Cloudkill: Help on how it works. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cloudkill: Help on how it works. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Venator
07-10-06, 08:14 PM So it kills 3 or fewer HD creatures. Cool.

The 4 to 6 HD creatures save or die... Does this mean creatures (players) that are exactly 4th level all the way up to exactly 1 EXP short of 6th level need to save or die?

Creatures that are 6 HD or higher take con damage.

I just had a Cloudkill trap really mess up a party, and im posting here to make sure our ruling is correct.

Thanks.
Lord of Dorkness
07-10-06, 08:35 PM You got it right.

The only unclear thing is what happens when I am exactly at 6HD. Do I save or die as per first paragraph, or do I just take the con damage, save for half?

A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).

A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage)
emphasis mine.

I checked the errata/FAQ and it doesn't tell. dunno this. I'd rule that with 4 up to and including 6 HD, you save or die, and with 7+ HD you save for half con damage. Reasoning is that Wizzies get this at level 7, so this might slay anyone with less HD than the wiz. *shrug*
Venator
07-10-06, 08:42 PM yeah, the confusion came because half the party is infact 6th level...

i ruled that they fall into the "6 HD or more" catagorey

any more feedback would be great.
SoldierOfFortune187
07-10-06, 11:24 PM 3 or less hit dice : no save (die)
4-6 hit dice : fort. save or die. if successful, instead take 1d4 Con. damage each round on your (caster's) turn
6 or more hit dice : 1d4 Con. damage each round, fort. save for half.

To me, this means that a 6 hit dice creature (or player) would have to make the initial save or die. Success means they instead take the 1d4 Con. that round. On each following round that they are within the cloud, they can make a fort. save to take half that Con. damage.

This basically makes cloudkill still potentially lethal at 6th level, but survivable and potentially less deadly (via successful saving throws in subsequent turns) than if they were under 6th level, but above 3rd (who do not get a save for half Constitution damage each turn by the spell's description).
Lotus Crane
07-11-06, 12:47 AM WotC's worst (and most core) typo...
Venator
07-11-06, 05:26 AM The thing is...

3 or less = die
4 to 6 HD = save or die
6 or more HD = con damage

the word "to" isnt inclusive and is the reason for this confusion.

the "or" in "6 or more HD" is inclusive. Which is why we ruled the way we did.

we figured the "4 to 6" meant:

From 4th to 6th, not including 6th... or basically, from exactly the EXP required for 4th level to exactly 1 EXP short of 6th level.
Kialindo
07-13-06, 10:40 AM Any other thoughts on this spell???

Any official rulings??
Vegepygmy
07-13-06, 01:25 PM Any other thoughts on this spell???It's an obvious typo. Unfortunately, it's not obvious what the authors meant to say. I'd bet money they meant "creatures with more than 6 HD," but applying the general principle of statutory interpretation that ambiguities are resolved in favor of the individual at whom they are directed, as DM I'd have to place a target with exactly 6 HD in the "6 or more HD" bin.

Interesting that this one hasn't been addressed in the errata, though.
Kialindo
07-14-06, 08:52 AM Unfortunately there is no official errata regarding this, it will be up to your DM to adjudicate which side of the line you will fall on! :)

I am passing this along to the Appropriate departments for review! All future changes and or updates will be posted here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

Good Luck and Game On!

Above is the response from Wizards..... Hopefully we will EVENTUALLY get some kind of errata on this one.....
Merestil Haye
07-14-06, 09:08 AM Follow the normal rules of English construction.

If something is expressed in a numerical range, the upper bound is included in the range unless context clearly shows otherwise. Here it does not.

Therefore creatures with 6HD who fail their save die, and those who make it take 1d4 Con damage per round.
Leilond
07-14-06, 09:12 AM But we have to sentences here

A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).

and

A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage)

A 6 HD creatures is good for BOTH rules... why do you consider well written the first and not the second?
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that there's obivous a problem here and that RAW do not cover well this situation
sorites
07-14-06, 09:50 AM A 6 HD creatures is good for BOTH rules

Agreed.

If you cast it on a bunch of 6th-level adventurers, they would need to make a Fort save or die. If they succeed on their save, they take 1d4 Con damage -- since they are 6HD or more, they get another Fort save to half the damage. Each round they remain in the cloudkill they take an additional 1d4 Con damage (Fort save for half).

If they were 4HD or 5HD creatures, they wouldn't get the save to reduce the Con damage. If they were 7HD (or higher) creatures, they would have no chance of being slain, but they would still take the Con damage (Fort save for half).
Warmage-in-Onley
07-14-06, 11:03 AM Agreed.

If you cast it on a bunch of 6th-level adventurers, they would need to make a Fort save or die. If they succeed on their save, they take 1d4 Con damage -- since they are 6HD or more, they get another Fort save to half the damage. Each round they remain in the cloudkill they take an additional 1d4 Con damage (Fort save for half).

If they were 4HD or 5HD creatures, they wouldn't get the save to reduce the Con damage. If they were 7HD (or higher) creatures, they would have no chance of being slain, but they would still take the Con damage (Fort save for half).

