class that is pretty much a full CL progression. You might want to look at it. You may have troubles with your party since you'll be rebuking and commanding undead and generally a less than good person. Alternatively, if everybody is Neutral or Evil, you'll be turning the enemy's forces against them. Some of the Dragon Deities are cool for their domains. IMarv Honestly, I had considered being a True Necromancer, but the end of the last quest was a TPK which allowed the BBEG -a Mindflayer Lich- to ascend to a god-like state which gave him the power to posess any undead at any time on any plane. I really did want to play a necromancer, but the idea that my own undead would suddenly turn into my enemy and kill me wasn't good. My second idea for a character was an Awakened Penguin Ninja, but the DM wouldn't allow it, lol. He further thwarted my Penguin PC concepts by saying that the BBEG killed all Penguins in this world. At any rate, my point is that I was looking into Cleric and Favored Soul mainly for positive energy magics which I could use to destroy undead as opposed to controlling them. Although, I did start a related topic in which I was discussing my plans (with this character) to use epic spells to create a race from skeletons. The would look like undead, but be alive. It's a way for my PC to mock the villain of the campaign, but it's also a way for my PC to (eventually; whenever I'm strong enough) to ascend to his own form of godhood. I'm starting to get off track though. I appreciate the suggestion, and it is something I considered, but(taking into the consideration the powers of the main villain of the campaign) it wouldn't work out for me.
texanhick20 10-04-06, 03:20 AM	...wont do what you want it to. the moment you gain access to 2nd level spells (including divine), you lose access to that free 2nd level wizard spell, thereby no longer qualifying for Mystic Theurge. It would work if you were going for cerbromancer, since psionic classes never gain spells, but not for any dual progression class that uses two different spellcasters. *looks at the feat* ( copied from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a ) Precocious Apprentice Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training. Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1 Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would. You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character I don't agree, this is an arcane feat, not a divine..when you become able to cast 2nd level spells I would say applies to when you become able to cast 2nd level arcane spells since you can't use arcane spell slots as divine spell slots. it specificly says you may use to prepare or spontaneously cast 2nd level or lower spells as you normally would. You normally wouldn't cast a divine spell as an arcane spell going sorcerer.
smrtgmp 10-04-06, 08:24 AM	I don't agree, this is an arcane feat, not a divine..when you become able to cast 2nd level spells I would say applies to when you become able to cast 2nd level arcane spells since you can't use arcane spell slots as divine spell slots. it specificly says you may use to prepare or spontaneously cast 2nd level or lower spells as you normally would. You normally wouldn't cast a divine spell as an arcane spell going sorcerer.And yet the feat doesnt specify anything about arcane spells. It says "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above." The designers have verified that they did this intentionally to prevent early access to MT. Disagree all you want; it wont change the RAW.
icnivad 10-04-06, 12:32 PM	And yet the feat doesnt specify anything about arcane spells. I agree with the texanhick's post. I think you have to read between the lines. The writers of the rules weren't thinking about multiclassed characters. They were thinking about a single class wizard that wanted a jump start on a second level spell. Think about it; what sense would it make if once you got second level divine sells, you gained a second level arcane slot but couldn't cast any spells with it? The rules are just guidelines. You have to think a little to play this game. The rules are designed to get you started in a universe with endless possabilities. If you want to play something with strict rules, go play a computer game.
mvincent 10-04-06, 02:18 PM	As a mystic theurge (with a lower CL and lots of lower level spells), you're probably better off focused on buffing than blasting. The extra spell slots provided by a sorcerer aren't really needed, and as a wizard you have more flexibility to select optimal, long duration buffing spells to prep for an adventure. Also, wizards are almost always better than sorcerers (assuming you're willing to spend some time on spell selection). However, if you prefer a character with less maintenance (and you like blasting), a sorcerer may still be a better option.
