Cloud(s) of Knives [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cloud(s) of Knives [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pandaemoni
05-16-06, 03:07 PM I was reading the Cloud of Knives spell in the PHBII and was wondering: Could a sorcerer or wizard cast the spell multiple times so as to throw more than one knife per round? Throwing a knife is a free action, according to the spell description, so throwing three or four per round shouldn't be a great issue. Nothing in the spell forbids having multiple clouds in effect at once , but (to me) it seems like it could be said to violate the spirit of the spell since its effects seem to stack so well.

On balance, I'd say, "yes, multiple clouds are fine," but I was wondering what others might think.
Sian_Son_of_Cune
05-16-06, 03:37 PM No you cannot because you can only do 1 free/immediate action a round. Except for maybe speaking. Though you could have more than 1 cloud up, but it would do you little good.
KirkBb
05-16-06, 03:45 PM Thats incorrect, you may get any number of free/ immediate actions per round, its the swift action that I believe you are thinking of.
Pandaemoni
05-16-06, 03:47 PM No you cannot because you can only do 1 free/immediate action a round. Except for maybe speaking. Though you could have more than 1 cloud up, but it would do you little good.

You can only do one swift or immediate action per round. You can do as many free actions as your DM allows, per the RAW as I understand it.
meatrace
05-16-06, 04:08 PM You can only do one swift or immediate action per round. You can do as many free actions as your DM allows, per the RAW as I understand it.
you are correct, sir.
you get infinite free actions per round, such as blinking your eyes or yelling a command to a friend, within reason.
you get one swift action per round, which can only be taken on your turn
an immediate action takes place on your turn or not, as a reaction usually, and uses your swift action for the round.
Esponer
05-16-06, 04:16 PM an immediate action takes place on your turn or not, as a reaction usually, and uses your swift action for the round.

Uses your swift action for the next round, I feel obliged to clarify. Other than that, not having the PHB II, I can't really contribute to this thread; apologies to the original poster. I will affirm in support that free actions have no formal limit on use during your turn.
Warmage-in-Onley
05-16-06, 05:45 PM An immediate action taken in your turn counts as a swift action for that turn, but it does NOT void any actions in your next turn (the voiding is done by immediate actions taken when it is not your turn).
Esponer
05-16-06, 05:54 PM An immediate action taken in your turn counts as a swift action for that turn, but it does NOT void any actions in your next turn (the voiding is done by immediate actions taken when it is not your turn).

If you take an immediate action in your turn, surely you're taking a swift action? An immediate action by its nature is an action taken when it isn't your turn, and it costs you the swift action you'd normally be granted on your next turn.
Pandaemoni
05-16-06, 07:45 PM In light of the fact that "throwing" such a knife is expressly a free action (an the authors of the PHBII surely understood teh distinction between a free action and a swift action) and the lack of an express prohibition against it, I assume the consensus is that multiple Clouds of Knives allow multiple attacks per turn?

The more I think about it the less it troubles me (especially since you can't attack until the round after you cast the spell...so it's hard for the PCs to abuse. In essence having two of the clouds up is not much more powerful than a having a single flaming sphere.
Warmage-in-Onley
05-16-06, 11:14 PM If you take an immediate action in your turn, surely you're taking a swift action? An immediate action by its nature is an action taken when it isn't your turn, and it costs you the swift action you'd normally be granted on your next turn.
I'm just pointing out the difference in using the immediate action in your turn vs. when it's not your turn. Its nature is that it can be cast at anytime, including your own turn.
Vaelan
05-17-06, 02:14 AM I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves.
Feroz
05-17-06, 08:32 AM I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves.

There's nothing that stacks though, they're seperate effects. It'd be like having two flaming spheres going. If you have them both in the same square with a creature, they have to make 2 ref saves vs 2d6 fire damage each, not just 1 save vs 2d6 fire damage.
Warmage-in-Onley
05-17-06, 08:34 AM I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves.
Ah, but damage from spells does stack, for instance a quickened fireball followed by another fireball. I don't see why 2 Cloud of Knives spells wouldn't work.
WombleHunter
05-17-06, 08:50 AM The durations would overlap, and not stack.
Pandaemoni
05-17-06, 10:05 AM The durations would overlap, and not stack.

The durations would overlap, though the real issue is whether you could "throw" multiple knives per round by having more than one Cloud active. Since launching a knife is a free action (rather than a swift action), assuming one caster could have two or more active Clouds at one time, it seems like one could.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pandaemoni 05-16-06, 03:07 PM	I was reading the Cloud of Knives spell in the PHBII and was wondering: Could a sorcerer or wizard cast the spell multiple times so as to throw more than one knife per round? Throwing a knife is a free action, according to the spell description, so throwing three or four per round shouldn't be a great issue. Nothing in the spell forbids having multiple clouds in effect at once , but (to me) it seems like it could be said to violate the spirit of the spell since its effects seem to stack so well. On balance, I'd say, "yes, multiple clouds are fine," but I was wondering what others might think.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-16-06, 03:37 PM	No you cannot because you can only do 1 free/immediate action a round. Except for maybe speaking. Though you could have more than 1 cloud up, but it would do you little good.
KirkBb 05-16-06, 03:45 PM	Thats incorrect, you may get any number of free/ immediate actions per round, its the swift action that I believe you are thinking of.
Pandaemoni 05-16-06, 03:47 PM	No you cannot because you can only do 1 free/immediate action a round. Except for maybe speaking. Though you could have more than 1 cloud up, but it would do you little good. You can only do one swift or immediate action per round. You can do as many free actions as your DM allows, per the RAW as I understand it.
meatrace 05-16-06, 04:08 PM	You can only do one swift or immediate action per round. You can do as many free actions as your DM allows, per the RAW as I understand it. you are correct, sir. you get infinite free actions per round, such as blinking your eyes or yelling a command to a friend, within reason. you get one swift action per round, which can only be taken on your turn an immediate action takes place on your turn or not, as a reaction usually, and uses your swift action for the round.
Esponer 05-16-06, 04:16 PM	an immediate action takes place on your turn or not, as a reaction usually, and uses your swift action for the round. Uses your swift action for the next round, I feel obliged to clarify. Other than that, not having the PHB II, I can't really contribute to this thread; apologies to the original poster. I will affirm in support that free actions have no formal limit on use during your turn.
Warmage-in-Onley 05-16-06, 05:45 PM	An immediate action taken in your turn counts as a swift action for that turn, but it does NOT void any actions in your next turn (the voiding is done by immediate actions taken when it is not your turn).
Esponer 05-16-06, 05:54 PM	An immediate action taken in your turn counts as a swift action for that turn, but it does NOT void any actions in your next turn (the voiding is done by immediate actions taken when it is not your turn). If you take an immediate action in your turn, surely you're taking a swift action? An immediate action by its nature is an action taken when it isn't your turn, and it costs you the swift action you'd normally be granted on your next turn.
Pandaemoni 05-16-06, 07:45 PM	In light of the fact that "throwing" such a knife is expressly a free action (an the authors of the PHBII surely understood teh distinction between a free action and a swift action) and the lack of an express prohibition against it, I assume the consensus is that multiple Clouds of Knives allow multiple attacks per turn? The more I think about it the less it troubles me (especially since you can't attack until the round after you cast the spell...so it's hard for the PCs to abuse. In essence having two of the clouds up is not much more powerful than a having a single flaming sphere.
Warmage-in-Onley 05-16-06, 11:14 PM	If you take an immediate action in your turn, surely you're taking a swift action? An immediate action by its nature is an action taken when it isn't your turn, and it costs you the swift action you'd normally be granted on your next turn. I'm just pointing out the difference in using the immediate action in your turn vs. when it's not your turn. Its nature is that it can be cast at anytime, including your own turn.
Vaelan 05-17-06, 02:14 AM	I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves.
Feroz 05-17-06, 08:32 AM	I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves. There's nothing that stacks though, they're seperate effects. It'd be like having two flaming spheres going. If you have them both in the same square with a creature, they have to make 2 ref saves vs 2d6 fire damage each, not just 1 save vs 2d6 fire damage.
Warmage-in-Onley 05-17-06, 08:34 AM	I'd say yes, but the rules state that spells tend to not stack with prior castings of themselves. Ah, but damage from spells does stack, for instance a quickened fireball followed by another fireball. I don't see why 2 Cloud of Knives spells wouldn't work.
WombleHunter 05-17-06, 08:50 AM	The durations would overlap, and not stack.
Pandaemoni 05-17-06, 10:05 AM	The durations would overlap, and not stack. The durations would overlap, though the real issue is whether you could "throw" multiple knives per round by having more than one Cloud active. Since launching a knife is a free action (rather than a swift action), assuming one caster could have two or more active Clouds at one time, it seems like one could.