Interesting, the spell really has 4 level dependent effects! I'm not sure that's what anyone had in mind but, as a compromise solution, I think that's reasonable. :clap:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Venator 07-10-06, 08:14 PM	So it kills 3 or fewer HD creatures. Cool. The 4 to 6 HD creatures save or die... Does this mean creatures (players) that are exactly 4th level all the way up to exactly 1 EXP short of 6th level need to save or die? Creatures that are 6 HD or higher take con damage. I just had a Cloudkill trap really mess up a party, and im posting here to make sure our ruling is correct. Thanks.
Lord of Dorkness 07-10-06, 08:35 PM	You got it right. The only unclear thing is what happens when I am exactly at 6HD. Do I save or die as per first paragraph, or do I just take the con damage, save for half? A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud). A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage) emphasis mine. I checked the errata/FAQ and it doesn't tell. dunno this. I'd rule that with 4 up to and including 6 HD, you save or die, and with 7+ HD you save for half con damage. Reasoning is that Wizzies get this at level 7, so this might slay anyone with less HD than the wiz. shrug
Venator 07-10-06, 08:42 PM	yeah, the confusion came because half the party is infact 6th level... i ruled that they fall into the "6 HD or more" catagorey any more feedback would be great.
SoldierOfFortune187 07-10-06, 11:24 PM	3 or less hit dice : no save (die) 4-6 hit dice : fort. save or die. if successful, instead take 1d4 Con. damage each round on your (caster's) turn 6 or more hit dice : 1d4 Con. damage each round, fort. save for half. To me, this means that a 6 hit dice creature (or player) would have to make the initial save or die. Success means they instead take the 1d4 Con. that round. On each following round that they are within the cloud, they can make a fort. save to take half that Con. damage. This basically makes cloudkill still potentially lethal at 6th level, but survivable and potentially less deadly (via successful saving throws in subsequent turns) than if they were under 6th level, but above 3rd (who do not get a save for half Constitution damage each turn by the spell's description).
Lotus Crane 07-11-06, 12:47 AM	WotC's worst (and most core) typo...
Venator 07-11-06, 05:26 AM	The thing is... 3 or less = die 4 to 6 HD = save or die 6 or more HD = con damage the word "to" isnt inclusive and is the reason for this confusion. the "or" in "6 or more HD" is inclusive. Which is why we ruled the way we did. we figured the "4 to 6" meant: From 4th to 6th, not including 6th... or basically, from exactly the EXP required for 4th level to exactly 1 EXP short of 6th level.
Kialindo 07-13-06, 10:40 AM	Any other thoughts on this spell??? Any official rulings??
Vegepygmy 07-13-06, 01:25 PM	Any other thoughts on this spell???It's an obvious typo. Unfortunately, it's not obvious what the authors meant to say. I'd bet money they meant "creatures with more than 6 HD," but applying the general principle of statutory interpretation that ambiguities are resolved in favor of the individual at whom they are directed, as DM I'd have to place a target with exactly 6 HD in the "6 or more HD" bin. Interesting that this one hasn't been addressed in the errata, though.
Kialindo 07-14-06, 08:52 AM	Unfortunately there is no official errata regarding this, it will be up to your DM to adjudicate which side of the line you will fall on! :) I am passing this along to the Appropriate departments for review! All future changes and or updates will be posted here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a Good Luck and Game On! Above is the response from Wizards..... Hopefully we will EVENTUALLY get some kind of errata on this one.....
Merestil Haye 07-14-06, 09:08 AM	Follow the normal rules of English construction. If something is expressed in a numerical range, the upper bound is included in the range unless context clearly shows otherwise. Here it does not. Therefore creatures with 6HD who fail their save die, and those who make it take 1d4 Con damage per round.
Leilond 07-14-06, 09:12 AM	But we have to sentences here A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud). and A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage) A 6 HD creatures is good for BOTH rules... why do you consider well written the first and not the second? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that there's obivous a problem here and that RAW do not cover well this situation
sorites 07-14-06, 09:50 AM	A 6 HD creatures is good for BOTH rules Agreed. If you cast it on a bunch of 6th-level adventurers, they would need to make a Fort save or die. If they succeed on their save, they take 1d4 Con damage -- since they are 6HD or more, they get another Fort save to half the damage. Each round they remain in the cloudkill they take an additional 1d4 Con damage (Fort save for half). If they were 4HD or 5HD creatures, they wouldn't get the save to reduce the Con damage. If they were 7HD (or higher) creatures, they would have no chance of being slain, but they would still take the Con damage (Fort save for half).
Warmage-in-Onley 07-14-06, 11:03 AM	Agreed. If you cast it on a bunch of 6th-level adventurers, they would need to make a Fort save or die. If they succeed on their save, they take 1d4 Con damage -- since they are 6HD or more, they get another Fort save to half the damage. Each round they remain in the cloudkill they take an additional 1d4 Con damage (Fort save for half). If they were 4HD or 5HD creatures, they wouldn't get the save to reduce the Con damage. If they were 7HD (or higher) creatures, they would have no chance of being slain, but they would still take the Con damage (Fort save for half). Interesting, the spell really has 4 level dependent effects! I'm not sure that's what anyone had in mind but, as a compromise solution, I think that's reasonable. :clap: