Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Rixarn 10-06-03, 10:18 PM	As stated you make a clone of yourself but unlike the previous spell of 3.0, clone DOES restore your memory just after you where dead AND you lose only 1 level, this means, that my sorceres will be forever inmortal?, cloning himself with a piece of flesh of him being young, then when i get older, before im dead of old age I just commit suicide and i get back to my "new" fresh and young body and even when im 600 years old(elf) i will still have the body of a 150 elf, with a minus level, but what the hell, from the time i make a copy of myself to the time i grown older, i will be a lot more leveled, trading a level for youth is a fair trade :) what do think?
RhoPhiGamma 10-06-03, 10:26 PM	No. When the clone is completed, the original’s soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead. The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original. In other respects, treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, including the loss of one level or 2 points of Constitution (if the original was a 1st-level character). Emphasis mine.
Xaxor 10-06-03, 11:27 PM	Reincarnation can make you truly immortal. And heck, if you're going for immortality, you probably already have the ability to cast wish, so you can change yourself right back to your old form.
ManTimeForgot 10-07-03, 12:35 AM	Assuming the form you reincarnate into can cast spells of that nature. Reincarnating as a hedgehod or whatever will suck for your spell casting ability. A wizard with druid levels for natural spell might be able to do it though. Can a druid/wizard multiclass make an arcane spell natural? Memorizing a natural polymorph to restore human form temporarily, and then wishing to make human the natural form would then be possible. Clone as pointed out, creates the same age as when you died; no where does it say clone creates it at the age from which the flesh was taken. Obviously the designers realized such an immortality scheme and did not allow it through clone. Besides there are easier ways of "living" forever. Skin ride your way into the future through trap the soul and trade bodies with unlucky passerby's who pick up the gem. Stay on the astral plane for gazillions of years. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
bitnine 10-07-03, 12:44 AM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Assuming the form you reincarnate into can cast spells of that nature. Reincarnating as a hedgehod or whatever will suck for your spell casting ability. Forms are: Bugbear, Dwarf, Elf, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Human, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Orc, Troglodyte, Other (1%). So... the chances of coming back as a hedgehog are very slim.
TanekCG 10-07-03, 12:59 AM	Hey if you're in a campaign that takes to long that you die of old age either 1. you're roleplaying waaaaaay too much (in which case can I join?) or 2. your GM needs to find something for you to do in a 450 year period.
ManTimeForgot 10-07-03, 01:41 AM	Even still Bitnine, 1% is 1%. And immortal isn't truly immortal if after that 1% triggers you are unable to wish yourself to human, elf, or whatever your original form was. Which begs my original question: Can a wizard/druid memorize a natural arcane spell? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
The Rixarn 10-07-03, 06:20 PM	Nice observation RhoPhiGamma, :D i think my doubts are clear about this spell :) But now, lets take the reincarnate spell then. It says that you can cast a wish or a miracle to return a reincarnated creature to its original form, in my case for example i have a sorceres elf with the silent and still spell feats, even if i reincarnate in a bugbear, i can cast spells ;) so i can try first to polymorph myself to an elf , then cast wish and wish for me to restore my body to an elven form, should i retain my youth?
Gellion 10-07-03, 08:04 PM	This is what Lichdom is for.:devil:
bitnine 10-07-03, 08:10 PM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Even still Bitnine, 1% is 1%. And immortal isn't truly immortal if after that 1% triggers you are unable to wish yourself to human, elf, or whatever your original form was. Well... as the last poster just stated, a casting of Wish or Mircale returns you to your normal form, so hopefully the person who is bringing you back can correct the mistake if that 1% comes up. (And actually it's slightly slimmer, 1% = other, and not everything in the "other" category is so spell deprived.)
