Clerics and spells they can cast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clerics and spells they can cast [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dawnfire
09-17-05, 11:49 PM I was reading where a cleric can cast any spell from the cleric spell list as long as they are able to cast the lvl of the spell. That alignment differances could cause negitive effects. My question is this. Can a LG cleric cast Harm, especially if they are using it against an evil monster? And if there are negitive effects, what are they? Any help to solve this argument would be great!!! Thanks
runestar
09-18-05, 12:07 AM I wasn't aware of any drawbacks of say, a good cleric casting an evil spell. If the god could grant the cleric the spell when he prayed for it to start with, then casting it should be fair game.
Inigo Carmine
09-18-05, 12:09 AM There is nothing more inherently evil about the harm spell than there is about the fieball spell. Clerics are only limited in the aligned spells they can cast.

From the SRD
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

So a lawful good cleric cannot cast the Desecrate spell (look up the spell, it has the [Evil] descriptor) or the Chaos Hammer spell (a [Chaotic] Spell). He has no restrictions against casting Harm (a non-aligned spell), although being good he is prevented from spontaneously casting it. If he prepares it as normal, he's good to go.
Dawnfire
09-18-05, 12:28 AM Thank you for the fast reply and solving the issue for me. Many thanks!
Gilean
09-18-05, 07:42 AM Sadly, there are no limits. Clerics of gods of healing can go all day harming, inflicting wounds and poisoning people by powers granted by the god. In same manner, Nerullian clerics can go all day long healing, restoring and curing people. Not good.
Seeker95
09-18-05, 01:39 PM Sadly, there are no limits.Not sure why you say "sadly" in this.

There is one major limit. If the cleric of Nerull wants to keep getting spells from Nerull, that cleric better have a really good reason for spending the whole day curing. Unless the cleric is travelling with an assassin and keeping the assassin alive so the assassin can keep killing in the name of all that is Death, it's going to be pretty hard to explain the constant curing.

And if the cleric of a healing god wants to keep getting spells from that deity, s/he better have a *really* good reason for harming and inflicting all day. A god of healing isn't likely to look too kindly upon his Reverend Medic who pulls more Dr. Kevorkian than Dr. Wiley with the population.

There is a *major* restriction on clerics, but it requires that the DM actually roleplay the deity. The cleric is an extension of the deity. ALL of the cleric's powers come from that deity. So if the cleric isn't explaining his or her choices in relation to the deity, said cleric is likely to find him or herself without a deity, and, consequently, without spells.
Salla
09-18-05, 01:45 PM There is a *major* restriction on clerics, but it requires that the DM actually roleplay the deity. The cleric is an extension of the deity. ALL of the cleric's powers come from that deity. So if the cleric isn't explaining his or her choices in relation to the deity, said cleric is likely to find him or herself without a deity, and, consequently, without spells.

Assuming the cleric isn't a Cleric of an Ideal (or in Eberron), of course, there the presence or absence of a diety is irrelevant. If you're playing your character correctly, the DM should never have to invoke the Divine Screw salient ability on you.
Seeker95
09-18-05, 01:50 PM If you're playing your character correctly, the DM should never have to invoke the Divine Screw salient ability on you.And if you are NOT playing your CLERIC correctly, the DM should. My experience is that fewer DMs over-invoke than under-invoke.

In my game this is much easier anyway. There are no godless clerics. Want to live for an ideal? Be something besides a cleric. Or find a deity that promotes the ideal you espouse.
Salla
09-18-05, 11:06 PM And if you are NOT playing your CLERIC correctly, the DM should. My experience is that fewer DMs over-invoke than under-invoke.

In my game this is much easier anyway. There are no godless clerics. Want to live for an ideal? Be something besides a cleric. Or find a deity that promotes the ideal you espouse.

in my game, it's even easier. Even the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals. :)
Seeker95
09-19-05, 01:47 PM in my game, it's even easier. Even the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals. :)My game is the other way around. The godless clerics in the world are actually worshipping the only entity in the multi-verse who doesn't care if It is called by name: Entropy.

I don't allow PCs to worship an "ideal". :P
Schmendrick
09-19-05, 02:42 PM My game is the other way around. The godless clerics in the world are actually worshipping the only entity in the multi-verse who doesn't care if It is called by name: Entropy.

I don't allow PCs to worship an "ideal". :P
Why not? Anybody can worship an ideal if they want to.