Analysis 10-04-06, 02:27 PM	I would say Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9/Arcane Hierophant 10. 22/22 caster level at level 25. Alternately, play something that gives you Trackless Step, like bamboo spirit folk. Then go Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 9/Arcane Hierophant 10. Caster level 22/22 and access to every spell except some bard spells... : )
FeceMan 10-04-06, 05:21 PM	See, this is where I am confused because everyone keeps saying that there is an alternate progression, but the text for the Mystical Theurge doesn't say that. When an odd-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. It sucks. I would say Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 9/Arcane Hierophant 10. 22/22 caster level at level 25. Alternately, play something that gives you Trackless Step, like bamboo spirit folk. Then go Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 9/Arcane Hierophant 10. Caster level 22/22 and access to every spell except some bard spells... : ) How does arcane hierophant progress spellcasting into epic levels (like the MT, or good)?
Jhaelen 10-04-06, 06:34 PM	The rules are just guidelines. You have to think a little to play this game.Ah, well. Should I really comment on this? Probably not, but I'll do it anyway: Actually, if you followed your own advice here, you'd realize that texanhick20's interpretation of the rules goes clearly against the intent of the feat. Common sense dictates that it doesn't work that way. The rules are designed to get you started in a universe with endless possabilities. If you want to play something with strict rules, go play a computer game.Ah, well. And if you want to play the monty-haul campaign of unending cheese, feel free to do so. It's not what most players enjoy (except for a short, hilarious one-shot session) but YMMV.
icnivad 10-04-06, 06:37 PM	another good one is the The Fuchlucan Lyrist, which requires 13 perform ranks, I believe, but has full BAB progression! so, I'm thinking Wiz 3, Archivist 3, Mystic Theurge 4, Fuchlucan Lyrist 10. would give you Wiz 17/Clr 17 spellcasting (which you can get up to effective 20/20 with two practised spell caster feats) You would also have a BAB of 15 at this point. I haven't seen any rules for Fuchlucan Lyrist, but I bet you could talk a DM into allowing it to progress into Epic the same way it progresses out of epic in regards to spells. (I shied away from the Precocious Apprentice trick because it feels a little too much like metagaming for use in a real game)
icnivad 10-04-06, 06:47 PM	Ah, well. Should I really comment on this? Probably not, but I'll do it anyway: Actually, if you followed your own advice here, you'd realize that texanhick20's interpretation of the rules goes clearly against the intent of the feat. Common sense dictates that it doesn't work that way. Ah, well. And if you want to play the monty-haul campaign of unending cheese, feel free to do so. It's not what most players enjoy (except for a short, hilarious one-shot session) but YMMV. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just saying that if I was a player, took a level in arcane, then this feat and then decided to take a bunch of levels in cleric, I'd be angry that my only second level arcane spell went away when I got my second level cleric spells and would expect any dm to allow me to keep my second level arcane spell. Now, on the other hand, if I was a DM, and someone tried doing this trick to get into Mystic Theurge at level 5, I would not allow it. I think it also comes down to playing style. I'm of the belief that a believable world that makes sense to the players not just in a because-the-rules-say-so way is more enjoyable for everyone. Allows for the players to get more immersed into the story. Please don't take this as an attack, just an explanation.
mvincent 10-04-06, 06:48 PM	The writers of the rules weren't thinking about multiclassed characters.smrtgmp specifically said: "The designers have verified that they did this intentionally to prevent early access to MT." Are you saying that he is lying, or that you did not read his post in its entirety?
icnivad 10-04-06, 06:51 PM	smrtgmp specifically said: "The designers have verified that they did this intentionally to prevent early access to MT." Are you saying that he is lying, or that you did not read his post in its entirety? actually, I missed that part. but as I just said, I'd never allow this skill to be used for access to MT, but would allow it for it's origional purpose, casting the second level spell.
FeceMan 10-04-06, 10:17 PM	another good one is the The Fuchlucan Lyrist, which requires 13 perform ranks, I believe, but has full BAB progression! so, I'm thinking Wiz 3, Archivist 3, Mystic Theurge 4, Fuchlucan Lyrist 10. would give you Wiz 17/Clr 17 spellcasting (which you can get up to effective 20/20 with two practised spell caster feats) You would also have a BAB of 15 at this point. I haven't seen any rules for Fuchlucan Lyrist, but I bet you could talk a DM into allowing it to progress into Epic the same way it progresses out of epic in regards to spells. (I shied away from the Precocious Apprentice trick because it feels a little too much like metagaming for use in a real game) If you somehow manage to make it into the Fochlucan Lyrist class with only those levels, I will tip my hat to you, sir. Until then, however, I would suggest reading up on the requirements of the Fochlucan Lyrist.
smrtgmp 10-05-06, 03:19 AM	Think about it; what sense would it make if once you got second level divine sells, you gained a second level arcane slot but couldn't cast any spells with it?Because they actually had game balance in mind when they designed the feat? (I know, I know, its a rarity) You have to think a little to play this game.:bored: Really? I never would have guessed.
texanhick20 10-05-06, 07:37 AM	Where is whis 'RAW' people are talking about? i hear about it all the time, but have no idea what it is or where to look for it.
smrtgmp 10-05-06, 07:48 AM	Rules As Written.
texanhick20 10-05-06, 07:54 AM	( copied from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a ) Precocious Apprentice Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training. Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1 Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would. You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks. Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character Then this was said And yet the feat doesnt specify anything about arcane spells. It says "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above." The designers have verified that they did this intentionally to prevent early access to MT. Disagree all you want; it wont change the RAW. Then This Rules As Written. You state that the designers have verified that they did "x" to intentionally prevent early access to Mystic Theurge, or basicly any other PrC that requires you to be able to cast second level spells. Where did they verify it? I'm just curious, cause the "Rules As Written" don't verify anything. Again it not making sence that gaining a third level in a divine casting class causeing the 1 second level /Arcane/ spell you know to vanish and you now having a single second level spell slot for casting purposes.
icnivad 10-05-06, 12:30 PM	If you somehow manage to make it into the Fochlucan Lyrist class with only those levels, I will tip my hat to you, sir. hmm.. yeah, I was operating off memory when I wrote that. After re-reading the section, I see your point. Scratch that idea.
Jhaelen 10-05-06, 04:55 PM	I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just saying that if I was a player, took a level in arcane, then this feat and then decided to take a bunch of levels in cleric, I'd be angry that my only second level arcane spell went away when I got my second level cleric spells and would expect any dm to allow me to keep my second level arcane spell. Now, on the other hand, if I was a DM, and someone tried doing this trick to get into Mystic Theurge at level 5, I would not allow it.Well, I consider it good style to ask my players why they want to take certain feats, class levels, etc. before the decision becomes binding. That way I can give them advice, point them to options I consider more advantageous or warn them about things that don't work the way they believe. I also allow the PHBII retraining option. Additionally, I introduced them to a major psionic npc, who is able and willing to use the 'psychic reformation' power to let them change their skill, feat, and power/spell selection if they find out they are unhappy with earlier choices. I am very lenient with players unless they're trying to get the better of me. I think it also comes down to playing style. I'm of the belief that a believable world that makes sense to the players not just in a because-the-rules-say-so way is more enjoyable for everyone. Allows for the players to get more immersed into the story.Well, maybe so. Several of the players in my gaming group are playing D&D since 1st edition, and we had lots and lots of house-rules in the past because basically you just HAD to have these to make the game balanced and playable. It's a bit different in 3rd edition. There are so many previous grey areas that are now covered by rules that we didn't feel much need for house-rules so far. I consider it a welcome change. Please don't take this as an attack, just an explanation.:cool: Thanks for explaining yourself. It's often difficult to judge the reason for certain statements. My posts are no exception there. I sometimes overreact a bit, as well - as I may have in your case :)
smrtgmp 10-05-06, 07:24 PM	Where did they verify it? I'm just curious, cause the "Rules As Written" don't verify anything.Its been discussed in-depth on the CO boards. Quotes from emails with the designers were provided. And really, the feat itself is quite explicit. It says "when you gain 2nd level spells..." When you reach cleric 3, you gain 2nd level spells, which meats the above qualifier. I agree it seems counterintuitive. When I first saw the feat I thought the same thing you did. And again, there are several other dual progression classes that can take advantage of PA, but anything that advances 2 spellcasting classes wont work. That still leaves cerebromancer (xph) and animus mage (ToM), among others.