Clone & Lichdom [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clone & Lichdom [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Petrankov
05-27-06, 08:28 AM Let's say you have a clone. In the meantime you seek the secrets to becoming a Lich and you make the transformation. Does your clone now awaken because you have effectively died? Would your clone have the compulsion to kill you as a Lich? Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Witch
05-27-06, 08:37 AM You can't clone something before that thing is dead, excepting the Stasis Clone spell.

And I don't think there's a compulsion involved with the spell.

There's also the problem if Undeath constituted Death.
Yaeri
05-27-06, 08:45 AM If I remember the clone spell correctly, it created lifeless copies of yourself, in stasis. When you died, your soul could inhabit one of your clones and live anew.
If this is correct, then no, when you become a lich none of your clones will come allive.
When you become a lich, if I understand correctly, your soul is put in your phylactery. So it couldn't go inhabit a clone.

PS: No matter what exactly happens to a lich's soul, it stays in either the lich, or the phylactery, or both, and cannot travel to a clone.
Witch
05-27-06, 08:50 AM If I remember the clone spell correctly, it created lifeless copies of yourself, in stasis. When you died, your soul could inhabit one of your clones and live anew.

No, the clone spell does not create lifeless copies of yourself in stasis.
It creates lifeless copies of a target, which decay if the target is not currently dead.
Derren S.
05-27-06, 08:58 AM The clone will not awaken because the soul is still in teh phylactery so the lich will respawn as normal.

But if the phylactery is destroyed then the soul would go into the clone. So the clone spell is a nice backup for a lich.

And you are wrong Witch, you can clone something before it is dead.
Witch
05-27-06, 09:02 AM And you are wrong Witch, you can clone something before it is dead.

A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved.

It'll be fairly difficult. You basically create a corpse.
Derren S.
05-27-06, 09:07 AM Preventing a corpse from rotting is very easy to do with magic.
Petrankov
05-27-06, 09:20 AM The Clone spell description discusses cloning someone who is still alive.

"A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is still unavailable,but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved."

So Witch you are basically correct that you are creating a corpse but access to Gentle Repose is easy enough to obtain if you are powerful enough to have the clone to begin with.

Thanks Yaeri. I kind of figured that was the case, just wanted someone else's opinion on the matter. Would be interesting though if someone that was a Lich was now restored to life in that particular manner :)
Yaeri
05-27-06, 09:21 AM No, the clone spell does not create lifeless copies of yourself in stasis.
It creates lifeless copies of a target, which decay if the target is not currently dead.
True.

Indeed, it seems like an interesting thing. A 1000 year old lich could after his destruction, suddenly return to the scene as his proper self. Unless perhaps, the clone spell prevents you from transcending the age limit. Then this ex-lich would come to life in his pre-lich body, to die of old age. :D
Derren S.
05-27-06, 09:34 AM As the clone which is created is just a "inert piece of flesh" I don't think that it would age, only rot.
That means that the clone spell would be a way to immortality, you just have to kill yourself before dieing of old age and you will return to your clone which is still as young as you were when you created the clone.
Witch
05-27-06, 09:35 AM Unless perhaps, the clone spell prevents you from transcending the age limit.
It does.

If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
Thomas_Covenant
05-27-06, 09:40 AM Clone
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One clone
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). The original’s physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.
When the clone is completed, the original’s soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including the loss of one level or 2 points of Constitution (if the original was a 1st-level character). If this Constitution adjustment would give the clone a Constitution score of 0, the spell fails. If the original creature has lost levels since the flesh sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone would otherwise be, the clone is one level below the level at which the original died.
The spell duplicates only the original’s body and mind, not its equipment.
A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved.
Material Component: The piece of flesh and various laboratory supplies (cost 1,000 gp).
Focus: Special laboratory equipment (cost 500 gp).To the original post (OP), the first question is, in becoming a lich, do you die and be reborn as a lich, or is it a transformative effect?
The only real details on becoming a lich relate to the phylactery, so that first question lies square in the realm of DM purview.

If transformative...nope, doesn't awaken. (You never died)
If died/reborn its fuzzy...I would rule...
A) you have (1) soul.
B) You were dedicated to placing the soul in the phylactery, so that's likely where it went.
C) Due to B), the clone doesn't get a soul, so it doesn't awaken.

Next question: There is no provision for the slay-compulsion of a clone in the rules.
I DM in Faerun, and am well aware of Manshoon's stasis clone madness, but that surprised everyone, especially his killers.
(Maybe Manshoon as well? Hrm.)

Further Notes:
RAW, you had to get the flesh before lich transformation, which the OP stated he did in his example. It had to be preserved, but there are numerous ways to do this. (Gentle Repose spell, in CORE)
Also RAW, if you gain more levels after the clone, you lose one off current level, not when the flesh was removed. I always read it differently. Either I read it wrong, or they changed it. Hmmph.
If the lich dies in the OP's case, its soul is not "free", it is in the phylactery. So the lich is reborn as normal, and the clone will not be activated. Unless of course the phylactery was destroyed, then it will PROBABLY activate.
(I saw a FAQ somewhere that said a lich with a destroyed phylactery had a soul
location of "unknown" but I disagreed with it.)

Interesting. A sharp lich may keep a preserved piece of flesh from his living body. If his phylactery is destroyed, he could use clone as an emergency backup, while he makes a new one....learn something every day.

And on Stasis Clone (Lords of Darkness):
RAW, "....the soul transfers to the stasis clone...."
Which may override the phylactery, even though it makes no logical sense.

Stasis Clone doesn't rot, and specifies soul goes to most recent copy.
No, I still have no clue what happened with Manshoon.

Previous editions had more details on the lich's soul/phylactery. They spelled it out as immune to magic jar/possession, among other things. 3.X seems to avoid "icky" details like that, pity.
Petrankov
05-27-06, 10:58 AM Yes I am running in the Realms as well which is part of where the idea of the compulsion came from on my part.

However, I also played AD&D so the last time I encountered the spell and REALLY delved into it was back then when the rules were different.

p. 189 AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook states- ""This spell creates a duplicate of a human demihuman or humanoid creature. This clone is in most respects the duplicate of the individual, complete to the levels of experience, memories, etc. However, the duplicate really IS the person, so that if the original and duplicate exist at the same time, each knows of the other's existence; and the original person and the clone will each desire to do away with the other, for such an alter ego is unbearable to both. If one cannot destroy the other, one will go insane (90% likely to be the clone) and destroy itself, or possibly both (2%) chance both will become mad and destroy themselves. These events nearly always occur within one week of the dual existence."

I believe Manshoon was slain by Fzoul when these rules were still in effect thus the compulsion and resulting wars between the Manshoons.

It is interesting just how different the versions of the spells are from 2ed to now. Clone in 3.5 (& 3.0) are no different.

As Witch has stated though if you are a 1,000 year old Lich you probably could not be cloned because you have existed past your natural lifetime and cannot use the clone spell as a nifty contingency.

Neat stuff. Thanks for all of your posts.
Derren S.
05-27-06, 11:12 AM As Witch has stated though if you are a 1,000 year old Lich you probably could not be cloned because you have existed past your natural lifetime and cannot use the clone spell as a nifty contingency.

This doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is if you die of a natural cause or not.
Witch
05-27-06, 11:19 AM This doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is if you die of a natural cause or not.
Which is even more utter crap than "natural lifespan".
It depends heavily of your definition of natural, which is never ever defined in D&D.
You could call a lion part of nature, which would imply that if a lion killed you, it would be a natural cause.

Since this is obviously not the intention of the spell, we'll just have it at the fact that the maximum age determines "natural causes", shall we? Maximum ages reflect death according to natural causes as intended by the developers.
Derren S.
05-27-06, 11:24 AM Sure, but what is the maximum lifespan of an undead? They have none.
And when you die and get as old man (but still a violent death) and awake in a young clone what is your age then? The age of your soul or the age of your body?
Witch
05-27-06, 11:30 AM Sure, but what is the maximum lifespan of an undead? They have none.
And when you die and get as old man (but still a violent death) and awake in a young clone what is your age then? The age of your soul or the age of your body?

Fortunately the clone flesh has to be taken when alive, so the undeath does not matter.
One looks at the maximum age of that creature.
If that maximum age is ended, the possibility of the clone is gone.

And it's the age of your soul, as is clearly implied in the spell description.

If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
Petrankov
05-27-06, 11:30 AM I would have to agree with Witch here, though I think you make an interesting point Derren. I would have to say natural lifespan is the age of the soul not of the body. When it is your time it is your time even in D&D. You cannot resurrect someone that died of natural causes BUT if they died prematurely you can raise them from the dead. Of course I think I just supported Derren's statement with that last sentence because you do not die of natural causes if you transform yourself into a Lich......
Derren S.
05-27-06, 11:39 AM But what happens then when a kobold psion uses true mind switch on a dragon? Does he still only live 100 years like for a kobold even though he is a dragon now?

And why do you get a different maximum age when you become a dragonborn?
Witch
05-27-06, 11:45 AM But what happens then when a kobold psion uses true mind switch on a dragon? Does he still only live 100 years like for a kobold even though he is a dragon now?

And why do you get a different maximum age when you become a dragonborn?
It's bizarre, but if you use mindswitch, you gain a new maximum age.

I don't understand it either.
Mordae
05-27-06, 04:00 PM As the clone which is created is just a "inert piece of flesh" I don't think that it would age, only rot.
That means that the clone spell would be a way to immortality, you just have to kill yourself before dieing of old age and you will return to your clone which is still as young as you were when you created the clone.

This would be hard, however, as Inevitables (Marut's specifically) could easily destroy your clone.
Immurmodi
05-27-06, 08:51 PM The baelnorn (or something aproximating that spelling) from Forgotten Realms is an elven lich that have a clone instead of an phylactery when its undead body is killed it simply scurries over to its minty fresh clone and continues to live without any problem.

This suggests at least that any time spent as undead is not counted against your clones viability but is hardly decisive.
Witch
05-28-06, 05:00 AM The baelnorn (or something aproximating that spelling) from Forgotten Realms is an elven lich that have a clone instead of an phylactery when its undead body is killed it simply scurries over to its minty fresh clone and continues to live without any problem.

This suggests at least that any time spent as undead is not counted against your clones viability but is hardly decisive.
Forgotten Realms, the place where nothing makes sense.

The place where suddenly dozens of clones awake, and try to kill eachother.

I'd like to think they don't use the standard spell, but have researched a different version of it.
Mysticaloctopus
05-28-06, 05:29 AM This lich / clone thing is like the cloned emperor from the Star Wars books... I forget the names, it's been a long time, but I remember the old 'clone + soul = new life' thing they pulled.

Personally, I'd view the clone as being inhabited by a soul which is undead. You become a lich when your soul returns through special rituals, and your body is a useful host... But with a phylactery you can create a new body if yours is destroyed.

I'd say that because your real body is the ideal host, you can posess it as a Lich once your phylactery is gone, but you have to create a new Phylactery ASAP, because 1d4 days of being in this body after the time it takes to create a phylactery is passed, your spirit moves out of it, even if there isn't a phylactery to use. Nothing taken from RAW there, it's just how I see it working and being dramatic.

*Prepares to be grilled alive for just changing a rule because the Fluff was nice*
Witch
05-28-06, 06:40 AM I'd say that because your real body is the ideal host, you can posess it as a Lich once your phylactery is gone, but you have to create a new Phylactery ASAP, because 1d4 days of being in this body after the time it takes to create a phylactery is passed, your spirit moves out of it, even if there isn't a phylactery to use. Nothing taken from RAW there, it's just how I see it working and being dramatic.

*Prepares to be grilled alive for just changing a rule because the Fluff was nice*
Not at all - I might even agree with you.

But there's a difference between argueing facts, and argueing ideals.
I was argueing "This is how it is". Not "This is how it should be".
Mysticaloctopus
05-28-06, 04:26 PM Ah.... Um, whoops?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Petrankov 05-27-06, 08:28 AM	Let's say you have a clone. In the meantime you seek the secrets to becoming a Lich and you make the transformation. Does your clone now awaken because you have effectively died? Would your clone have the compulsion to kill you as a Lich? Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Witch 05-27-06, 08:37 AM	You can't clone something before that thing is dead, excepting the Stasis Clone spell. And I don't think there's a compulsion involved with the spell. There's also the problem if Undeath constituted Death.
Yaeri 05-27-06, 08:45 AM	If I remember the clone spell correctly, it created lifeless copies of yourself, in stasis. When you died, your soul could inhabit one of your clones and live anew. If this is correct, then no, when you become a lich none of your clones will come allive. When you become a lich, if I understand correctly, your soul is put in your phylactery. So it couldn't go inhabit a clone. PS: No matter what exactly happens to a lich's soul, it stays in either the lich, or the phylactery, or both, and cannot travel to a clone.
Witch 05-27-06, 08:50 AM	If I remember the clone spell correctly, it created lifeless copies of yourself, in stasis. When you died, your soul could inhabit one of your clones and live anew. No, the clone spell does not create lifeless copies of yourself in stasis. It creates lifeless copies of a target, which decay if the target is not currently dead.
Derren S. 05-27-06, 08:58 AM	The clone will not awaken because the soul is still in teh phylactery so the lich will respawn as normal. But if the phylactery is destroyed then the soul would go into the clone. So the clone spell is a nice backup for a lich. And you are wrong Witch, you can clone something before it is dead.
Witch 05-27-06, 09:02 AM	And you are wrong Witch, you can clone something before it is dead. A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved. It'll be fairly difficult. You basically create a corpse.
Derren S. 05-27-06, 09:07 AM	Preventing a corpse from rotting is very easy to do with magic.
Petrankov 05-27-06, 09:20 AM	The Clone spell description discusses cloning someone who is still alive. "A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is still unavailable,but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved." So Witch you are basically correct that you are creating a corpse but access to Gentle Repose is easy enough to obtain if you are powerful enough to have the clone to begin with. Thanks Yaeri. I kind of figured that was the case, just wanted someone else's opinion on the matter. Would be interesting though if someone that was a Lich was now restored to life in that particular manner :)
Yaeri 05-27-06, 09:21 AM	No, the clone spell does not create lifeless copies of yourself in stasis. It creates lifeless copies of a target, which decay if the target is not currently dead. True. Indeed, it seems like an interesting thing. A 1000 year old lich could after his destruction, suddenly return to the scene as his proper self. Unless perhaps, the clone spell prevents you from transcending the age limit. Then this ex-lich would come to life in his pre-lich body, to die of old age. :D
Derren S. 05-27-06, 09:34 AM	As the clone which is created is just a "inert piece of flesh" I don't think that it would age, only rot. That means that the clone spell would be a way to immortality, you just have to kill yourself before dieing of old age and you will return to your clone which is still as young as you were when you created the clone.
Witch 05-27-06, 09:35 AM	Unless perhaps, the clone spell prevents you from transcending the age limit. It does. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
Thomas_Covenant 05-27-06, 09:40 AM	Clone Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 0 ft. Effect: One clone Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return). The original’s physical remains, should they still exist, become inert and cannot thereafter be restored to life. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails. To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body. The piece of flesh need not be fresh, but it must be kept from rotting. Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months. When the clone is completed, the original’s soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including the loss of one level or 2 points of Constitution (if the original was a 1st-level character). If this Constitution adjustment would give the clone a Constitution score of 0, the spell fails. If the original creature has lost levels since the flesh sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone would otherwise be, the clone is one level below the level at which the original died. The spell duplicates only the original’s body and mind, not its equipment. A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved. Material Component: The piece of flesh and various laboratory supplies (cost 1,000 gp). Focus: Special laboratory equipment (cost 500 gp).To the original post (OP), the first question is, in becoming a lich, do you die and be reborn as a lich, or is it a transformative effect? The only real details on becoming a lich relate to the phylactery, so that first question lies square in the realm of DM purview. If transformative...nope, doesn't awaken. (You never died) If died/reborn its fuzzy...I would rule... A) you have (1) soul. B) You were dedicated to placing the soul in the phylactery, so that's likely where it went. C) Due to B), the clone doesn't get a soul, so it doesn't awaken. Next question: There is no provision for the slay-compulsion of a clone in the rules. I DM in Faerun, and am well aware of Manshoon's stasis clone madness, but that surprised everyone, especially his killers. (Maybe Manshoon as well? Hrm.) Further Notes: RAW, you had to get the flesh before lich transformation, which the OP stated he did in his example. It had to be preserved, but there are numerous ways to do this. (Gentle Repose spell, in CORE) Also RAW, if you gain more levels after the clone, you lose one off current level, not when the flesh was removed. I always read it differently. Either I read it wrong, or they changed it. Hmmph. If the lich dies in the OP's case, its soul is not "free", it is in the phylactery. So the lich is reborn as normal, and the clone will not be activated. Unless of course the phylactery was destroyed, then it will PROBABLY activate. (I saw a FAQ somewhere that said a lich with a destroyed phylactery had a soul location of "unknown" but I disagreed with it.) Interesting. A sharp lich may keep a preserved piece of flesh from his living body. If his phylactery is destroyed, he could use clone as an emergency backup, while he makes a new one....learn something every day. And on Stasis Clone (Lords of Darkness): RAW, "....the soul transfers to the stasis clone...." Which may override the phylactery, even though it makes no logical sense. Stasis Clone doesn't rot, and specifies soul goes to most recent copy. No, I still have no clue what happened with Manshoon. Previous editions had more details on the lich's soul/phylactery. They spelled it out as immune to magic jar/possession, among other things. 3.X seems to avoid "icky" details like that, pity.
Petrankov 05-27-06, 10:58 AM	Yes I am running in the Realms as well which is part of where the idea of the compulsion came from on my part. However, I also played AD&D so the last time I encountered the spell and REALLY delved into it was back then when the rules were different. p. 189 AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook states- ""This spell creates a duplicate of a human demihuman or humanoid creature. This clone is in most respects the duplicate of the individual, complete to the levels of experience, memories, etc. However, the duplicate really IS the person, so that if the original and duplicate exist at the same time, each knows of the other's existence; and the original person and the clone will each desire to do away with the other, for such an alter ego is unbearable to both. If one cannot destroy the other, one will go insane (90% likely to be the clone) and destroy itself, or possibly both (2%) chance both will become mad and destroy themselves. These events nearly always occur within one week of the dual existence." I believe Manshoon was slain by Fzoul when these rules were still in effect thus the compulsion and resulting wars between the Manshoons. It is interesting just how different the versions of the spells are from 2ed to now. Clone in 3.5 (& 3.0) are no different. As Witch has stated though if you are a 1,000 year old Lich you probably could not be cloned because you have existed past your natural lifetime and cannot use the clone spell as a nifty contingency. Neat stuff. Thanks for all of your posts.
Derren S. 05-27-06, 11:12 AM	As Witch has stated though if you are a 1,000 year old Lich you probably could not be cloned because you have existed past your natural lifetime and cannot use the clone spell as a nifty contingency. This doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is if you die of a natural cause or not.
Witch 05-27-06, 11:19 AM	This doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is if you die of a natural cause or not. Which is even more utter crap than "natural lifespan". It depends heavily of your definition of natural, which is never ever defined in D&D. You could call a lion part of nature, which would imply that if a lion killed you, it would be a natural cause. Since this is obviously not the intention of the spell, we'll just have it at the fact that the maximum age determines "natural causes", shall we? Maximum ages reflect death according to natural causes as intended by the developers.
Derren S. 05-27-06, 11:24 AM	Sure, but what is the maximum lifespan of an undead? They have none. And when you die and get as old man (but still a violent death) and awake in a young clone what is your age then? The age of your soul or the age of your body?
Witch 05-27-06, 11:30 AM	Sure, but what is the maximum lifespan of an undead? They have none. And when you die and get as old man (but still a violent death) and awake in a young clone what is your age then? The age of your soul or the age of your body? Fortunately the clone flesh has to be taken when alive, so the undeath does not matter. One looks at the maximum age of that creature. If that maximum age is ended, the possibility of the clone is gone. And it's the age of your soul, as is clearly implied in the spell description. If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
Petrankov 05-27-06, 11:30 AM	I would have to agree with Witch here, though I think you make an interesting point Derren. I would have to say natural lifespan is the age of the soul not of the body. When it is your time it is your time even in D&D. You cannot resurrect someone that died of natural causes BUT if they died prematurely you can raise them from the dead. Of course I think I just supported Derren's statement with that last sentence because you do not die of natural causes if you transform yourself into a Lich......
Derren S. 05-27-06, 11:39 AM	But what happens then when a kobold psion uses true mind switch on a dragon? Does he still only live 100 years like for a kobold even though he is a dragon now? And why do you get a different maximum age when you become a dragonborn?
Witch 05-27-06, 11:45 AM	But what happens then when a kobold psion uses true mind switch on a dragon? Does he still only live 100 years like for a kobold even though he is a dragon now? And why do you get a different maximum age when you become a dragonborn? It's bizarre, but if you use mindswitch, you gain a new maximum age. I don't understand it either.
Mordae 05-27-06, 04:00 PM	As the clone which is created is just a "inert piece of flesh" I don't think that it would age, only rot. That means that the clone spell would be a way to immortality, you just have to kill yourself before dieing of old age and you will return to your clone which is still as young as you were when you created the clone. This would be hard, however, as Inevitables (Marut's specifically) could easily destroy your clone.
Immurmodi 05-27-06, 08:51 PM	The baelnorn (or something aproximating that spelling) from Forgotten Realms is an elven lich that have a clone instead of an phylactery when its undead body is killed it simply scurries over to its minty fresh clone and continues to live without any problem. This suggests at least that any time spent as undead is not counted against your clones viability but is hardly decisive.
Witch 05-28-06, 05:00 AM	The baelnorn (or something aproximating that spelling) from Forgotten Realms is an elven lich that have a clone instead of an phylactery when its undead body is killed it simply scurries over to its minty fresh clone and continues to live without any problem. This suggests at least that any time spent as undead is not counted against your clones viability but is hardly decisive. Forgotten Realms, the place where nothing makes sense. The place where suddenly dozens of clones awake, and try to kill eachother. I'd like to think they don't use the standard spell, but have researched a different version of it.
Mysticaloctopus 05-28-06, 05:29 AM	This lich / clone thing is like the cloned emperor from the Star Wars books... I forget the names, it's been a long time, but I remember the old 'clone + soul = new life' thing they pulled. Personally, I'd view the clone as being inhabited by a soul which is undead. You become a lich when your soul returns through special rituals, and your body is a useful host... But with a phylactery you can create a new body if yours is destroyed. I'd say that because your real body is the ideal host, you can posess it as a Lich once your phylactery is gone, but you have to create a new Phylactery ASAP, because 1d4 days of being in this body after the time it takes to create a phylactery is passed, your spirit moves out of it, even if there isn't a phylactery to use. Nothing taken from RAW there, it's just how I see it working and being dramatic. Prepares to be grilled alive for just changing a rule because the Fluff was nice
Witch 05-28-06, 06:40 AM	I'd say that because your real body is the ideal host, you can posess it as a Lich once your phylactery is gone, but you have to create a new Phylactery ASAP, because 1d4 days of being in this body after the time it takes to create a phylactery is passed, your spirit moves out of it, even if there isn't a phylactery to use. Nothing taken from RAW there, it's just how I see it working and being dramatic. Prepares to be grilled alive for just changing a rule because the Fluff was nice Not at all - I might even agree with you. But there's a difference between argueing facts, and argueing ideals. I was argueing "This is how it is". Not "This is how it should be".
Mysticaloctopus 05-28-06, 04:26 PM	Ah.... Um, whoops?