Getting spells from that "ideal", of course, is a different story.
SamiPeikko
09-20-05, 07:36 AM I am playing two cleric characters in different campaigns at the moment, and I am enjoying immensely one of the clerics having diety description clearly state the ideals of the patron good and things he stands against.

In practice this ment I had to go through Cleric spell list, and remove everything opposed to his teachings, but after that I have easily defined strong basis for other moral questions and debates rising from the dietys aligment.
I would actually like diety descriptions to have list of banned spells (maybe in some kind of generalized groups, as more and more spells are being created), and recomended- and recomended against- lists of spells.

For the other cleric I can not see such clear guidelines, because a) she is chaotic and b) she enjoys pranks, actually using her nemesis's trics against her. For her there could hardly be any banned spells (exept regarding to aligment), but some favored and some only reserved for special enemies.
Seeker95
09-20-05, 08:46 AM For the other cleric I can not see such clear guidelines, because a) she is chaotic and b) she enjoys pranks, [...] For her there could hardly be any banned spells (exept regarding to aligment), but some favored and some only reserved for special enemies.I would offer that there would be no non-alignment banned spells, as you have noted. However, I believe the deity would beocme displeased if the cleric began using the same spells in the same crcumstances. That would be a little too orderly and systematic.

Rather than ban specific spells (self-banned, of course), consider requiring that the cleric must consistently (an ironic word for a Chaotic character) devise new and creative ways to use her spells.
Zeful
09-20-05, 11:20 AM umm... guys the book says that cleric don't need deities but it doesn't say were the power comes from. it dose say that Pg 31 of the PHB
If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities so theoreticly non-worshiper clerics meditate to gain spells granted by the multiverse or something similar

about the topic: clerics connect to the vast enormity of their deity so they might get a stern taking to from their deity about why they keep going agast the faith and might be told that he can't cast any of those spells again period. so clerics have restrictions about their castings.
Zherog
09-20-05, 12:09 PM Everybody's aware of that, Zeful. That's why Seeker said:

In my game ... [t]here are no godless clerics.

And why Salla said:

in my game, ... [e]ven the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals.

