Clone: can it bring back those who died at max age? Can young clones be preserved? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clone: can it bring back those who died at max age? Can young clones be preserved? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JulesCARV
09-12-06, 10:46 PM I'm intrigued by the spell clone. What are its limits?

For example, suppose you're a human wizard. You're thirty years old. You make a clone of yourself or two, and preserve the clone with gentle repose, quintessence, unguent of timelessness, or whatever.

At 70 + 2d20 years, you die at maximum age. Can you go into your clone, which is based on you as a 30-year old?
Seraphine_Harmonium
09-13-06, 12:35 AM I'm intrigued by the spell clone. What are its limits?

For example, suppose you're a human wizard. You're thirty years old. You make a clone of yourself or two, and preserve the clone with gentle repose, quintessence, unguent of timelessness, or whatever.

At 70 + 2d20 years, you die at maximum age. Can you go into your clone, which is based on you as a 30-year old?
I'd have to check the rules on that, but I'd say yes. however, the clone would only have the experience level and power the wizard had at the time the clone was made. If the wizard had advanced significantly since then, upon death he would return to life, younger but considerably less powerful than when he left it.

Some of this can be overcome by leaving behind the spellbook and journals relating the wisdom the wizard acquired after the fact, resulting in a young wizard with wisdom beyond his years, and a spellbook beyond his ability. They could probably learn more easily the second time around, though.
Izzak
09-13-06, 12:59 AM I would say yes to my memory of the spell
Thane26425
09-13-06, 01:09 AM The first paragraph of the spell description says: "If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails."

I suppose that one could have oneself killed prior to natural death and perhaps that would work, the soul entering a clone of whatever age the clone was created.
Iver Gearsham
09-13-06, 01:23 AM Get a hair or flesh sample from a high level druid make a Simulacrum (7th level spell) of the druid.

Then make a Transmutation school spell (9th level to Epic level) to remake you into your former Race and Gender.
Kill yourself when old and decrepit with orders to the Simulacrum to Reincarnate you.

From then on eternity is yours enjoy!
epifreak
09-13-06, 03:06 AM Of course, if one is powerful enough to create a clone, why would one not just use magic to prolong one's natural life indefinitely?
guru7892
09-13-06, 03:15 AM Of course, if one is powerful enough to create a clone, why would one not just use magic to prolong one's natural life indefinitely?
because they dont have a spell for that... sadly.
MareltEkiran
09-13-06, 03:21 AM It won't work. The reason for that is the same reason that Resurrection magic won't work at that point. The soul ages along with the body (even with creatures with Timeless Body) and the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body. Therefore, once this point has been reached, you cannot bring the soul back, irregardless of how young the body is that you're trying to use.
Zardnaar
09-13-06, 03:55 AM Who wants to live forever- Queen.

Just use planeshift and go to the Astral plane. If you're powerful enough to get there you should be able to survive. Hint cut a deal with the Githyanki.
Ra-Tiel
09-13-06, 04:40 AM [...] Some of this can be overcome by leaving behind the spellbook and journals relating the wisdom the wizard acquired after the fact, resulting in a young wizard with wisdom beyond his years, and a spellbook beyond his ability. They could probably learn more easily the second time around, though.
Or you just use the king-of-cheese, the ultimate-munchkin's-wet-dream, the most-stupidly-overpowered-item-so-far-devised-by-WotC, the thought bottle. :bored:

Before you die, just put your XPs into the bottle and kill yourself. When you awaken in your clone, go to the bottle and use it to gain your XPs back. Now you have the same amount of XPs as before, minus the cost of 500 to store your XPs. Meh... :nonono:

Who wants to live forever- Queen.

Just use planeshift and go to the Astral plane. If you're powerful enough to get there you should be able to survive. Hint cut a deal with the Githyanki.
Or you just take this (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) feat once in a while. :P
Yaeri
09-13-06, 05:35 AM If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails.
This suggests that someone who has died of old age can not be returned to life via the means of a clone. Ressurection and other life-returning spells, all say the same thing, so this is a general rule in D&D.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-13-06, 05:51 AM the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body.
Source please.
Pindar
09-13-06, 08:13 AM I can't remember ever seeing a rule about soul age preventing being brought back.