Edymnion 10-07-03, 08:14 PM	Astral Projection is a much easier form of immortality, and far less expensive and time consuming.
dwarfpaladinmorlock 10-07-03, 09:15 PM	This all assumes your DM allows it at all. Not that I expect it will ever come up in my game, but it can't happen. Look at certain things like the Timeless body ability of some classes. Your body stays at the age it was when you aquired the ability, but "you still die of old age when your time is up". That, to me, means that your body is basically not the issue. Each creature, when born, has a natural lifespan 'assigned' to them. Race obviously matters here, but it is the race you are born to. Polymorph, reincarnation, clone, ... None of them change this. The only exception, is that time spent as undead does not count against your number of 'living' years. That means that Lichdom, as previously mentioned, or vampirism would be a good way into immortality, but nothing else will do it. At least that is my take on it. Certainly there is nothing terribly official in that, but it is how I am playing it. Again, I really don't think it will ever matter to the PCs, but it does to certain NPCs!
Nephet 10-08-03, 01:18 AM	I'm glad the designers spent so much effort closing all the immortality loopholes. There's nothing worse than an immortal wizard abusing gate and shapechange for eternity.
PhaedrusXY 10-08-03, 03:57 AM	Originally posted by Nephet I'm glad the designers spent so much effort closing all the immortality loopholes. There's nothing worse than an immortal wizard abusing gate and shapechange for eternity. :rofl: Dude, that was so funny you deserve a :cookie:
The Rixarn 10-08-03, 06:45 PM	Each creature, when born, has a natural lifespan 'assigned' to them. Race obviously matters here, but it is the race you are born to. Polymorph, reincarnation, clone, ... None of them change this. This is not the case in reincarnate, as you get a new full and young body as stated literaly in the spell. The question is, can a wish turn you back to your original race, but with your actual youth?
ikkonoishi 10-08-03, 07:00 PM	Originally posted by The Rixarn This is not the case in reincarnate, as you get a new full and young body as stated literaly in the spell. The question is, can a wish turn you back to your original race, but with your actual youth? Bah who cares. Just get a humanoid or near humanoid and go with it. Of course I usually play on the left side of the alignment fields.
dwarfpaladinmorlock 10-08-03, 07:02 PM	I did not mean that reincarnate, or wish could not change your race, just that it would not change your lifespan. If you are born a human, and have a 'lifespan' of 75 years, being reincarnated into an elf would not let you live 400. You still die of old age 75 years after your birth. The fact that you spend some of the time as an elf does not change this. Note also this works to PCs advantages in some cases. A druid that spent a lot of time wildshaped into a wolf would otherwise be 'using up' his lifespan proportionally the way a wolf would. Wolves only live a dozen years or so, which is basically 6 times faster then human. If you current 'race' mattered to your lifespan, every 4 hours in wolf form would equal 1 day off the lifetime of the human druid. It would be even worse for an elven druid. Again, just how I am playing it. After all, why else do wizards and clerics turn themselves into liches? Simply because it is the only way to never die of old age do they do it.
ManTimeForgot 10-08-03, 08:33 PM	With deference to you Mr. Morlock that is a complete and total house rule. To do so you would create badgers through reincarnate that lived to be 800 years old because they were originally elves. You can work reincarnate like that, but that is specifically against what the spell entails. The reincarnate spell provides the person with a new body. And since last time I checked elves did not die after 75 years of existance and that the reincarnate spell provides the person with a different race, then the human who reincarnates into elf does not die after 75 years. Clone specifically provides the prohibition of dying of old age. Reincarnate simply does not. Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
anglar 10-08-03, 10:04 PM	Originally posted by dwarfpaladinmorlock I did not mean that reincarnate, or wish could not change your race, just that it would not change your lifespan. If you are born a human, and have a 'lifespan' of 75 years, being reincarnated into an elf would not let you live 400. You still die of old age 75 years after your birth. The fact that you spend some of the time as an elf does not change this. Note also this works to PCs advantages in some cases. A druid that spent a lot of time wildshaped into a wolf would otherwise be 'using up' his lifespan proportionally the way a wolf would. Wolves only live a dozen years or so, which is basically 6 times faster then human. If you current 'race' mattered to your lifespan, every 4 hours in wolf form would equal 1 day off the lifetime of the human druid. It would be even worse for an elven druid. Again, just how I am playing it. After all, why else do wizards and clerics turn themselves into liches? Simply because it is the only way to never die of old age do they do it. Then how would you explain The Manshoon.
