Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 03-08-07, 12:54 PM	I seek justification. A centipede swarm is 9 HD, but is composed of diminutive creatures under 2 HD. Swarms make saves as a single creature Cloudkill would kill all single centipedes in its area (being under 3 HD) Cloudkill, by RAW, does not kill the 9HD swarm, even if the swarm is completely encompassed by the gaseous death. Instead, it just does 1.5 x 1d4 Constitution damage. This would kill it in 2-3 rounds anyway, but the swarm is still effective until then Something doesn't seem right. I mean, poisonous gases are used all the time against insects, even swarms of insects, IRL. Is there a rule I'm missing, or are swarms automagically just that tough?
Emeramber 03-08-07, 01:38 PM	Sadly, that is the case as far as I know. The same problem, magnified, occurs with mobs, which is why we don't use mob rules. A dozen peasants band together and become immune to fireballs? Well, not immune, but probably not taken down.
Seeker95 03-08-07, 02:04 PM	Your logic is solid. But the rules, for consistency, treat a swarm as a single entity at all times. This is one circumstance under which consistency meets logic in a manner that is completely not.
smeagol_lied 03-08-07, 02:09 PM	Tis partially why swarms are so much tougher than an idividual insect.
Vegepygmy 03-08-07, 02:11 PM	The same problem crops up with regard to targets of the swarm that have DR. Say, for example, that you have an afflicted lycanthrope (DR 5/silver) in the middle of a swarm that deals 2d6 damage per round. Even though no individual member of the swarm could possibly deal any damage to the lycanthrope, as a swarm they can somehow overcome its DR. I think the better approach is to treat the swarm rules as guidelines rather than absolutes, and let cloudkill wipe them out in a single round.
TygerTyger 03-08-07, 03:28 PM	Yup, good old rule zero. If it just makes sense, then it should be at least discussed with the DM.
Osedox 03-08-07, 05:14 PM	Swarms take 150% damage from area affect spells, so if your Dm is nice he might say the ability damage is multiplied as well so they (the swarm) might not last too long anyways.
cwslyclgh 03-08-07, 08:30 PM	Swarms take 150% damage from area affect spells, so if your Dm is nice he might say the ability damage is multiplied as well so they (the swarm) might not last too long anyways. I would be inclined to go this route.
malignor 03-13-07, 01:19 PM	Hence the 1.5 x 1d4 con damage I already wrote. Con damage is still damage.
ArcTan 03-13-07, 02:19 PM	The same problem crops up with regard to targets of the swarm that have DR. Say, for example, that you have an afflicted lycanthrope (DR 5/silver) in the middle of a swarm that deals 2d6 damage per round. Even though no individual member of the swarm could possibly deal any damage to the lycanthrope, as a swarm they can somehow overcome its DR. Well, *that* makes sense to me in a way that swarms being immune to cloudkill doesn't. Isn't the point of swarms and mobs to have a way that the whole town really can kill a werewolf if they all swarm over him at once, grabbing and clawing?
Osedox 03-13-07, 03:01 PM	My bad, must have missed that at a glance.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 04:07 PM	Isn't the point of swarms and mobs to have a way that the whole town really can kill a werewolf if they all swarm over him at once, grabbing and clawing?That may be the "point" of swarms and mobs, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense. If you can't hurt me by "grabbing and clawing," why should you be able to hurt me by "grabbing and clawing" me a lot?
ArcTan 03-13-07, 05:58 PM	That may be the "point" of swarms and mobs, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense. If you can't hurt me by "grabbing and clawing," why should you be able to hurt me by "grabbing and clawing" me a lot? A single army ant isn't capable of doing even one HP of damage to me. That doesn't mean a whole colony of army ants isn't capable of stripping me to the bone.
Vegepygmy 03-13-07, 06:47 PM	A single army ant isn't capable of doing even one HP of damage to me.You don't have HP, so that's a :censored: argument.
Kursk 03-13-07, 06:58 PM	By RAW that is true. But that's one reason I never implemented the swarm rules when 3.5 came out...
ArcTan 03-13-07, 06:59 PM	You don't have HP, so that's a :censored: argument. Oh, come on. Fine -- in D&D terms, a single ant isn't capable of doing even one HP to a 1st-level Commoner. The equivalent of an ant bite is no HP of damage of all. That doesn't mean you can't stat up ant swarms that kill people. The point is that adding up lots of little damage, if you do it quickly enough, adds up to big damage. In real life, several teeny tiny projectiles hitting you *at the same time* is the same amount of force as one big projectile hitting you at once. The whole "DR makes lots of little attacks weaker than one big attack" should only apply to little attacks that are separated enough that they don't build on each other.
