Clever Tricks with .... Ventriloquism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clever Tricks with .... Ventriloquism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
helicopter
10-22-06, 01:41 AM Hey Folks,

I've always liked the 1st level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spell called Ventriloquism. But to be honest with you, I've never seen it played at the table. Ever. So my newly created 9th level Wizard just added it to his spell book.

My question to all you creative folk out there is:

What interesting and clever tricks can you use with Ventriloquism?

.....

A few things that I don't like about the spell: It is not friendly to Arcane Tricksters. Specifically due to the Verbal component which could compromise stealth. I also don't like the duration. At 1 minute/level, even at higher levels you will probably only get to use it in 1 combat encounter per day. I also don't care for the fact that if I *do* want to use it in combat, I'd have to blow an action casting it unless I had a heads-up warning that enemies were "right around the corner".

One trick I can think of is - Ventriloquism allows a caster to cast his spells, even if his body is in the zone of a Silence spell! :)

So, all Ventriloquism tricks, tactics, & commentaries are welcome!
cog_and_taz
10-22-06, 01:46 AM That always works, another AT friendly one is this...

from around a corner: "intruders! Intruders! Help!" etc. orcs or some such move in to investigate, *stab*.

Oh, and one thing I pulled off against a drow cleric, combining it with silent image... this is at level one, mind you, against a level 7 cleric.

Cleric: prays and tries to cast a spell.

Image: huge spider

Voice, far above the cleric: "INFIDEL! You are not worthy of using my power, mortal!"

Cleric: *whimper*

Ahh...good times.
Craig C.
10-22-06, 12:24 PM You are right about the duration of the spell. 1 minute/level spells like this should almost be revised to be 1 round/level add compensate for it by making it a little more useful.

That said, to get max use out of VEntriloquism, you need to be a caster who can speak A LOT of languages. The Tongues spell helps. The more useful and application-specific you make the language being uttered (especially ruses), the better the response of the enemy you are likely to get.
Cherubaddon
10-22-06, 02:05 PM That said, to get max use out of VEntriloquism, you need to be a caster who can speak A LOT of languages. The Tongues spell helps. The more useful and application-specific you make the language being uttered (especially ruses), the better the response of the enemy you are likely to get.

My necromancer speaks 14 (yes, fourteen) languages (updated every other level); is this enough, you think?
Drawback: I forewent illusion. :D
Craig C.
10-22-06, 04:14 PM What counts as interaction with illusionary sound?

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10362060

Core Coliseum thread on the nuances of ajudicating Ventriloquism

http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-201914.htmlI rean into these 2 threads when Google searching. The top thread comes from this forum. The bottom thread is *VERY* rules intensive and lengthy in regards to how to best ajudicate Ventrilo. The bottom thread also makes you think as to how the best spell actually works from a game mechanics perspective.

Since "clever tricks" was obviously the intent of this thread - I would think further insight by some of the rules gurus on this board would also be welcome. The spell is not real crystal clear in how it works like a typical figment and its proprietary "interaction" rules.
helicopter
10-23-06, 01:02 PM Craig, Cog, & Cherubaddon - thanks for the participation.

I especially like those thread links talking about how hard it is to ajudicate ventriloquism. And i agree, any rules discussions on ventriloquism are welcome in this thread. the interaction aspect of this sonic figment is somewhat perplexing. I may have to take back what I said about the spell being a workaround to getting stuck in a zone of magical silence. :plotting:
kliate
10-23-06, 01:13 PM I find that Ventriloquism is a powerful spell in the hands of a DM.

One encounter I had designed (but have yet to use), involved a Kobold Sorceror and two Wyrmling White Dragons that live in a mountain cave. When intruders are discovered, the Kobold Sorceror would use Ventriloquism to call from a trapped passageway "Go back, or I'll make you regret it!"

As a rule of thumb, Ventriloquism is a spell of misdirection. If you're being hunted, use it you cry "Ow!" from the wrong corridor and lead your enemies that way. If you want to direct your opponent to some place where you wouldn't dare go, use it to call out taunts.
Wire
10-23-06, 03:41 PM I find that Ventriloquism is a powerful spell in the hands of a DM.

One encounter I had designed (but have yet to use), involved a Kobold Sorceror and two Wyrmling White Dragons that live in a mountain cave. When intruders are discovered, the Kobold Sorceror would use Ventriloquism to call from a trapped passageway "Go back, or I'll make you regret it!"

As a rule of thumb, Ventriloquism is a spell of misdirection. If you're being hunted, use it you cry "Ow!" from the wrong corridor and lead your enemies that way. If you want to direct your opponent to some place where you wouldn't dare go, use it to call out taunts.I'm curious how you'll judge the interaction-&-save mechanic. If your group of players (say 4 of them) all hear each and every ventriloquismed statement, they get a save each and every time, right? If so, at least 1 of those 4 characters will eventually save by the 2nd round of Ventriloquism -- and that character will make it be known that the thrown voice is fake.

So at best, you might get a round or 2 of confusion out of it before the ruse is figured out. That's why I tend to think Ventrilo may not be worth it.
kliate
10-23-06, 03:49 PM In a situation like that, it may help to conceal the saving throws. On a successful save, the character will likely hear the "true direction". On a failed save, they will hear the false direction. Then leave them to argue over what they really heard.
Craig C.
10-23-06, 10:03 PM Keep in mind, even if someone successfully saves against a given "ventriloquism use" - they may not save against future attempts in the following rounds. That right there can sow more confusion even if a given creature has already succeeded against the spell once.

With the 1 minute per level duration and ventriloquism uses being basically free actions, the ventriloquist can further manipulate his ruse round after round. The ventriloquist should constantly say things (via thrown voice) that makes his intended victims doubting their own sanity.

For if someone does save on Round 1, but fails on Round 2 and 3, the victim may very well have to address "those voices behind him".
Dyerhouse
10-23-06, 10:26 PM We were guarding a caravan in a 1st-level game and were attacked by goblins on a road that ran alongside a forest, and the battle was going badly. So I cast ventriloquism and from the trees the goblins heard, "Ready, Elves? Take aim!"
The fact that they couldn't see anything in the trees actually helped the illusion a lot.
helicopter
10-24-06, 12:31 PM What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice?

That way you can variate by tossing different voices around an area. Make it seem like there are more people in a given zone than just you and/or your party.
Cherubaddon
10-24-06, 01:10 PM What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice?

Good question. I think I would ask for a Caster Level Check with a bonus equal to one-half the ranks in bluff the character has, opposed by the enemy's sense motive check, plus modifiers for familiarity with the person being mimicked etc.
Definitely DM's discretion.
kliate
10-24-06, 06:01 PM What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice?
Disguise. Possibly with a circumstance modifier for not being seen.
redraven
10-24-06, 08:45 PM The most limited factor in my estimation is the Close range. Even a 10th level wizard is only going to make it issue from 50 feet away.

For this reason, I'd rule that the casting of Ventriloquism can be heard as normal, but from then on the wizard can project his voice from any square in range without actually speaking loud enough to hear (i.e. no one can hear the wizard speaking from the square he is actually at, unless he uses Ventriloquism to speak from his square).

As for defeating Silence spells, let's get real. If a wizard or sorcerer spends the time to cast Ventriloquism, an otherwise useless spell, in the off chance he is near a Silence spell he should be able to defeat Silence. Likewise, if he is grappled and pinned to the point where he cannot speak and manages to make the the Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level), has the material components/focuses in hand and doesn't need Somatic components, then he should be able to cast the spell.

I do not see any of these uses of Ventriloquism as broken, overpowered, or even surprising. It seems exactly what Ventriloquism should be able to do. Otherwise, it is a waste of a spell slot in almost every other instance.
MareltEkiran
10-24-06, 09:07 PM My only issue with the usage is that if the spell is combined with (greater) invisibility, it becomes an automatic "hide my position" spell, which makes most sound-based tracing useless.
helicopter
10-24-06, 10:55 PM What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice?

Responses:
Disguise. Possibly with a circumstance modifier for not being seen.Good question. I think I would ask for a Caster Level Check with a bonus equal to one-half the ranks in bluff the character has, opposed by the enemy's sense motive check, plus modifiers for familiarity with the person being mimicked etc. Definitely DM's discretion.
Interesting responses. I can see both Bluff and Disguise skills being important here. Bluff in the simulation "intent" - Disguise in the simulation "delivery".

I looked in Complete Adventurers sourcebook hoping to find in the expanded skills section a "voice simulation" rule variant, but I found nothing. Although from memory, I recall the Fiend Folio's Mongrelfolk having a game mechanic that accurately presents "voice simulation".

I wonder if any of the Changeling race racial feats or game mechanics from Eberron does voice simulation? And if so, what book?
ScipioX
10-24-06, 11:08 PM Bluff and Disguise are definitely the two appropriate skills.

Use bluff when you are trying some trickery, as in the "ready, elves" example used above.

use disguise to change your voice to sound like different people.

The bluff use should be opposed by sense motive. The disguise use should be at a flat DC to simply alter your voice sufficiently to sound like somebody else. Something like DC 10 to sound like another member of the same race and gender, with increasing DC's if you are trying to sound like something else.

An opposed roll would only be required for disguise if you were trying to make the ventrilo sound like somebody specific that the listeners knew.

Edit: after reading some of the posts in the linked threads, I think that ventriliquism 'mutes' your voice while projecting the sound elsewhere. The language of the spell says seems to come from somewhere else. If it was also coming from your mouth, the spell would be totally worthless. Plus, the entire meaning of ventriliquism is to make your voice come from somewhere else. Ventriliquists don't talk AND have their dummies talk at the same time!

I don't think, however, that ventriliquism would allow you to cast in silenced areas or when otherwise unable to speak. It is an illusion after all, and only "seems" to project your voice elsewhere.
User5127
10-25-06, 12:47 AM pull out unearthed arcana and read over the complex skill check portion of it. that should solve the "should it be this skill or this skill?" dilemma, since both seem to be needed, bluff to make them think it and disguise to actually do it.

if not, well pick one for the ruling and keep it that way for the rest of the game. neither one really trumps out over the other.
Book
10-25-06, 08:08 PM Arcane Tricksters would get a lot of mileage out of the Bluff/Disguise skill check combo (mentioned by User5127) and a decent spellcaster level cast Ventroiloquism.

They are the only ones who could effectively get the skills ranks up high enough - while still getting good usage range on the spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
helicopter 10-22-06, 01:41 AM	Hey Folks, I've always liked the 1st level Bard/Sorc/Wiz spell called Ventriloquism. But to be honest with you, I've never seen it played at the table. Ever. So my newly created 9th level Wizard just added it to his spell book. My question to all you creative folk out there is: What interesting and clever tricks can you use with Ventriloquism? ..... A few things that I don't like about the spell: It is not friendly to Arcane Tricksters. Specifically due to the Verbal component which could compromise stealth. I also don't like the duration. At 1 minute/level, even at higher levels you will probably only get to use it in 1 combat encounter per day. I also don't care for the fact that if I do want to use it in combat, I'd have to blow an action casting it unless I had a heads-up warning that enemies were "right around the corner". One trick I can think of is - Ventriloquism allows a caster to cast his spells, even if his body is in the zone of a Silence spell! :) So, all Ventriloquism tricks, tactics, & commentaries are welcome!
cog_and_taz 10-22-06, 01:46 AM	That always works, another AT friendly one is this... from around a corner: "intruders! Intruders! Help!" etc. orcs or some such move in to investigate, stab. Oh, and one thing I pulled off against a drow cleric, combining it with silent image... this is at level one, mind you, against a level 7 cleric. Cleric: prays and tries to cast a spell. Image: huge spider Voice, far above the cleric: "INFIDEL! You are not worthy of using my power, mortal!" Cleric: whimper Ahh...good times.
Craig C. 10-22-06, 12:24 PM	You are right about the duration of the spell. 1 minute/level spells like this should almost be revised to be 1 round/level add compensate for it by making it a little more useful. That said, to get max use out of VEntriloquism, you need to be a caster who can speak A LOT of languages. The Tongues spell helps. The more useful and application-specific you make the language being uttered (especially ruses), the better the response of the enemy you are likely to get.
Cherubaddon 10-22-06, 02:05 PM	That said, to get max use out of VEntriloquism, you need to be a caster who can speak A LOT of languages. The Tongues spell helps. The more useful and application-specific you make the language being uttered (especially ruses), the better the response of the enemy you are likely to get. My necromancer speaks 14 (yes, fourteen) languages (updated every other level); is this enough, you think? Drawback: I forewent illusion. :D
Craig C. 10-22-06, 04:14 PM	What counts as interaction with illusionary sound? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10362060 Core Coliseum thread on the nuances of ajudicating Ventriloquism http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-201914.htmlI rean into these 2 threads when Google searching. The top thread comes from this forum. The bottom thread is VERY rules intensive and lengthy in regards to how to best ajudicate Ventrilo. The bottom thread also makes you think as to how the best spell actually works from a game mechanics perspective. Since "clever tricks" was obviously the intent of this thread - I would think further insight by some of the rules gurus on this board would also be welcome. The spell is not real crystal clear in how it works like a typical figment and its proprietary "interaction" rules.
helicopter 10-23-06, 01:02 PM	Craig, Cog, & Cherubaddon - thanks for the participation. I especially like those thread links talking about how hard it is to ajudicate ventriloquism. And i agree, any rules discussions on ventriloquism are welcome in this thread. the interaction aspect of this sonic figment is somewhat perplexing. I may have to take back what I said about the spell being a workaround to getting stuck in a zone of magical silence. :plotting:
kliate 10-23-06, 01:13 PM	I find that Ventriloquism is a powerful spell in the hands of a DM. One encounter I had designed (but have yet to use), involved a Kobold Sorceror and two Wyrmling White Dragons that live in a mountain cave. When intruders are discovered, the Kobold Sorceror would use Ventriloquism to call from a trapped passageway "Go back, or I'll make you regret it!" As a rule of thumb, Ventriloquism is a spell of misdirection. If you're being hunted, use it you cry "Ow!" from the wrong corridor and lead your enemies that way. If you want to direct your opponent to some place where you wouldn't dare go, use it to call out taunts.
Wire 10-23-06, 03:41 PM	I find that Ventriloquism is a powerful spell in the hands of a DM. One encounter I had designed (but have yet to use), involved a Kobold Sorceror and two Wyrmling White Dragons that live in a mountain cave. When intruders are discovered, the Kobold Sorceror would use Ventriloquism to call from a trapped passageway "Go back, or I'll make you regret it!" As a rule of thumb, Ventriloquism is a spell of misdirection. If you're being hunted, use it you cry "Ow!" from the wrong corridor and lead your enemies that way. If you want to direct your opponent to some place where you wouldn't dare go, use it to call out taunts.I'm curious how you'll judge the interaction-&-save mechanic. If your group of players (say 4 of them) all hear each and every ventriloquismed statement, they get a save each and every time, right? If so, at least 1 of those 4 characters will eventually save by the 2nd round of Ventriloquism -- and that character will make it be known that the thrown voice is fake. So at best, you might get a round or 2 of confusion out of it before the ruse is figured out. That's why I tend to think Ventrilo may not be worth it.
kliate 10-23-06, 03:49 PM	In a situation like that, it may help to conceal the saving throws. On a successful save, the character will likely hear the "true direction". On a failed save, they will hear the false direction. Then leave them to argue over what they really heard.
Craig C. 10-23-06, 10:03 PM	Keep in mind, even if someone successfully saves against a given "ventriloquism use" - they may not save against future attempts in the following rounds. That right there can sow more confusion even if a given creature has already succeeded against the spell once. With the 1 minute per level duration and ventriloquism uses being basically free actions, the ventriloquist can further manipulate his ruse round after round. The ventriloquist should constantly say things (via thrown voice) that makes his intended victims doubting their own sanity. For if someone does save on Round 1, but fails on Round 2 and 3, the victim may very well have to address "those voices behind him".
Dyerhouse 10-23-06, 10:26 PM	We were guarding a caravan in a 1st-level game and were attacked by goblins on a road that ran alongside a forest, and the battle was going badly. So I cast ventriloquism and from the trees the goblins heard, "Ready, Elves? Take aim!" The fact that they couldn't see anything in the trees actually helped the illusion a lot.
helicopter 10-24-06, 12:31 PM	What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice? That way you can variate by tossing different voices around an area. Make it seem like there are more people in a given zone than just you and/or your party.
Cherubaddon 10-24-06, 01:10 PM	What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice? Good question. I think I would ask for a Caster Level Check with a bonus equal to one-half the ranks in bluff the character has, opposed by the enemy's sense motive check, plus modifiers for familiarity with the person being mimicked etc. Definitely DM's discretion.
kliate 10-24-06, 06:01 PM	What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice? Disguise. Possibly with a circumstance modifier for not being seen.
redraven 10-24-06, 08:45 PM	The most limited factor in my estimation is the Close range. Even a 10th level wizard is only going to make it issue from 50 feet away. For this reason, I'd rule that the casting of Ventriloquism can be heard as normal, but from then on the wizard can project his voice from any square in range without actually speaking loud enough to hear (i.e. no one can hear the wizard speaking from the square he is actually at, unless he uses Ventriloquism to speak from his square). As for defeating Silence spells, let's get real. If a wizard or sorcerer spends the time to cast Ventriloquism, an otherwise useless spell, in the off chance he is near a Silence spell he should be able to defeat Silence. Likewise, if he is grappled and pinned to the point where he cannot speak and manages to make the the Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level), has the material components/focuses in hand and doesn't need Somatic components, then he should be able to cast the spell. I do not see any of these uses of Ventriloquism as broken, overpowered, or even surprising. It seems exactly what Ventriloquism should be able to do. Otherwise, it is a waste of a spell slot in almost every other instance.
MareltEkiran 10-24-06, 09:07 PM	My only issue with the usage is that if the spell is combined with (greater) invisibility, it becomes an automatic "hide my position" spell, which makes most sound-based tracing useless.
helicopter 10-24-06, 10:55 PM	What skills would you use to simulate another person's voice? Responses: Disguise. Possibly with a circumstance modifier for not being seen.Good question. I think I would ask for a Caster Level Check with a bonus equal to one-half the ranks in bluff the character has, opposed by the enemy's sense motive check, plus modifiers for familiarity with the person being mimicked etc. Definitely DM's discretion. Interesting responses. I can see both Bluff and Disguise skills being important here. Bluff in the simulation "intent" - Disguise in the simulation "delivery". I looked in Complete Adventurers sourcebook hoping to find in the expanded skills section a "voice simulation" rule variant, but I found nothing. Although from memory, I recall the Fiend Folio's Mongrelfolk having a game mechanic that accurately presents "voice simulation". I wonder if any of the Changeling race racial feats or game mechanics from Eberron does voice simulation? And if so, what book?
ScipioX 10-24-06, 11:08 PM	Bluff and Disguise are definitely the two appropriate skills. Use bluff when you are trying some trickery, as in the "ready, elves" example used above. use disguise to change your voice to sound like different people. The bluff use should be opposed by sense motive. The disguise use should be at a flat DC to simply alter your voice sufficiently to sound like somebody else. Something like DC 10 to sound like another member of the same race and gender, with increasing DC's if you are trying to sound like something else. An opposed roll would only be required for disguise if you were trying to make the ventrilo sound like somebody specific that the listeners knew. Edit: after reading some of the posts in the linked threads, I think that ventriliquism 'mutes' your voice while projecting the sound elsewhere. The language of the spell says seems to come from somewhere else. If it was also coming from your mouth, the spell would be totally worthless. Plus, the entire meaning of ventriliquism is to make your voice come from somewhere else. Ventriliquists don't talk AND have their dummies talk at the same time! I don't think, however, that ventriliquism would allow you to cast in silenced areas or when otherwise unable to speak. It is an illusion after all, and only "seems" to project your voice elsewhere.
User5127 10-25-06, 12:47 AM	pull out unearthed arcana and read over the complex skill check portion of it. that should solve the "should it be this skill or this skill?" dilemma, since both seem to be needed, bluff to make them think it and disguise to actually do it. if not, well pick one for the ruling and keep it that way for the rest of the game. neither one really trumps out over the other.
Book 10-25-06, 08:08 PM	Arcane Tricksters would get a lot of mileage out of the Bluff/Disguise skill check combo (mentioned by User5127) and a decent spellcaster level cast Ventroiloquism. They are the only ones who could effectively get the skills ranks up high enough - while still getting good usage range on the spell.