They were talking about houserules, and clearly identifying them as such.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dawnfire 09-17-05, 11:49 PM	I was reading where a cleric can cast any spell from the cleric spell list as long as they are able to cast the lvl of the spell. That alignment differances could cause negitive effects. My question is this. Can a LG cleric cast Harm, especially if they are using it against an evil monster? And if there are negitive effects, what are they? Any help to solve this argument would be great!!! Thanks
runestar 09-18-05, 12:07 AM	I wasn't aware of any drawbacks of say, a good cleric casting an evil spell. If the god could grant the cleric the spell when he prayed for it to start with, then casting it should be fair game.
Inigo Carmine 09-18-05, 12:09 AM	There is nothing more inherently evil about the harm spell than there is about the fieball spell. Clerics are only limited in the aligned spells they can cast. From the SRD Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. So a lawful good cleric cannot cast the Desecrate spell (look up the spell, it has the [Evil] descriptor) or the Chaos Hammer spell (a [Chaotic] Spell). He has no restrictions against casting Harm (a non-aligned spell), although being good he is prevented from spontaneously casting it. If he prepares it as normal, he's good to go.
Dawnfire 09-18-05, 12:28 AM	Thank you for the fast reply and solving the issue for me. Many thanks!
Gilean 09-18-05, 07:42 AM	Sadly, there are no limits. Clerics of gods of healing can go all day harming, inflicting wounds and poisoning people by powers granted by the god. In same manner, Nerullian clerics can go all day long healing, restoring and curing people. Not good.
Seeker95 09-18-05, 01:39 PM	Sadly, there are no limits.Not sure why you say "sadly" in this. There is one major limit. If the cleric of Nerull wants to keep getting spells from Nerull, that cleric better have a really good reason for spending the whole day curing. Unless the cleric is travelling with an assassin and keeping the assassin alive so the assassin can keep killing in the name of all that is Death, it's going to be pretty hard to explain the constant curing. And if the cleric of a healing god wants to keep getting spells from that deity, s/he better have a really good reason for harming and inflicting all day. A god of healing isn't likely to look too kindly upon his Reverend Medic who pulls more Dr. Kevorkian than Dr. Wiley with the population. There is a major restriction on clerics, but it requires that the DM actually roleplay the deity. The cleric is an extension of the deity. ALL of the cleric's powers come from that deity. So if the cleric isn't explaining his or her choices in relation to the deity, said cleric is likely to find him or herself without a deity, and, consequently, without spells.
Salla 09-18-05, 01:45 PM	There is a major restriction on clerics, but it requires that the DM actually roleplay the deity. The cleric is an extension of the deity. ALL of the cleric's powers come from that deity. So if the cleric isn't explaining his or her choices in relation to the deity, said cleric is likely to find him or herself without a deity, and, consequently, without spells. Assuming the cleric isn't a Cleric of an Ideal (or in Eberron), of course, there the presence or absence of a diety is irrelevant. If you're playing your character correctly, the DM should never have to invoke the Divine Screw salient ability on you.
Seeker95 09-18-05, 01:50 PM	If you're playing your character correctly, the DM should never have to invoke the Divine Screw salient ability on you.And if you are NOT playing your CLERIC correctly, the DM should. My experience is that fewer DMs over-invoke than under-invoke. In my game this is much easier anyway. There are no godless clerics. Want to live for an ideal? Be something besides a cleric. Or find a deity that promotes the ideal you espouse.
Salla 09-18-05, 11:06 PM	And if you are NOT playing your CLERIC correctly, the DM should. My experience is that fewer DMs over-invoke than under-invoke. In my game this is much easier anyway. There are no godless clerics. Want to live for an ideal? Be something besides a cleric. Or find a deity that promotes the ideal you espouse. in my game, it's even easier. Even the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals. :)
Seeker95 09-19-05, 01:47 PM	in my game, it's even easier. Even the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals. :)My game is the other way around. The godless clerics in the world are actually worshipping the only entity in the multi-verse who doesn't care if It is called by name: Entropy. I don't allow PCs to worship an "ideal". :P
Schmendrick 09-19-05, 02:42 PM	My game is the other way around. The godless clerics in the world are actually worshipping the only entity in the multi-verse who doesn't care if It is called by name: Entropy. I don't allow PCs to worship an "ideal". :P Why not? Anybody can worship an ideal if they want to. Getting spells from that "ideal", of course, is a different story.
SamiPeikko 09-20-05, 07:36 AM	I am playing two cleric characters in different campaigns at the moment, and I am enjoying immensely one of the clerics having diety description clearly state the ideals of the patron good and things he stands against. In practice this ment I had to go through Cleric spell list, and remove everything opposed to his teachings, but after that I have easily defined strong basis for other moral questions and debates rising from the dietys aligment. I would actually like diety descriptions to have list of banned spells (maybe in some kind of generalized groups, as more and more spells are being created), and recomended- and recomended against- lists of spells. For the other cleric I can not see such clear guidelines, because a) she is chaotic and b) she enjoys pranks, actually using her nemesis's trics against her. For her there could hardly be any banned spells (exept regarding to aligment), but some favored and some only reserved for special enemies.
Seeker95 09-20-05, 08:46 AM	For the other cleric I can not see such clear guidelines, because a) she is chaotic and b) she enjoys pranks, [...] For her there could hardly be any banned spells (exept regarding to aligment), but some favored and some only reserved for special enemies.I would offer that there would be no non-alignment banned spells, as you have noted. However, I believe the deity would beocme displeased if the cleric began using the same spells in the same crcumstances. That would be a little too orderly and systematic. Rather than ban specific spells (self-banned, of course), consider requiring that the cleric must consistently (an ironic word for a Chaotic character) devise new and creative ways to use her spells.
Zeful 09-20-05, 11:20 AM	umm... guys the book says that cleric don't need deities but it doesn't say were the power comes from. it dose say that Pg 31 of the PHB If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities so theoreticly non-worshiper clerics meditate to gain spells granted by the multiverse or something similar about the topic: clerics connect to the vast enormity of their deity so they might get a stern taking to from their deity about why they keep going agast the faith and might be told that he can't cast any of those spells again period. so clerics have restrictions about their castings.
Zherog 09-20-05, 12:09 PM	Everybody's aware of that, Zeful. That's why Seeker said: In my game ... [t]here are no godless clerics. And why Salla said: in my game, ... [e]ven the clerics who think they worship a god are domain clerics, because there are no gods; just anthropmorphizations of ideals. They were talking about houserules, and clearly identifying them as such.