Judging Eagle 03-13-07, 07:07 PM	A single army ant isn't capable of doing even one HP of damage to me. That doesn't mean a whole colony of army ants isn't capable of stripping me to the bone. Army ants don't work that way. At all. They don't even eat the lizards or birds that they kill on their forays from their mobile colonies. The Marabunta or army of ants that cover dozens of square meters are products of fiction based on poor research practices and have been disproven. The ants don't go around killing and eating anything other than insects and certain plants; they do however kill stuff like lizards or snakes or things that don't get out of the way. Those animals are eaten by scavenging birds. Giving rise to the 'stripped to the bone' myth.
ArcTan 03-13-07, 07:31 PM	Army ants don't work that way. At all. They don't even eat the lizards or birds that they kill on their forays from their mobile colonies. The Marabunta or army of ants that cover dozens of square meters are products of fiction based on poor research practices and have been disproven. The ants don't go around killing and eating anything other than insects and certain plants; they do however kill stuff like lizards or snakes or things that don't get out of the way. Those animals are eaten by scavenging birds. Giving rise to the 'stripped to the bone' myth. Fair enough. It is still the case that a dozen animals or people swarming over somebody will kill them more easily than each of those individual animals or people fighting him one by one.
malignor 03-13-07, 07:37 PM	A single housecat can't break a boulder up. What if you have a hundred housecats? You have alot of declawed, toothless cats, and a scratched up (but still whole) boulder.
cwslyclgh 03-13-07, 07:42 PM	actually, assuming a kitten swarm deals at least 2d6 damage, the kittens could eventualy destory the boulder (hardness 8) by the rules of the game. (actualy I am not 100% positive about this, can swarms damage objects?)
Osedox 03-13-07, 07:57 PM	Oh, come on. Fine -- in D&D terms, a single ant isn't capable of doing even one HP to a 1st-level Commoner. The equivalent of an ant bite is no HP of damage of all.I thought all sucessful attacks did 1 point of damage min? For instance enen a cat with 1d2-4 claws still does 1 point of damage no matter what he rolls. You certianly cant do negative damage.
Willie the Duck 03-13-07, 08:58 PM	I seek justification. A centipede swarm is 9 HD, but is composed of diminutive creatures under 2 HD. Swarms make saves as a single creature Cloudkill would kill all single centipedes in its area (being under 3 HD) Cloudkill, by RAW, does not kill the 9HD swarm, even if the swarm is completely encompassed by the gaseous death. Instead, it just does 1.5 x 1d4 Constitution damage. This would kill it in 2-3 rounds anyway, but the swarm is still effective until then Something doesn't seem right. I mean, poisonous gases are used all the time against insects, even swarms of insects, IRL. Is there a rule I'm missing, or are swarms automagically just that tough? This isn't that far out of reality. If you've ever seen insects when the fumagators start pumping in the gas, there are a few stragglers that manage to last for seemingly forever before going down. It doesn't make sense, since they have the same nerves and haemolymph as all their brethren, yet somehow they do. Likewise, some of your swarm is going to get a few rounds of chomping before they notice that they're dead.
ArcTan 03-14-07, 09:49 AM	I thought all sucessful attacks did 1 point of damage min? For instance enen a cat with 1d2-4 claws still does 1 point of damage no matter what he rolls. You certianly cant do negative damage. Well, yes. This is a problem with the rules, you see. It's because of this nonsense that we get results like a small kitten being able to kill a grown man with little effort.
ArcTan 03-14-07, 09:50 AM	A single housecat can't break a boulder up. What if you have a hundred housecats? You have alot of declawed, toothless cats, and a scratched up (but still whole) boulder. Yes, but there's a middle ground, you see. One angry person can't destroy a house, while a mob of angry people can do so easily (I've seen tapes). As someone noted, even if the stuff about army ants stripping animals to the bone is false, they *do* kill animals substantially larger than they are, that a single ant couldn't.
ArcTan 03-14-07, 09:53 AM	This isn't that far out of reality. If you've ever seen insects when the fumagators start pumping in the gas, there are a few stragglers that manage to last for seemingly forever before going down. It doesn't make sense, since they have the same nerves and haemolymph as all their brethren, yet somehow they do. Likewise, some of your swarm is going to get a few rounds of chomping before they notice that they're dead. Yeah -- it's like half-lives of radioactive elements. It works out that way whenever you have a large number of things and only X chance per Y time that they'll die/decay. I don't, per se, have a problem with cloudkill, because cloudkill has scaling effects that just make the spell take longer to work. I do have a problem with swarms and mobs being able to ignore certain HD-based spells entirely -- for example, a mob of 1st-level commoners becoming completely immune to sleep and having a very high chance of saving against color spray, which can only stun them.
malignor 03-14-07, 11:19 AM	Yes, but there's a middle ground, you see. One angry person can't destroy a house, while a mob of angry people can do so easily (I've seen tapes). As someone noted, even if the stuff about army ants stripping animals to the bone is false, they *do* kill animals substantially larger than they are, that a single ant couldn't.Ahh, but you're talking about reality, understand that a single army ant can still give a slightly painful bite. A thousand painful bites on your arm would result in a damaged arm. Just like a hundred people kicking at walls will eventually bring it down. The reason why is because one attack has some effect. Alot of small somethings equals a bigger something. On the other side, a hundred people punching a boulder for 1 minute will result in nothing but a boulder covered in blood flecks and skin, and a crowd of people with damaged fists. The reason why is hardness which is what I was getting at. A boulder is just too hard to damage with natural weapons, unless you're very big and strong or have some kind of special strike (enough to bypass the hardness). Lots and lots of attacks don't make a difference. You can shoot a tank all day long with a hundred slingshots and it will do nothing. Alot of nothing is still nothing. So I think it should be with DR. A werewolf (DR 5/silver or 10/silver) would suffers zero effect from an ant. Zero. Nada. Nothing. A million times nothing is still nothing. A human would suffer, I dunno, around 1/100th of a hitpoint sounds about right. A million times 1/100th is still gobs of damage (10 000hp!), enough to strip em down to the bone (and bone has hardness > 1, which explains why the bones are left). Imagine a skeleton. With DR 5/bludgeoning. Explain how your army ants, which strips animals down to the bone, but not past, will consume a skeleton.
Vegepygmy 03-14-07, 11:58 AM	One angry person can't destroy a house...Hogwash. It's just takes him longer. I concur with everything Malignor says above.
Kursk 03-14-07, 04:15 PM	Well, yes. This is a problem with the rules, you see. It's because of this nonsense that we get results like a small kitten being able to kill a grown man with little effort. Which is why there are DM's.
keith187 03-14-07, 05:01 PM	Well the reason why I think swarms over come DR is pretty simple. They go for the softest spots. Hundreds of ants nibbling your eyes is going to damage you DR or not, and it's the same with crawling into your ear or up your nose. A perfect example of this is in the movie Ninja Scroll. When Jubie first meets up with the guy who turns his body into stone the stone guy asks if he regrets not running away Jubie says no he was thinking about your body and how it can't be hard as rock all over. Then he throws a small throwing dagger into his eye. The swarm doesn't even have to target any part actually since theres so many of them in the swarm you can just say that some manage to get into the soft spots and deal their damage.
Judging Eagle 03-14-07, 08:29 PM	Ahh, but you're talking about reality, understand that a single army ant can still give a slightly painful bite. A thousand painful bites on your arm would result in a damaged arm. < enough to strip em down to the bone (and bone has hardness > 1, which explains why the bones are left). ... Imagine a skeleton. With DR 5/bludgeoning. Explain how your army ants, which strips animals down to the bone, but not past, will consume a skeleton. Except that ants never eat the larger animals that they kill. Only the birds and other predators that follow the ants eat and scavenge what the ants kill. Also, army ants don`t kill people normally. In movies and books perhaps. Also, people keep referring to stragglers and such that survive. Well, that`s exactly true. Why do you think that people have to use different chemicals as time passes? The bugs that are immune to a particular toxin don`t die. Yeah, exactly that, they don`t die. Due to their genetic variation, some will survive certain toxins. I`m betting the same thing happens with Cloudkill or similar effect; some or most are killed; but the hard asses stick around to breed the next generation.
gradea 03-15-07, 04:27 AM	I'd contradict the rules. Spells that effect every creature in an area under a certain number of HD, rather then a set number of HD, should hit a swarm for full effect, possibly at a large save penelty. Vulnerability used to be -10 to save or +100% damage if no save was allowed. It's now +50% damage. -5 to save seems very appropriate in cases where a fractional HD monster would get a save at all.
Yokomohoyo 03-15-07, 06:56 AM	Think about it this way, a single grain of sand cant crush you to death, but how about 1 metric Ton of sand? Same as 1 punch from a person is unlikely to kill you now what happens if 10 people start punching you? You'll end up in the hospital with a few broken bones or dead...
drunkendrake 03-15-07, 10:12 AM	Well, yes. This is a problem with the rules, you see. It's because of this nonsense that we get results like a small kitten being able to kill a grown man with little effort. That's unrealistic? You haven't seen our chickens.:D -Drake-
Vegepygmy 03-15-07, 12:10 PM	Think about it this way, a single grain of sand cant crush you to death, but how about 1 metric Ton of sand?See Malignor's post about fractional hp again. A single grain of sand weighs something, even though its weight is insignificant. So millions of grains of sand add up to a significant weight. But if a single grain of sand weighed absolutely nothing, it wouldn't matter if you were buried in a billion of them--a billion times zero is still zero. Same as 1 punch from a person is unlikely to kill you now what happens if 10 people start punching you? You'll end up in the hospital with a few broken bones or dead...Yes, but again: 1 punch from a person inflicts some amount of damage, not none whatsoever.