I also don't know why powerful characters seeking immortality don't combine reincarnation and a wish or miracle.

You lose a level every once in a while but come back in a young adult body.
Yaeri
09-13-06, 09:02 AM I can't remember ever seeing a rule about soul age preventing being brought back.
Me neither. Although all the bringing-back-to-life spells explicitly state that they can't bring back someone who died of old age, I don't think I've ever seen a general rule that says something about the age of ones soul.
Never the less, the restrictions on those spells give me the impression that such a thing is the intent of the game.
At the very least, it closes a few abusable loopholes. Stacking countless age category mental stat bonuses through reincarnation for example.
Mufflon
09-13-06, 11:03 AM because they dont have a spell for that... sadly.

Indeed they do! Well in FR, atleast. It's an Epic spell called Ioulam's Longevity, it detailed in the PGtF. In short it kills a lot of creatures and prolongs your current age category.
MadMoly
09-13-06, 11:22 AM If memory serves, all the raising spells say they can't raise characters that died of old age. Since this is the case, the clone trick as well as anyother immortality plan can be solved by coup de gracing yourself with a dagger once you believe you are too old to be fairly useful. Shortly after Vulnerable infact. And at -6 CON, your HP should be low enough to drop yourself. Problem solved, you never reach the point of dieing of old age.

MadMoly
True Cavalier
09-13-06, 11:23 AM There already are so many ways to extend your lifespan by the rules that I would definetely allow Clone to work like that...

...I mean, if you can get in the trouble of storing your clone for 70 years, you deserve it :P
EBrightblade
09-13-06, 12:17 PM What about researching a spell that would allow you to permenantly posess another being, then using that spell on the clone you stored...kinda like a brain/soul transplant? Wouldn't that retain all of your skills and such...minus whatever XP it would cost to cast such an epic spell of course...but assuming you have been able to store a clone safely for so long and are powerful enough to do this kinda stuff, the XP should be a drop in the bucket.
Thane26425
09-13-06, 02:32 PM There are a few 2E spells like that. I don't have access to it at the moment, but the Complete Necromancer had two spells in it along these lines. The first one allow for a temporary transfer of souls between two bodies and there was a 9th level version that allowed a permanant transfer. Certain other gaming systems have spells that allow one to steal years from another aging them 2 years for every one that you lose. 2E also had potions of youth in two strenghths, though I don't know why they didn't carry that over to 3.5

As for clones, I protected one of my mage's like this. He created a coffin that acted as a preservation chamber to keep it from decaying. This was enhanced by protection from evil to keep out undead and it had a lining of lead to hinder scrying. It was designed with a complex lock that could be released from the inside. The coffin with clone inside was hidden in a chamber underground in the tower. This chamber was only accessible by dimension door, teleport, etc. This chamber had a lead lining and other protections against its being located magically. As defense were a few symbols and a stone golem, along with a special version of the Alarm spell that would alert the mage to any intrusion no matter where he was. The coffin itself was hidden inside the chamber, which contained many secret doors, all of which were trapped. Also included in this chamber were the grimoires, his primary spellbooks.

I'm sure there will be comments about how to get around all of this, but I have always believed that if one person can make a thing, another can break it, which is why my mage had that alarm feature so that even if they did manage to destroy the clone, they'd have him to deal with.
Terraneaux
09-13-06, 02:36 PM There is also a spell in the Book of Vile Darkness that lets you steal 'life energy' from other people to extend your lifespan.

As far as I know there is no 'lifespan of the soul' idea in DnD; it's just that resurrection and raise spells bring you back to your body as it was before you died, if you died of old age, you die again because you were terminally infirm. Of course, that's not actually how it works, the spells mysteriously fail, but not at the maximum age of the creature, *only if they died of 'natural' causes*

So a clone should really work. And an epic-level resurrection spell should bring you back as a young adult.
Fangthane
09-13-06, 04:46 PM The potion was Longevity: Reduce physical age by 1d12 years with 1% comulative chance fail and restore all previously removed aging. Price was 1000gp. I love 1st edition.
RogerWilco
09-13-06, 04:54 PM check out the spell statis clone too (ninth level). It's in one of the FR books.
Raise Dead

Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.
The usual spells don't work in old age, like raise dead and ressurection. There seems to be no such limit on clone.
Wind of Darkness
09-13-06, 05:00 PM I'm not sure about bringing people back after they die of old age, but...

I had a character concept once which involved a guy having clone cast on him at a young age. The clone was preserved in a hidden location and he went on with his life and sort of forgot about it. Eventually he got killed, entered his clone (a clone of him as a child), and started life over again. There was a lot more to it of course. Anyway, I thought it was cool.
Thane26425
09-13-06, 05:57 PM The potion was Longevity: Reduce physical age by 1d12 years with 1% comulative chance fail and restore all previously removed aging. Price was 1000gp. I love 1st edition.

There was also a lesser potion that removed like 1d4 years without the chance of failure.

1st ed. also had monster that dealt aging damage, ghosts and spectres among them. Some did from 10 to 40 years with a touch, easily fatal for a human.
Mysticaloctopus
09-13-06, 06:08 PM Who wants to live forever- Queen.

Yes, but then Princes of the Universe is about the (almost) immortal highlander. Good into, but I think it lacks... thingy.

No magic makes you truly immortal, as swords end most of that, but Lichdom is a good second best.

It won't work. The reason for that is the same reason that Resurrection magic won't work at that point. The soul ages along with the body (even with creatures with Timeless Body) and the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body. Therefore, once this point has been reached, you cannot bring the soul back, irregardless of how young the body is that you're trying to use.

I don't remember where from, but I'm sure this is official. I've never needed to, but I'd choose to enforce the soul-lifetime rule in most cases. The exception is, in my opinion, Reincarnation. If you're reborn as a creature with a longer lifespan, such as human to elf, I'd allow for the longer lifespan, though a crature with a shorter one (say a hawk) would live as long as a human, just to make the spell fairer. I'd also change the age of the body you come back in to match your old ones age-percent, so if you were a human at age 35 (50% of the way through life), you'd come back as an elf halfway through its base lifespan.

Aside from Reincarnation, I'd make soul-life spent in a physical body (outside the astral plane) the rule on if you can come back.
Ra-Tiel
09-13-06, 07:18 PM What about researching a spell that would allow you to permenantly posess another being, then using that spell on the clone you stored...kinda like a brain/soul transplant? Wouldn't that retain all of your skills and such...minus whatever XP it would cost to cast such an epic spell of course...but assuming you have been able to store a clone safely for so long and are powerful enough to do this kinda stuff, the XP should be a drop in the bucket.
You mean, perhaps, something like this here (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm)? ;)
Seraphine_Harmonium
09-13-06, 08:19 PM Or you just use the king-of-cheese, the ultimate-munchkin's-wet-dream, the most-stupidly-overpowered-item-so-far-devised-by-WotC, the thought bottle. :bored:

Before you die, just put your XPs into the bottle and kill yourself. When you awaken in your clone, go to the bottle and use it to gain your XPs back. Now you have the same amount of XPs as before, minus the cost of 500 to store your XPs. Meh... :nonono:

Or you just take this (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) feat once in a while. :P
That's not really what I meant. I did not mean that you could just go and get all your XPs back, I just meant that by leaving behind a journal of your life after clone-creation your clone-self could read it and gain a wisdom bonus, or maybe just a little XP boost. Certainly not all of it, I would put the absolute max on the amount you could gain by this means at 1 level-up.

