Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 07-20-04, 06:15 AM	I play an elf sorcerer in a game where my friend plays a lawful good cleric. We are now at level 6 and it looks like the cleric is a better spellcaster than the sorcerer! F.ex. cleric gets bestow curse as a 3rd level spell, sorcerers/wizards have it as a 4th level spell . Cleric gets Destruction at character level 13, whereas the sor/wiz spell Finger of death, I get at character level 14 as I am a sorcerer. And for kicks, let's pretend that I am a wizard... Ok, I would get Finger of death at level 13 as well, but here is the point; The cleric's death spell (Destruction) is much better! It deals 10d6 damage on a succesful save whereas Finger of death deals only 3d6 when the opponent makes his save. I am starting to wonder what is the point of choosing a character that has worse spells, can't wear armor, has worse saves and who cannot choose his spells daily from a large list like a cleric can. So what is the point of being a sorcerer when a cleric seems to be so much better in melee, saves and spellcasting? (to recap the cleric has more powerful spells, larger spell list and can cast spells at least one character level earlier than the sorcerer) I hope that my conclusion is wrong, please show me how the sorcerer can outperform the cleric in terms of spellcasting... -John
JMark 07-20-04, 08:56 AM	Not many clerics can cast fireball, lightning bolt, chain lightning, dimension door, teleport, horrid wilting, meteor swarm, time stop … do I have to continue listing (arcane) spells that are not also on the cleric spell list? However if you intend to only cast spells from the cleric's spell list even tough you are playing a sorcerer, you might have to reconsider your choice of character/class.
ajmastrean 07-20-04, 10:03 AM	From my experience, the cleric is primarily a buff/heal caster (considering there is a tank and another caster in the group). The sorceror gets better attack magic and stuff like fly, teleport, etc. Also, there is a tradeoff, where the cleric gets certain spells earlier, the sorceror gets them with a higher DC, albeit at a later level.
BlackSmith 07-20-04, 10:35 AM	Originally posted by johniemi The cleric's death spell (Destruction) is much better! It deals 10d6 damage on a succesful save whereas Finger of death deals only 3d6 when the opponent makes his save. fireball does 5d6 on a succesfull save. on a area. Metero swarm does 32d6 damage without save (if you hit 4x times with the speheres).
Seeker95 07-20-04, 11:21 AM	Maybe the player is better at selecting spells than you are? Clerics are better at what clerics do. Sorcerers are better at what sorcerers do. If you want the features of a cleric instead of a sorcerer, go for it. Choosing to play a sorcerer is something that should be done because you want to. It is not the most powerful character. But it may be the perfect character for the role(s) you want to play in the game. It is definitely not the right character for someone who is likely to suffer from spell-selection-list-size envy.
johniemi 07-20-04, 01:41 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Maybe the player is better at selecting spells than you are? That's one of the points I made... I mean, clerics can choose their spells from a pretty large list and he only has to spend one hour meditating to get the spells he wants for the day. When I am limited to f.ex. one 3rd level spell at character level 6, the cleric can choose spell(s) from the whole 3rd level spell list. That's not fair :D Anyway, you all brought up good points and made me look my character differently. Thanks for the answers and I hope my sorcerer's magic can match the cleric's magic abilities as a few more levels go by. -John
Sisyfos 07-20-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by johniemi I hope that my conclusion is wrong, please show me how the sorcerer can outperform the cleric in terms of spellcasting... Clerics are indeed better casters (among else). WoTC has buffed the clerics so much from the old 2e days that a group made from clerics only is actually among the most powerful group combos that could be in 3e. Anyhow a smart sorc can hold his own and surpass a mediocre cleric and there are a lot of those mediocre clerics who do alright but do not know how to unleash the power of the class. Spell selection, as was suggested, is crucial for those sorcs as are PrCs. You can get a lot of help with the spell selection by looking at the page pointed by the "Sorc_spells" link in my signature. PrC selection is even harder as I do not really know what your preferences are. If you have the book of exalted deeds and you'd like to play an exalted sorc there is some nice stuff there. Tome and blood has some OK sorc prcs also for versatily, better skills et cetera. If domains add to sorc spells known in your campaign, then defenders of the faith has the divine oracle and sacred exorcist prcs which would help you a lot.
Seeker95 07-20-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Sisyfos Clerics are indeed better casters (among else). WoTC has buffed the clerics so much from the old 2e days that a group made from clerics only is actually among the most powerful group combos that could be in 3e.Assuming that you can get four or more people in a player group to actually agree to play clerics! In 25 years of gaming, it has consistently been my experience that you have to beg and plead to get even one person to agree to be the party cleric. Every class has its advantages. Some advantages are purely mechanics-based (ie. the cleric). Others seem heavily flavor-based (ie. the sorcerer) whereas most are somewhere in between. Be thankful I was not a 3e creator. We would have only four classes, and everything else would be a combination of Feat, Skill, and Flavor choices. :D
Tony Vargas 07-20-04, 05:39 PM	Originally posted by johniemi F.ex. cleric gets bestow curse as a 3rd level spell, sorcerers/wizards have it as a 4th level spell . Why would you want to cast Bestow Curse - it's not that great a spell compared to 3rd level arcane spells, let alone 4th level ones. Cleric gets Destruction at character level 13 You guys are 6th, though, so that shouldn't be a problem right now... I am starting to wonder what is the point of choosing a character that has worse spells, can't wear armor, has worse saves and who cannot choose his spells daily from a large list like a cleric can. The Wiz/Sorc spell list is much more varied, and has more potent attack and more interesting utility spells, so it's really /better/ spells. You also cast spontaneously, which is a big plus, even with relatively few known spells. Some advice: When picking spells known, note is a spell you're considering is available to the Cleric - if it is, don't take it. If the party needs that spell, they can talk to him. Pick spells that you're going to want to cast repeatedly - because, most likely, you will be. Keep in mind that if you have a couple of reliable standbys like Magic Missle, you can go for more interesting spells that might not come up all the time, but which may need repeated casting when they do come up (week before last our sorcerer cast all her 2nd level spells as Shatter - freakishly, half the monsters that sesssion were constructs vulnerable to it). Get some metamagic. This increases your flexibility, allowing you to put beefed up lower level spells in higher level slots, which gives you the option of taking more interesting higher level spells and using boosted lower-level ones for straightforward things (don't learn lightning bolt, just empower a Magic Missle).
Sancus 07-20-04, 05:43 PM	Assuming that you can get four or more people in a player group to actually agree to play clerics! Well this is often because of the extreme distastefulness of the various D&D Pantheons and being subject to the doctrine of a particular God. This is the main reason I prefer arcane casters, as you have a greater sense of 'freedom' with what you can do with your magic. However, if you allow the core concept of 'clerics without a god' that just have faith in a particular concept, then this is not considerable. Not that that classes should be balanced with roleplaying, but, just saying, I bet bloody annoying gods is the main reason a lot of people don't like playing clerics.
Stuntman 07-20-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Assuming that you can get four or more people in a player group to actually agree to play clerics! In 25 years of gaming, it has consistently been my experience that you have to beg and plead to get even one person to agree to be the party cleric. This has been my experience as well. Personally, I do think that the cleric is a very powerful class. However, I still would not play one.
smrtgmp 07-20-04, 07:43 PM	I've gotta agree. I've played a few clerics (and enjoyed it, to an extent), but they are still one of my least favorite classes. Even if you have the capability to cast some wicked battle spells, you often have to use those slots to spontaneously cast cures. If all you do in a fight is run around healing the party, it doesnt really matter what spells you could have cast.
Deoxy 07-20-04, 09:29 PM	As Sisyfos said, a party of all clerics will outperform all other parties most of the time - occasionally, there are certain spells that just have to be had that aren't on the list (of course, once you get Miracle, that pretty much goes away - and without the XP cost, too, which is just ridiculous), or a trap-intense mission. The only major exception I know of is stealth, where they generally aren't as good (though you can make cleric builds that are OK at stealth). Clerics have been boosted and boosted and boosted until they reached this level... because in a mixed party, even with all that power, they still often suck. Why? Because they end of walking band-aids! That's why they keep boosting them - they still end up blowing all that boosted power on healing, so people STILL don't want to play them (that and the terrible "walking hp battery" experiences from previous editions are still with them). If you can just get 2 clerics in the party, even, instead of 1, it's suddenly much more fun for both (and the overpoweredness starts really shining through).
primemover003 07-20-04, 10:25 PM	A cleric is really only a walking band-aid for about 4 levels. Once you hit fifth you can either make or afford wands. Rangers, Paladins, Druids, Bards, & the Cleric can use a Wand of CLW... Past that, if you still need to be a band aid you're party is in deep doo-doo. Clerics are the best mechanical class for exactly the reasons mentioned above. They are my favorite class. They are not overly restricted by a central organization unless the DM mandates it... but then again you could just belong to a chaotic church and get around the system:) Your choices of Deities is vast. I'm sure there is a concept that fits nearly everyones tastes. Even the Core world has a TON of gods to choose from. Don't give me the excuse there is no deity out there that is even remotely close to your character concept.
Seeker95 07-21-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by primemover003 Clerics are the best mechanical class. They are my favorite class.I suspect (and hope) these two statements are independent of each other. The former is undeniable by most. Clerics are the true bard--> jack of all trades and master of one. They can fight, defend, take damage, cause magical damage, and heal. The latter is a rarity. You are only the second person I have ever met whose favorite class is cleric. I know there must be others, but the number of players who prefer cleric is definitely among the minority.
ajmastrean 07-21-04, 12:50 PM	The cleric is my favorite class too. I like the jack-of-all-trades aspect, I enjoy being able to fill any niche the party needs in a particular situation. The game is a lot more fun for me if I can use my abilities in all situations (combat, diplomacy, dungeoneering, etc). I am not saying other classes are incapable of doing so, it is just that I enjoy doing it with a cleric (*wink wink, i know what some of you are thinking). The concept is also something that I have had a good time with. They are not as restricted as Paladins, but they still have a moral code. Something to stand by and stand for. I think they are good leaders for that reason. And finally....Seeker95, what reasons have you seen for people not wanting to play clerics? Why do you think cleric is favored by a minority? (not arguing, just curious).
Darth K'Trava 07-21-04, 01:34 PM	I like playing clerics. They can be pretty kick butt, especially at higher levels. My favorite character was a 29th level cleric/4th level divine champion. Not your typical cleric. Sure she did her share of healing the group.... but her main focus was on kicking ass! And taking names! :devil: That was her firstmost priority: removing evil. By that level she did have alot of spells to spare for "blowing stuff up" and still heal people. Not to mention try to whack undead with either a turning attempt or a Heal spell.... We usually have someone play a cleric. It's not so bad as some have made it.
Seeker95 07-21-04, 02:00 PM	Originally posted by ajmastrean And finally....Seeker95, what reasons have you seen for people not wanting to play clerics? Why do you think cleric is favored by a minority? (not arguing, just curious). I have heard different reasons over the years, and even more on these boards. I don't want to have to worship a deity in my fantasy game. I don't want to be the MASH unit. These two tend to cover the various flavors of reason. I think also that the other classes just fit fantasy stereotypes better. The consummate fighter, wizard or rogue are archetypes in and of themselves. The cleric is not as well represented in fantasy literature, although certain decidedly fantastic examples come to mind (the Deryni series for example). When I say cleric fans are in the minority, I am speaking from experience. *I* prefer clerics, and have played them on and off since I started playing in 1978. I usually alternate between a cleric and a dwarven fighter. But when I say I want to play a cleric, everyone else in the groups I've played in breathes a sigh of relief. Nobody else wanted to. I suspect the stereotype of cleric-is-healer is the biggest reason though. Followed closely by the appeal of other fantasy archetypes attracting player attention.
meabolex 07-21-04, 02:28 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 But when I say I want to play a cleric, everyone else in the groups I've played in breathes a sigh of relief. That's just the opposite attitude I get from other players when I play a cleric. I get the "OH NO NOT AGAIN!" attitude. :smirk:
Talanall 07-21-04, 02:43 PM	I like to play clerics, myself. There are a lot of really cool roleplaying opportunities tied up in the class, if one is prepared to sit down for a little while and think about the beliefs espoused by a cleric of a particular deity, and about how those beliefs would translate into action. If you're playing a cleric serving a god or goddess of knowledge, for example, you first need to know what kind of uses the deity thinks knowledge ought to be put to. Often, such deities are neutral in alignment (e. g. Forgotten Realms's Oghma) and advocate the spread of knowledge in general. If you're playing a LG cleric of Oghma, however, you might emphasize the responsible dissemination of knowledge, and attempt to prevent dangerous information from falling into the hands of people who will use it for evil purposes. It's a rather nifty way of looking at the class, I think. Anyway, mechanically speaking, the cleric is better than the sorcerer. This is just the way it is; the sorcerer, as a class, is an example of a good idea that could have been executed a lot more elegantly. It doesn't mean that the sorcerer is a weak class, because it isn't. But a cleric has more versatility and more capacity to absorb damage while dealing out nearly as much as the sorcerer. Previous posters to this thread have already indicated that in a contest to see who can cast the best "save or die" spells, the sorcerer is going to lose. The original poster really pretty much was trying to find some way for people to tell him, truthfully, that this was not so. But it is. Clerics are better at that kind of thing than sorcerers. On the other hand, clerics cannot match the sorcerer for sheer destructive power on the large scale. If you want to kill a single NPC with one action, a cleric can do it very nicely. If you want to level an entire city block, you call for a sorcerer. It's that kind of difference.