tarkin 03-15-07, 03:46 PM	I think the d20 swarm rules are realistic. You are making unfounded assumptions. Yes, Cloudkill against 1,000 seperate centipedes will kill them. But the whole point of a swarm is that they don't act like a bunch of indivuals. Think of the Ant example in real life, crossing a river. One ant by himself will drown. 10 ants will form a ball and cross a river. At any given time, 5 of the ants are under water, holding their breath and the other 5 are out of water. Then the ball rotates, and they change position. Similarly, in a Cloudkill, it is NOT that unreasonable for most of the centipedes to act like swarms do and gather into a protective ball. Yes, it still kills them, but it takes more time to do so. In other words, the spell provides an accurate description of what someone with knowledge of insect swarms would expect to happen.
Kursk 03-15-07, 04:10 PM	Similarly, in a Cloudkill, it is NOT that unreasonable for most of the centipedes to act like swarms do and gather into a protective ball. Yes, it still kills them, but it takes more time to do so. In other words, the spell provides an accurate description of what someone with knowledge of insect swarms would expect to happen. Have to disagree. Take a fireball and the ant example. Unless I misunderstand, if the total HP of the swarm is more than the damage of the Fireball it doesn't kill it. No time to go into a ball or what not. It should toast all the ants in the blast radius. That's why I didn't implement. Not at all realistic in this example.
ArcTan 03-15-07, 05:07 PM	Blah. Go this far and you destroy the point of swarm rules in the first place. The reason for swarm and mob rules is the idea that the very little damage and very little power of an insignificant creature *does* add up to a lot more if you pile a bunch on top of each other. For creatures' DR, anyway, rather than object hardness, I think of DR blocking a hit as taking "very little damage", not "no damage at all". (DR is, after all, sometimes described as insta-healing after being hit, or similar effects you could wear don by hitting someone *a lot*.) I don't think werewolves really are "immune" to damage -- protected, yes, but a non-silver weapon that does 4 points of damage is hitting the werewolf and harming him, just not enough to matter.
Kursk 03-15-07, 05:48 PM	Blah. Go this far and you destroy the point of swarm rules in the first place. Agreed. I just nuc it. I'd have to rewrite the rules to make them workable. Maybe later, don't have time right now.
Yokomohoyo 03-16-07, 01:53 AM	See Malignor's post about fractional hp again. A single grain of sand weighs something, even though its weight is insignificant. So millions of grains of sand add up to a significant weight. But if a single grain of sand weighed absolutely nothing, it wouldn't matter if you were buried in a billion of them--a billion times zero is still zero. Ok then grab an arrow and break it in half... Easy right? Now grab 5 of them its a little harder, now grab 10 of them. Their getting harder to break right? Now grab 50 of them... Can't break them? The reason for that is that their is strength in numbers. Yes, but again: 1 punch from a person inflicts some amount of damage, not none whatsoever. I never said it wouldnt hurt, all I said that it most likely wouldnt kill you.
Vegepygmy 03-16-07, 04:22 PM	Ok then grab an arrow and break it in half... Easy right? Now grab 5 of them its a little harder, now grab 10 of them. Their getting harder to break right? Now grab 50 of them... Can't break them? The reason for that is that their is strength in numbers.Again, that's because a single arrow has some (though very little) strength all on its own. Add up a lot of little strengths, and get a much bigger strength. But if a single arrow required no effort whatsoever to break, 50 of them would also require no effort whatsoever to break. I never said it wouldnt hurt, all I said that it most likely wouldnt kill you.I know. That's why your comments don't apply to the situation we're discussing. We're talking about something that won't be hurt at all. I don't think werewolves really are "immune" to damage -- protected, yes, but a non-silver weapon that does 4 points of damage is hitting the werewolf and harming him, just not enough to matter.I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 06:37 PM	Again, that's because a single arrow has some (though very little) strength all on its own. Add up a lot of little strengths, and get a much bigger strength. But if a single arrow required no effort whatsoever to break, 50 of them would also require no effort whatsoever to break. ...But there's no such thing. Nothing in real life is actually absolutely zero.
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-17-07, 01:37 PM	The whole point of swarm rules is so that swarms of creatures can be a legitimate threat and don't die the moment somebody casts a burning hands on them. Why is cloudkill different than casting a fireball or a burning hands or a flaming sphere? If you let cloudkill instant kill a swarm, then you'd have to let every other area spell do the exact same thing.
Kursk 03-17-07, 05:56 PM	If you let cloudkill instant kill a swarm, then you'd have to let every other area spell do the exact same thing. Which is exactly what I do.
ArcTan 03-17-07, 06:42 PM	Which is exactly what I do. Then why use swarms at all?
Kursk 03-17-07, 08:00 PM	Then why use swarms at all? The same reason I did before 3.5.