Another thing you could do would be to have the journal contain collected knowledge and have the clone have the old wizard's full complement of knowledge ranks. I would be hesitant to say a straigt INT bonus because you wouldn't necessarily learn reasoning and quick thinking.

Now, what I said about the spellbook, this would mean that every time the wizard gains access to a new level of spells, they have access to as many as the old wizard had when he died. They do not get any more spells per day than normal, they just know an unusually large number of spells. Spells of levels beyond his casting ability would still be useless until he reaches the appropriate level.

It gives the clone a rather considerable advantage over those of his own level, but if he were to travel with the companions of the wizard, they would still most likely far outstrip him in power.
MareltEkiran
09-13-06, 10:07 PM Source please.

I'll confess that it isn't a core book. The core books simply state that no form of Resurrection magic works on a character who died of old age. Complete Divine explains why that is:

"Characters who die of old age can't come back from the dead, even with true resurrection, wish or miracle spells. Their souls have grown too fragile to survive the trip back into the body."

- Complete Divine, page 130.

If you think of it, it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, druids and monks would become immortal when they obtain the timeless body feat. If old age death was solely dependant on the aging of the body, then they wouldn't die. Yet, in both cases, it is still specifically stated that the character still dies when his or her time is up.
If this wasn't the case, then monks and druids would just keep raking up aging bonusses without dying or getting fragile bodies and keep gaining experience when all other characters have grown too old for that. Any D&D world would then be governed by millenia old druids and monks that have obtained godlike levels.
Senko
09-14-06, 01:09 AM Which is why all the magic aging spells are such fun (1st ed, arcana unearthed, complete necromancer, research). If you are a powerful enough mage there are a lot of options to extend your lifespan to infinity (I've seen actually immortality spells, 9th level required a check or your physical deteriation continued). I'd be inclined to allow clone to work and if you want to get round the complete divine go wtih the coup degra afterall if you were alive enough to kill yourself then your alive enough to enter the clone. I've never heard of this thought bottle though.
Izzak
09-15-06, 12:35 AM I want to say its from CAr

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 09-12-06, 10:46 PM	I'm intrigued by the spell clone. What are its limits? For example, suppose you're a human wizard. You're thirty years old. You make a clone of yourself or two, and preserve the clone with gentle repose, quintessence, unguent of timelessness, or whatever. At 70 + 2d20 years, you die at maximum age. Can you go into your clone, which is based on you as a 30-year old?
Seraphine_Harmonium 09-13-06, 12:35 AM	I'm intrigued by the spell clone. What are its limits? For example, suppose you're a human wizard. You're thirty years old. You make a clone of yourself or two, and preserve the clone with gentle repose, quintessence, unguent of timelessness, or whatever. At 70 + 2d20 years, you die at maximum age. Can you go into your clone, which is based on you as a 30-year old? I'd have to check the rules on that, but I'd say yes. however, the clone would only have the experience level and power the wizard had at the time the clone was made. If the wizard had advanced significantly since then, upon death he would return to life, younger but considerably less powerful than when he left it. Some of this can be overcome by leaving behind the spellbook and journals relating the wisdom the wizard acquired after the fact, resulting in a young wizard with wisdom beyond his years, and a spellbook beyond his ability. They could probably learn more easily the second time around, though.
Izzak 09-13-06, 12:59 AM	I would say yes to my memory of the spell
Thane26425 09-13-06, 01:09 AM	The first paragraph of the spell description says: "If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails." I suppose that one could have oneself killed prior to natural death and perhaps that would work, the soul entering a clone of whatever age the clone was created.
Iver Gearsham 09-13-06, 01:23 AM	Get a hair or flesh sample from a high level druid make a Simulacrum (7th level spell) of the druid. Then make a Transmutation school spell (9th level to Epic level) to remake you into your former Race and Gender. Kill yourself when old and decrepit with orders to the Simulacrum to Reincarnate you. From then on eternity is yours enjoy!
epifreak 09-13-06, 03:06 AM	Of course, if one is powerful enough to create a clone, why would one not just use magic to prolong one's natural life indefinitely?
guru7892 09-13-06, 03:15 AM	Of course, if one is powerful enough to create a clone, why would one not just use magic to prolong one's natural life indefinitely? because they dont have a spell for that... sadly.
MareltEkiran 09-13-06, 03:21 AM	It won't work. The reason for that is the same reason that Resurrection magic won't work at that point. The soul ages along with the body (even with creatures with Timeless Body) and the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body. Therefore, once this point has been reached, you cannot bring the soul back, irregardless of how young the body is that you're trying to use.
Zardnaar 09-13-06, 03:55 AM	Who wants to live forever- Queen. Just use planeshift and go to the Astral plane. If you're powerful enough to get there you should be able to survive. Hint cut a deal with the Githyanki.
Ra-Tiel 09-13-06, 04:40 AM	[...] Some of this can be overcome by leaving behind the spellbook and journals relating the wisdom the wizard acquired after the fact, resulting in a young wizard with wisdom beyond his years, and a spellbook beyond his ability. They could probably learn more easily the second time around, though. Or you just use the king-of-cheese, the ultimate-munchkin's-wet-dream, the most-stupidly-overpowered-item-so-far-devised-by-WotC, the thought bottle. :bored: Before you die, just put your XPs into the bottle and kill yourself. When you awaken in your clone, go to the bottle and use it to gain your XPs back. Now you have the same amount of XPs as before, minus the cost of 500 to store your XPs. Meh... :nonono: Who wants to live forever- Queen. Just use planeshift and go to the Astral plane. If you're powerful enough to get there you should be able to survive. Hint cut a deal with the Githyanki. Or you just take this (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) feat once in a while. :P
Yaeri 09-13-06, 05:35 AM	If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails. This suggests that someone who has died of old age can not be returned to life via the means of a clone. Ressurection and other life-returning spells, all say the same thing, so this is a general rule in D&D.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 05:51 AM	the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body. Source please.
Pindar 09-13-06, 08:13 AM	I can't remember ever seeing a rule about soul age preventing being brought back. I also don't know why powerful characters seeking immortality don't combine reincarnation and a wish or miracle. You lose a level every once in a while but come back in a young adult body.
Yaeri 09-13-06, 09:02 AM	I can't remember ever seeing a rule about soul age preventing being brought back. Me neither. Although all the bringing-back-to-life spells explicitly state that they can't bring back someone who died of old age, I don't think I've ever seen a general rule that says something about the age of ones soul. Never the less, the restrictions on those spells give me the impression that such a thing is the intent of the game. At the very least, it closes a few abusable loopholes. Stacking countless age category mental stat bonuses through reincarnation for example.