dwarfpaladinmorlock 10-08-03, 10:35 PM	I orginally said that it was not an official rule, and if you want to be that picky about it, you then have to explain why druids and monks die of old age when they have a 'timeless body'. Neither way works perfectly with the rules. I just offered what I use in my game.
bjorntfh 10-09-03, 11:16 AM	For simple Immortality, pick Alienist. You literally cannot die of old age (it does specify) but once your time is up you get dragged off to the Far Realms. Now if you can cast Gate... simply go back to your plane (provided your masters will let you go back... not hard to convince them to allow the continued destruction of the offensive bubble of reality called the Planes.)
youspoonybard 10-09-03, 11:20 AM	Natural Spell only lets you cast spells while you're in Wild Shape. It wouldn't help the hedgehog caster. You'd need Silent and Still spells.
Sildatorak 10-09-03, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by dwarfpaladinmorlock I orginally said that it was not an official rule, and if you want to be that picky about it, you then have to explain why druids and monks die of old age when they have a 'timeless body'. Neither way works perfectly with the rules. I just offered what I use in my game. What I do in my game is stick with 2e. If your body is timeless you don't die of old age. Seriously, what are the odds of an adventuring druid or monk going 50+ years without meeting their match? Taking away that ability was a dumb bit of shtick. Of course they took away the druid hierarchy, too, so I guess it opens up the timelessness to more people. Among other things, in 2e there was only one 15th level druid on any given world at a time, and until he or she stepped down (on gaining 16th level) no other druid could take his or her place. It was also only druids of 16th or higher level that were timeless.
Sildatorak 10-09-03, 12:59 PM	Also, how much butt would it kick to be an epic level spell caster reincarnated as a bugbear? Natural armor, bonuses to all three physical stats, being a big freaky gobliny sucker, what's not to love? You'd probably want to invest in a voluminous cloak to avoid arousing angry mobs, though. My 2¢ for the wish thing is that with this phrasing A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form. your dying old mage is going to wish himself right back into a decrepit body.
The Rixarn 10-09-03, 08:32 PM	The advantage of the timeless body class feature is to avoid penalities to STR DEX and CON from old age, while still gaining the INT, WIS, CHA bonuses, i think its a fair class feature. If you want to become inmortal, aim for divine rank 0 or, leechdoom. Other tricky ways are the mentioned above, using reincarnate. I dont care if i reincarnate in a bugbear :D i can allways cast silent still alter self to elf form :P so what the hell
Yankee 10-09-03, 10:12 PM	Im surprised no-one has mentioned the inevitables yet. They are a great way to end otherwise immortal charachters - if they become a problem. Mainly, I'd take a page from the Everway system, where ageless is a 0 point (read: really cheap) power because its not exactly likely to come into play.
The Rixarn 10-09-03, 10:22 PM	Im surprised no-one has mentioned the inevitables yet. They are a great way to end otherwise immortal charachters - if they become a problem. My intend is not to eliminate or end inmortal characters, my intend is for my character to become one :D, now, the campaing im playing is gonna end but the DM stated that the next campaing will be 1000 years ahead in the same wordline, arguin all our characters will be dead by then. I dont want to use my same character, neither my DM would allow it as he is an epic character, and we ll play new ones, but i still want my PC to live, even if he´s a NPC.
bitnine 10-09-03, 10:25 PM	Well... Finishing up the elemental savant class turns you into an elemental, rendering you immortal. Custserv even signed off on that, if it helps your DM. Do a search, it's floating around here somewhere.
startide 10-09-03, 10:33 PM	Originally posted by The Rixarn The question is, can a wish turn you back to your original race, but with your actual youth? i guess not. that would make wish able to have a more powerful spell effect than the level 9 druid spell - true reincarnate. as far as i know that makes it above the limits of wish edit: actually i guess you need to be reincarnated first, so that isn't a fair analogy. so you get reincarnated, then you are asking with to dupilcate the equivilant effect (or close to the effect) of shapechange + perminancy, which is again too powerful.
ikkonoishi 10-09-03, 11:57 PM	Originally posted by The Rixarn My intend is not to eliminate or end inmortal characters, my intend is for my character to become one :D, now, the campaing im playing is gonna end but the DM stated that the next campaing will be 1000 years ahead in the same wordline, arguin all our characters will be dead by then. I dont want to use my same character, neither my DM would allow it as he is an epic character, and we ll play new ones, but i still want my PC to live, even if he´s a NPC. Immortallity is easy. All you have to do is go kill a god and take it's place. :smirk: You are epic so just get to work on it. Search for some divine rank 0 :angel: wuss and just beat it down.
bitnine 10-09-03, 11:59 PM	Originally posted by The Rixarn I dont want to use my same character, neither my DM would allow it as he is an epic character, and we ll play new ones, but i still want my PC to live, even if he´s a NPC. There's always Temporal Stasis and Eternety of Pain, though I think your character might find the former a more comfortable way to live in the future.
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 05:01 AM	Or one could just planeshift into the astral plane and live out there existance there. (note this does not have to be the astral plane definitely; another timeless plane will do just as nicely). Hm... What would happen if one left a clone on the astral plane then returned to the material plane, then died while on the material plane. In the astral plane there is no time. Would the clone ever have "time" enough to wake up? (this is entirely a pseudo-scientific/philosophical discussion into what constitutes timelessness). If the astral plane is truly timeless then from whence the time the mage left, and the original caster dies, no time will have passed as such all things should remain the same. Do spell effects like contingency and clone ignore planar boundaries and as a result planar effects? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Artur King of the Britons 10-10-03, 06:43 AM	Nice way to kill a thread, ROTFL Peace
The Rixarn 10-10-03, 09:54 AM	My character hates gods, well, i do too, i simply dont like the deific sistem in D&D, so my character doesnt want to die because he doesnt want to be under control of the gods of the dead, i rather prefer him to be under temporal stasis for eternity, than being dead doing god´s of de dead bidding. Temporal stasis is not like "hell, what a bad destiny" all your body functions cease, its like a deep slumber. you dont feel "trapped" like in imprisonment, THATS hell :D I intend to build a "temple" in a far, remote, obscure and ultra hidden-almost unreachable place where i will put my character in temporal stasis, but i intend to cast contingency: dispell magic > 1000 years after I say: "Dispel" :D can it work? hehehe, then my character will live like, 20 years to know the new world, and sleep for another 1000 years :angel:
bitnine 10-10-03, 10:52 AM	Originally posted by ManTimeForgot Or one could just planeshift into the astral plane and live out there existance there. (note this does not have to be the astral plane definitely; another timeless plane will do just as nicely). Yes, but if you ever leave a plane with the timeless trait, doesn't aging catch up with you, in many cases turning should-be-fead folk into bones and dust? I thought that's the way it's went, but it's been a long time since I looked over my MotP.
bjorntfh 10-10-03, 12:34 PM	Nope, timeless planes keep you in temporal stasis for agin. you don't get "caught up" for leaving the planes, otherwise the Gith (either group) would never come to sigil.
The Rixarn 10-10-03, 04:57 PM	Yes, but if you ever leave a plane with the timeless trait, doesn't aging catch up with you, in many cases turning should-be-fead folk into bones and dust? I thought that's the way it's went, but it's been a long time since I looked over my MotP. ` You`re right, but not all timeless planes have that trait on you. As far as i know, astral plane is timeless, but that means "time" doesnt advance from the perspetive of another plane, you still get old and die even in the astral plane, BUT the deal here is, that if you switch to the astral plane and you spend 200 years there, since its timeless,if you go back to your prime material plane you re-appear 1 sec after you left 200 years. So, i200 passed your you, but for the ppl in the material plane you just "blinked" and reappeared a lot older. Nope, timeless planes keep you in temporal stasis for agin. you don't get "caught up" for leaving the planes, otherwise the Gith (either group) would never come to sigil. Then how ppl in those planes are ever born? or grow? a pregnant women will be allways pregnant, a kid will allways be a kid, an adult, allways an adult etc. etc,,,, And since the gith LIVE in the astral plane and they are a civilization i assume they are born, the grow, they get old and they die of old age. If not, then desigenrs should look again at the timeless trait and make it coherent.
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 09:08 PM	See Mr. Arthur, My comments are not thread killers... hehe :). How does timeless function? Magic... How do people born on timeless planes like the gith grow old? Magic... Are gith born adults? Obviously because they rarely leave their plane; the only other alternative is the gith must spend "time" on another plane to grow to the age they want, then live out the rest of their immortal existance on the astral plane... Or maybe creatures born on a timeless plane are born timeless and timeless ^2 is timed, and therefore they will age normally on the astral plane. But then if a creature born on a timeless plane carries with it the timeless quality then going to another plane which has time would make them immortal because they would only be timeless instead of timeless ^2. Does the clone immediatley die of old age on the astral plane if the person in the material plane dies of old age? The astral plane is timeless... :) Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
The Rixarn 10-10-03, 11:07 PM	This timeless **** is, to begin with, a total stupidity. It slipped throught the designer´s mind. "TIME" on the astral plane doesnt pass from the prime material prame views, but "time" itself does pass in the astral plane. Ppl get old, they are born, they get sick etc.. BUT if you´re from the material plane from year 1000, and you travel to astral plane and spend 100 years, when you go back to your original plane in year 1000, not in 1100 cuz time didnt pass for those in the material plane but for you, it did. Timeless planes are "disconnected" from the continual space-time line from other planes. But this just makes you wonder....if i live 100 in the astral, then go back to material for 10 years, and then go back to astral.... since its....TIMELESS, i can reapear in any moment of the world line? or how do you judge where to appear!! anyway its off topic, let all the timeless planes go to hell :D
ManTimeForgot 10-10-03, 11:10 PM	Exactly Rixarn... So if I live out a portion of my existance on the astral plane, then go to the material, then go back to the astral plane I should be able to meet myself during the "time" that I spent on the astral plane because no time will have passed in relation to the time I spent on the material plane. Thus since I am good to myself and like myself, I should be able to convince myself to give me my stuff from then so that I can use it now. I love myself :). See this is why it's nice to be the man time forgot. None of this weird temporal stuff happens to me. ;) Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
startide 10-11-03, 01:09 AM	maybe brian greene will be the author of the next splat book titled "timeless planes and string theory : D&D style"
Vintrastorm 10-14-03, 07:02 PM	Originally posted by The Rixarn my character doesnt want to die because he doesnt want to be under control of the gods of the dead, i rather prefer him to be under temporal stasis for eternity, than being dead doing god´s of de dead bidding. So how about drawing The Void, or cast Imprisonment on yourself? That way you don't have to mess with any gods. :D
ManTimeForgot 10-14-03, 07:09 PM	Cast imprisonment on self while having a set contingency to cast freedom on self after 1,000 years or so. Could that work? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
The Rixarn 10-14-03, 07:54 PM	contingency wont work with freedom, since its a 9th level spell, and you can only use contingency with 6th or lower level spells. What i actually did was to make a temple far away from any form of civilization. and put myself and the party in temporal stasis i have a contingency: dispell magic that will dispell my temporal stasis in 1000 years , to live like 20 or 30 years to see the world, pick some souvenirs and sleep for another 1000 years and repeat the cicle, when ill be too old(not as old as to die from old age), i will commit suicide but i will have a contingency:reincarnate on myself so, ill be back with a new fresh and young body :D ah, inmortality :angel: