Clerical Spell List and Starting Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clerical Spell List and Starting Spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nester Vagabond
12-09-06, 02:53 PM I may be misinterpreting the PHB here, but do Clerics have access to ALL spells listed for a given level, just waiting to be prayed for and granted by some merciful deity? Or, is it more of an old-school Arcane caster-type list of predetermined spells?

With the combination of the PHB and the SpC, this provides Divine casters with a daunting list to select from.

What have some of you DMs used in your campaigns?

~Nester~
Thomas_Covenant
12-09-06, 03:06 PM You've now realized one of the many reasons divine casters are so powerful...

Many DM's have some sort of house rule restricting to PHB to start, but there's no actual consensus.

From a strictly RAW argument, if you unconditionally approve the SpC, a Cleric/Druid has access to all of them.

PHB only to start, others added per DM approval is common, I think.
Seeker95
12-09-06, 03:38 PM Many DM's have some sort of house rule restricting to PHB to start, but there's no actual consensus.That's not a houserule. That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. That some DMs allow entire books is fine, but allowing anything beyond the PHB is a house rule.

As for my game, I allow any spellcasting class to research spells from outside the PHB within certain restrictions. For clerics, this restriction is that the cleric can only research new spells within the deity's domain. This does not mean it must be "on a domain list". Rather, it means the spell must fall within the domain flavor concept.
DarkRhystar
12-09-06, 03:51 PM What have some of you DMs used in your campaigns?

Unless an individual spell has proved to be unbalanced, Divine spellcasters gain access to all spells from all sources in my games.

No matter how many spells they have to choose from, they're still limited by how many they can take and the more spells you have to choose from the harder it becomes to choose. :)
Thomas_Covenant
12-09-06, 05:38 PM That's not a houserule. That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. That some DMs allow entire books is fine, but allowing anything beyond the PHB is a house rule.My implication was a more specific, yet common occurrence.

Many DM's allow a set of books in addition to CORE, and then specify PHB only spells, and restrict outside spells to be approved by DM individually.

When a DM says "CORE + Completes" as the rules for his campaign, restricting a Cleric from spells in the Complete Divine is a house rule, but a very common one.From a strictly RAW argument, if you unconditionally approve the SpC, a Cleric/Druid has access to all of them.Which my next sentence could be taken to imply, now that I noticed....
Dheran
12-09-06, 06:58 PM That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. This is a very strange view of the actual situation. WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4). ALL rules (not just books) are on a DM-permission basis only. The content in the 3 core books isn't any less dependent on DM permission, nor is content in later books any more dependent on DM permission.

I've had fun playing in games where the DM fully defined the world. He created the lands and inhabitants. All campaign setting books were verboten, as were all the monsters (immediately excluding the core Monster Manual). All races except humans were also excluded, so most of the Races chapter in the Player's Handbook was out. But all the rules, skills, and spells from all the WotC D&D books were perfectly fine. This was a great campaign, and perfectly within "the rules".
Ephraim
12-09-06, 08:42 PM This is a very strange view of the actual situation. WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4).

Hear, hear! Altogether too often, I hear of DM's complaining that their players are trying to undermine their authority by insisting, "It's in the core rulebooks, so that's the way it is!"
Seeker95
12-09-06, 11:40 PM How does this:
That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only.
Contradict this:WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4). ALL rules (not just books) are on a DM-permission basis only.Your opening sentence ignores the context in which my statement was offered. Thomas Covenant indicated that as a houserule, some DMs limit what supplements are allowed. I simply pointed out that limiting the inclusion of a supplement is not a houserule. Including supplements is on a DM-permission basis in the first place.

Whether the DM does so in whole or in part is still up to the DM, but supplement inclusion is not assumed nor approved by default.

Excluding aspects of the core rules is also equally within the DM's prerogative, but is considered a houserule when it is done, because a player *can* reasonably expect that if it is in the core rules, it is acceptable unless otherwise stated. If a DM is going to disallow core rules, it is a good idea to state this up front and explicitly. Because players generally assume that the core rules are allowed.

This does not contradict your statement that all the rules are subject to DM approval. I only noted that the exclusion of supplements is not a houserule - it is the default. The exclusion of core rules is not unheard of, but is a houserule when a DM does so.
Dheran
12-10-06, 08:18 AM That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only.
All books, including the core three, are on a DM-permission basis. Just because you're accustomed to allowing all the content in the Monster Manual doesn't mean that's a requirement; it most certainly is not. Your expectations are not "the rules" but rather your accustomed house rules. Please don't state them as such, as they're both incorrect and misleading.
Seeker95
12-10-06, 09:38 AM All books, including the core three, are on a DM-permission basis.I already covered this.

The core rules are not the same as supplements.
For supplements, a player should assume a rule is out until the DM says it is in.
For the core rules, a player should assume the rule is in until the DM says it is out.
Nester Vagabond
12-10-06, 03:47 PM Well... You guys seem to have, rather adroitly, answered my question.

As to the the Core books... Yes. As usual, EVERYTHING is DM discretion, though players may "reasonably" expect anything in the core books to be acceptable.

This is barring any unusual DM predelictions, however.

Thanks for providing that bit of insight on divine casters for me. I appreciate it.

~Nester~
Damionte
12-11-06, 07:17 PM Though not restricted by our DM or game group, I personally restrict myself to PHB spells in general until the character experiences the spell first hand, or makes a spellcraft/Knowledge Religion/Arcana check DC10+ Spell lvl to know the spell the first time I try to prepare it. Once he's experienced the spell or made the Knowledge check once, the spell is availuable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nester Vagabond 12-09-06, 02:53 PM	I may be misinterpreting the PHB here, but do Clerics have access to ALL spells listed for a given level, just waiting to be prayed for and granted by some merciful deity? Or, is it more of an old-school Arcane caster-type list of predetermined spells? With the combination of the PHB and the SpC, this provides Divine casters with a daunting list to select from. What have some of you DMs used in your campaigns? ~Nester~
Thomas_Covenant 12-09-06, 03:06 PM	You've now realized one of the many reasons divine casters are so powerful... Many DM's have some sort of house rule restricting to PHB to start, but there's no actual consensus. From a strictly RAW argument, if you unconditionally approve the SpC, a Cleric/Druid has access to all of them. PHB only to start, others added per DM approval is common, I think.
Seeker95 12-09-06, 03:38 PM	Many DM's have some sort of house rule restricting to PHB to start, but there's no actual consensus.That's not a houserule. That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. That some DMs allow entire books is fine, but allowing anything beyond the PHB is a house rule. As for my game, I allow any spellcasting class to research spells from outside the PHB within certain restrictions. For clerics, this restriction is that the cleric can only research new spells within the deity's domain. This does not mean it must be "on a domain list". Rather, it means the spell must fall within the domain flavor concept.
DarkRhystar 12-09-06, 03:51 PM	What have some of you DMs used in your campaigns? Unless an individual spell has proved to be unbalanced, Divine spellcasters gain access to all spells from all sources in my games. No matter how many spells they have to choose from, they're still limited by how many they can take and the more spells you have to choose from the harder it becomes to choose. :)
Thomas_Covenant 12-09-06, 05:38 PM	That's not a houserule. That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. That some DMs allow entire books is fine, but allowing anything beyond the PHB is a house rule.My implication was a more specific, yet common occurrence. Many DM's allow a set of books in addition to CORE, and then specify PHB only spells, and restrict outside spells to be approved by DM individually. When a DM says "CORE + Completes" as the rules for his campaign, restricting a Cleric from spells in the Complete Divine is a house rule, but a very common one.From a strictly RAW argument, if you unconditionally approve the SpC, a Cleric/Druid has access to all of them.Which my next sentence could be taken to imply, now that I noticed....
Dheran 12-09-06, 06:58 PM	That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. This is a very strange view of the actual situation. WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4). ALL rules (not just books) are on a DM-permission basis only. The content in the 3 core books isn't any less dependent on DM permission, nor is content in later books any more dependent on DM permission. I've had fun playing in games where the DM fully defined the world. He created the lands and inhabitants. All campaign setting books were verboten, as were all the monsters (immediately excluding the core Monster Manual). All races except humans were also excluded, so most of the Races chapter in the Player's Handbook was out. But all the rules, skills, and spells from all the WotC D&D books were perfectly fine. This was a great campaign, and perfectly within "the rules".
Ephraim 12-09-06, 08:42 PM	This is a very strange view of the actual situation. WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4). Hear, hear! Altogether too often, I hear of DM's complaining that their players are trying to undermine their authority by insisting, "It's in the core rulebooks, so that's the way it is!"
Seeker95 12-09-06, 11:40 PM	How does this: That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. Contradict this:WotC defines the 3 original D&D books as the core rules. But the most significant core rule is "The DM defines the game." (DMG, page 4). ALL rules (not just books) are on a DM-permission basis only.Your opening sentence ignores the context in which my statement was offered. Thomas Covenant indicated that as a houserule, some DMs limit what supplements are allowed. I simply pointed out that limiting the inclusion of a supplement is not a houserule. Including supplements is on a DM-permission basis in the first place. Whether the DM does so in whole or in part is still up to the DM, but supplement inclusion is not assumed nor approved by default. Excluding aspects of the core rules is also equally within the DM's prerogative, but is considered a houserule when it is done, because a player can reasonably expect that if it is in the core rules, it is acceptable unless otherwise stated. If a DM is going to disallow core rules, it is a good idea to state this up front and explicitly. Because players generally assume that the core rules are allowed. This does not contradict your statement that all the rules are subject to DM approval. I only noted that the exclusion of supplements is not a houserule - it is the default. The exclusion of core rules is not unheard of, but is a houserule when a DM does so.
Dheran 12-10-06, 08:18 AM	That is "the rules". ALL books other than the core three are on a DM-permission basis only. All books, including the core three, are on a DM-permission basis. Just because you're accustomed to allowing all the content in the Monster Manual doesn't mean that's a requirement; it most certainly is not. Your expectations are not "the rules" but rather your accustomed house rules. Please don't state them as such, as they're both incorrect and misleading.
Seeker95 12-10-06, 09:38 AM	All books, including the core three, are on a DM-permission basis.I already covered this. The core rules are not the same as supplements. For supplements, a player should assume a rule is out until the DM says it is in. For the core rules, a player should assume the rule is in until the DM says it is out.
Nester Vagabond 12-10-06, 03:47 PM	Well... You guys seem to have, rather adroitly, answered my question. As to the the Core books... Yes. As usual, EVERYTHING is DM discretion, though players may "reasonably" expect anything in the core books to be acceptable. This is barring any unusual DM predelictions, however. Thanks for providing that bit of insight on divine casters for me. I appreciate it. ~Nester~
Damionte 12-11-06, 07:17 PM	Though not restricted by our DM or game group, I personally restrict myself to PHB spells in general until the character experiences the spell first hand, or makes a spellcraft/Knowledge Religion/Arcana check DC10+ Spell lvl to know the spell the first time I try to prepare it. Once he's experienced the spell or made the Knowledge check once, the spell is availuable.