Mufflon 09-13-06, 11:03 AM	because they dont have a spell for that... sadly. Indeed they do! Well in FR, atleast. It's an Epic spell called Ioulam's Longevity, it detailed in the PGtF. In short it kills a lot of creatures and prolongs your current age category.
MadMoly 09-13-06, 11:22 AM	If memory serves, all the raising spells say they can't raise characters that died of old age. Since this is the case, the clone trick as well as anyother immortality plan can be solved by coup de gracing yourself with a dagger once you believe you are too old to be fairly useful. Shortly after Vulnerable infact. And at -6 CON, your HP should be low enough to drop yourself. Problem solved, you never reach the point of dieing of old age. MadMoly
True Cavalier 09-13-06, 11:23 AM	There already are so many ways to extend your lifespan by the rules that I would definetely allow Clone to work like that... ...I mean, if you can get in the trouble of storing your clone for 70 years, you deserve it :P
EBrightblade 09-13-06, 12:17 PM	What about researching a spell that would allow you to permenantly posess another being, then using that spell on the clone you stored...kinda like a brain/soul transplant? Wouldn't that retain all of your skills and such...minus whatever XP it would cost to cast such an epic spell of course...but assuming you have been able to store a clone safely for so long and are powerful enough to do this kinda stuff, the XP should be a drop in the bucket.
Thane26425 09-13-06, 02:32 PM	There are a few 2E spells like that. I don't have access to it at the moment, but the Complete Necromancer had two spells in it along these lines. The first one allow for a temporary transfer of souls between two bodies and there was a 9th level version that allowed a permanant transfer. Certain other gaming systems have spells that allow one to steal years from another aging them 2 years for every one that you lose. 2E also had potions of youth in two strenghths, though I don't know why they didn't carry that over to 3.5 As for clones, I protected one of my mage's like this. He created a coffin that acted as a preservation chamber to keep it from decaying. This was enhanced by protection from evil to keep out undead and it had a lining of lead to hinder scrying. It was designed with a complex lock that could be released from the inside. The coffin with clone inside was hidden in a chamber underground in the tower. This chamber was only accessible by dimension door, teleport, etc. This chamber had a lead lining and other protections against its being located magically. As defense were a few symbols and a stone golem, along with a special version of the Alarm spell that would alert the mage to any intrusion no matter where he was. The coffin itself was hidden inside the chamber, which contained many secret doors, all of which were trapped. Also included in this chamber were the grimoires, his primary spellbooks. I'm sure there will be comments about how to get around all of this, but I have always believed that if one person can make a thing, another can break it, which is why my mage had that alarm feature so that even if they did manage to destroy the clone, they'd have him to deal with.
Terraneaux 09-13-06, 02:36 PM	There is also a spell in the Book of Vile Darkness that lets you steal 'life energy' from other people to extend your lifespan. As far as I know there is no 'lifespan of the soul' idea in DnD; it's just that resurrection and raise spells bring you back to your body as it was before you died, if you died of old age, you die again because you were terminally infirm. Of course, that's not actually how it works, the spells mysteriously fail, but not at the maximum age of the creature, only if they died of 'natural' causes So a clone should really work. And an epic-level resurrection spell should bring you back as a young adult.
Fangthane 09-13-06, 04:46 PM	The potion was Longevity: Reduce physical age by 1d12 years with 1% comulative chance fail and restore all previously removed aging. Price was 1000gp. I love 1st edition.
RogerWilco 09-13-06, 04:54 PM	check out the spell statis clone too (ninth level). It's in one of the FR books. Raise Dead Conjuration (Healing) Level: Clr 5 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw. Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level. A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell. A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age. The usual spells don't work in old age, like raise dead and ressurection. There seems to be no such limit on clone.
Wind of Darkness 09-13-06, 05:00 PM	I'm not sure about bringing people back after they die of old age, but... I had a character concept once which involved a guy having clone cast on him at a young age. The clone was preserved in a hidden location and he went on with his life and sort of forgot about it. Eventually he got killed, entered his clone (a clone of him as a child), and started life over again. There was a lot more to it of course. Anyway, I thought it was cool.
Thane26425 09-13-06, 05:57 PM	The potion was Longevity: Reduce physical age by 1d12 years with 1% comulative chance fail and restore all previously removed aging. Price was 1000gp. I love 1st edition. There was also a lesser potion that removed like 1d4 years without the chance of failure. 1st ed. also had monster that dealt aging damage, ghosts and spectres among them. Some did from 10 to 40 years with a touch, easily fatal for a human.
Mysticaloctopus 09-13-06, 06:08 PM	Who wants to live forever- Queen. Yes, but then Princes of the Universe is about the (almost) immortal highlander. Good into, but I think it lacks... thingy. No magic makes you truly immortal, as swords end most of that, but Lichdom is a good second best. It won't work. The reason for that is the same reason that Resurrection magic won't work at that point. The soul ages along with the body (even with creatures with Timeless Body) and the maximum lifespan is actually the maximum lifespan of the soul. It is stated that when you die of old age, the soul has become too fragile to exist in a body. Therefore, once this point has been reached, you cannot bring the soul back, irregardless of how young the body is that you're trying to use. I don't remember where from, but I'm sure this is official. I've never needed to, but I'd choose to enforce the soul-lifetime rule in most cases. The exception is, in my opinion, Reincarnation. If you're reborn as a creature with a longer lifespan, such as human to elf, I'd allow for the longer lifespan, though a crature with a shorter one (say a hawk) would live as long as a human, just to make the spell fairer. I'd also change the age of the body you come back in to match your old ones age-percent, so if you were a human at age 35 (50% of the way through life), you'd come back as an elf halfway through its base lifespan. Aside from Reincarnation, I'd make soul-life spent in a physical body (outside the astral plane) the rule on if you can come back.
Ra-Tiel 09-13-06, 07:18 PM	What about researching a spell that would allow you to permenantly posess another being, then using that spell on the clone you stored...kinda like a brain/soul transplant? Wouldn't that retain all of your skills and such...minus whatever XP it would cost to cast such an epic spell of course...but assuming you have been able to store a clone safely for so long and are powerful enough to do this kinda stuff, the XP should be a drop in the bucket. You mean, perhaps, something like this here (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm)? ;)
Seraphine_Harmonium 09-13-06, 08:19 PM	Or you just use the king-of-cheese, the ultimate-munchkin's-wet-dream, the most-stupidly-overpowered-item-so-far-devised-by-WotC, the thought bottle. :bored: Before you die, just put your XPs into the bottle and kill yourself. When you awaken in your clone, go to the bottle and use it to gain your XPs back. Now you have the same amount of XPs as before, minus the cost of 500 to store your XPs. Meh... :nonono: Or you just take this (http://d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan) feat once in a while. :P That's not really what I meant. I did not mean that you could just go and get all your XPs back, I just meant that by leaving behind a journal of your life after clone-creation your clone-self could read it and gain a wisdom bonus, or maybe just a little XP boost. Certainly not all of it, I would put the absolute max on the amount you could gain by this means at 1 level-up. Another thing you could do would be to have the journal contain collected knowledge and have the clone have the old wizard's full complement of knowledge ranks. I would be hesitant to say a straigt INT bonus because you wouldn't necessarily learn reasoning and quick thinking. Now, what I said about the spellbook, this would mean that every time the wizard gains access to a new level of spells, they have access to as many as the old wizard had when he died. They do not get any more spells per day than normal, they just know an unusually large number of spells. Spells of levels beyond his casting ability would still be useless until he reaches the appropriate level. It gives the clone a rather considerable advantage over those of his own level, but if he were to travel with the companions of the wizard, they would still most likely far outstrip him in power.
MareltEkiran 09-13-06, 10:07 PM	Source please. I'll confess that it isn't a core book. The core books simply state that no form of Resurrection magic works on a character who died of old age. Complete Divine explains why that is: "Characters who die of old age can't come back from the dead, even with true resurrection, wish or miracle spells. Their souls have grown too fragile to survive the trip back into the body." - Complete Divine, page 130. If you think of it, it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, druids and monks would become immortal when they obtain the timeless body feat. If old age death was solely dependant on the aging of the body, then they wouldn't die. Yet, in both cases, it is still specifically stated that the character still dies when his or her time is up. If this wasn't the case, then monks and druids would just keep raking up aging bonusses without dying or getting fragile bodies and keep gaining experience when all other characters have grown too old for that. Any D&D world would then be governed by millenia old druids and monks that have obtained godlike levels.
Senko 09-14-06, 01:09 AM	Which is why all the magic aging spells are such fun (1st ed, arcana unearthed, complete necromancer, research). If you are a powerful enough mage there are a lot of options to extend your lifespan to infinity (I've seen actually immortality spells, 9th level required a check or your physical deteriation continued). I'd be inclined to allow clone to work and if you want to get round the complete divine go wtih the coup degra afterall if you were alive enough to kill yourself then your alive enough to enter the clone. I've never heard of this thought bottle though.
Izzak 09-15-06, 12:35 AM	I want to say its from CAr