Club of Frosty Frosty Frost [Archive] - Wizards Community

Club of Frosty Frosty Frost [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sproik
11-26-03, 09:39 AM Officially, is there any reason why someone can't enchant a magic weapon with the same special ability multiple times? For example, have a Club +1 of Frost, of Frost, of Frost (thus doing +3d6 cold damage).

At the moment my house rule is that while you can do this, the cold damage does not stack (i.e. the above club still only does +1d6 cold damage). If for some reason it lost one of the special abilities it would still do +1d6 cold damage because of the other two, but essentially it's a waste of time and money to stack up the same ability.
Mirror-Image
11-26-03, 01:10 PM i dont know weather it is possible to have the same enchantment more then one time, but as you have pointed out it isnt important in this case. it might get interessting if you think about the spellstoring ability ...

but i wanted to say that our ruling is you can have an element with as much damage as you want but you can have just one element type of damage. so normaly you would have a screaming,acidic,schocking,flaming ice weapon and in our games you would instead have a flaming or screaming or ... weapon that deals 5d6 of damge.
i think this doesnt look as stupid as having 5 different elements and still get the same damage dice
Bifford
11-26-03, 01:23 PM Why can't we just scale up the damage done by these enchantments, within a fair increase in the gold/XP for creating the weapon? The only real drawback would be that it would screw up the convention of using name descriptors to efficiently communicate the abilities of the weapon.

Why not call it, say, a +1 extra-freezing (+3d6) club?
dantedarkstar
11-26-03, 02:02 PM You realize that +3d6 is epic-level +6 enchantment ?
It deals 6d6 on crit though (and 9d6 etc. for higher crit multipliers) but still it gives a little to think about how exactly +Nd6 damage increases in power with N.
Multi-elemental weapons are just silly and I would ban them altogehter.
5d6 for +5 is so powerful for mere +5 it calls for vnegance BTW.

Edit: Forgot to add that multi-elemental weapons, acidic and sonic are munchkiny (mostly sonic for obvious reasons).
Thelon Fairblade
11-26-03, 02:05 PM +2d6 cold is worth more than +1d6 cold and +1d6 fire.

Why? because +2d6 cold has a better chance to injure a creature with elemental resistances (natural or magical) than 2 "+1d6" enchantments.

I believe there is an "epic" enchantment that is like +6 bonus for +3d6 elemental damage.

So, probably:
of Frost = +1d6 (+1 bonus)
of Freezing = +2d6 (+3 bonus)
of Ice = +3d6 (+5 bonus, or +6 if duplicates the epic rule)

of Frosty Burst (+2) = as "of Frost", but +Xd10 on a crit (x = multiplier-1)
of Freezing Burst (+4) = as "of Freezing", but +2Xd8 on a crit
of Icy Burst (+6 or +7) = as "of Ice", but +3xd10 on a crit
Sproik
11-26-03, 03:22 PM This is all well and good, but the point is there is noofficial ruling that says you cannot have multiple +1d6 cold (or any other element) abilities, is there?

So with an Epic weapon, I'd be a fool not to take a +1 Club with +9d6 worth of cold damage...

Gaaahhhhh.... (slump)
The Hanged Man
11-26-03, 03:28 PM I'd allow multiple frosts, etc. The damage bonus is unnamed, it just does fire or frost or whatever, and so should stack, and really what's the big deal? It's not that cool of an enchantment.

Also, the bonus damage dice aren't multiplied on a crit for normal energy enhancements. Per PHB 140:

Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Those stupid epic things are special. Like all of epic. Special and stupid.
Bifford
11-26-03, 03:43 PM What about the Flail of Ages from Baldur's Gate 2? It had multiple heads, each with a different elemental type (fire, cold and acid, IIRC).
Mirror-Image
11-26-03, 04:12 PM Originally posted by Sproik
This is all well and good, but the point is there is noofficial ruling that says you cannot have multiple +1d6 cold (or any other element) abilities, is there?

So with an Epic weapon, I'd be a fool not to take a +1 Club with +9d6 worth of cold damage...

Gaaahhhhh.... (slump)

i think the stacking rule says that two boni from the same source dont stack. so you have 1d6 fire damage from the "flame" ability. another "flame" ability wouldnt be added to this damage.

following your logic you could take feats like mantis leap more then once. and everytime you take the feat your charge damage would add your strenght modifier again and again ... that doesnt make sense.

and for the ones who think that 3d6 is by far too good for a +3 bonus:
a straight +3 = +3 hit +3 damage with power attack you have +0 to hit and +9 damage. add the critical damage increase and you are better than or at least equal to a +3 ability with 3d6 sonic damage.

just my 2ct
The Hanged Man
11-26-03, 05:23 PM The rule is that bonuses from the same spell don't stack. I haven't found a similar rule for magic items. Hence Orange Ioun Stone silliness. Which doesn't mean it's not out there, or make an OK house rule.
kreynolds
11-26-03, 06:40 PM Originally posted by Sproik
Officially, is there any reason why someone can't enchant a magic weapon with the same special ability multiple times?

As others have said, there's the stacking issue. In general, A doesn't stack with A, but A will stack with B. The last time I emailed the Sage about this (or was it CS?), was back in 3.0, and I was told they don't stack.

However, this was also about the same time that CS told me that the +1d6 of a flaming burst weapon doesn't stack with the +1d10, and this was also during the time that both the Sage and CS said that flaming and shock don't stack either, which is odd because they aren't similar effects, so hey. :D

Anyways, from an official standpoint, I haven't heard anything, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a resounding "No".

With that said, I allow them to stack. One of my player's is running around with two x4 flaming weapons, and to be quite honest, I haven't run into a problem yet.
Finarin Panjoro
11-26-03, 06:50 PM Seems reasonable to me. A +1 freezing (+2d6) longsword would just be costed out as a +3 weapon.

It's also debatable whether +2d6 cold damage is better or worse than +1d6 cold and +1d6 fire. If you're fighting fire giants the +2d6 is much better, if you're fighting frost giants the +1d6 is much better.

Against non-resistant/vulnerable foes its just more damage so it can easily be handled like any other bonus as far as costs are concerned.
gradea
11-28-03, 12:36 AM Originally posted by dantedarkstar
You realize that +3d6 is epic-level +6 enchantment ?
It deals 6d6 on crit though (and 9d6 etc. for higher crit multipliers) but still it gives a little to think about how exactly +Nd6 damage increases in power with N.
Multi-elemental weapons are just silly and I would ban them altogehter.
5d6 for +5 is so powerful for mere +5 it calls for vnegance BTW.

Edit: Forgot to add that multi-elemental weapons, acidic and sonic are munchkiny (mostly sonic for obvious reasons).

paladin with a holy, lawful flaming sword does 5d6, would you ban that?

speed lets you do an extra attck, for a high level fighter that could be more than 5d6's average damage

the bane enchantments do +2, +2d6

and for the epic thing, yes, its +6 for 3d6 because it also has something like the bursting ability, 3 bursting abilities is +6. this doesnt.

i dont even see how multiple elemnts done make sense, if i cover you in acid you become immune to fire, cold, intense sound, and eletricity? heck even in terms of game balance there are ways to handle that, i use mostly outsiders.

i can see though why you may want to limit it, even if i argue to the contrary. each DM should pick his own limit, but i find 2-3d6 acceptable.
Krynus Ogrebane
11-28-03, 04:46 AM Originally posted by The Hanged Man
The rule is that bonuses from the same spell don't stack. I haven't found a similar rule for magic items.

3.5 DMG, p. 21.
3.5 PHB, p. 172.
Thelon Fairblade
11-28-03, 08:39 AM Finarin, a multiple-element weapon fails most spectacularly (when compared to a doubled-up single element) when facing creatures that have multiple resistances.

Tiefling: Cold 5, Fire 5.
-- sword of Flame and Frost = no bonus damage (max +2)
-- sword of frost and frost = avg +2 dmg (max +7)

Random Fiend (Baatezu or Tannar'ri): Cold 20, Fire Immune, Acid 20, Elec 20
-- Sword of flame, frost, acid, electric = +0 (max +0)
-- Sword of quad-frost = 0 avg dmg (max +4)
kreynolds
11-28-03, 09:35 AM Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane
3.5 DMG, p. 21.

Flaming is not a named bonus, thus page 21 of the DMG isn't applicable.

Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane
3.5 PHB, p. 172.

This one, however, is indeed applicable.
kreynolds
11-28-03, 09:37 AM Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
Finarin, a multiple-element weapon fails most spectacularly (when compared to a doubled-up single element) when facing creatures that have multiple resistances.

Yeah, it's a catch-22. No matter which type you have, either 4x of the same element or four different elements, both will before better and worse in differing situations.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sproik 11-26-03, 09:39 AM	Officially, is there any reason why someone can't enchant a magic weapon with the same special ability multiple times? For example, have a Club +1 of Frost, of Frost, of Frost (thus doing +3d6 cold damage). At the moment my house rule is that while you can do this, the cold damage does not stack (i.e. the above club still only does +1d6 cold damage). If for some reason it lost one of the special abilities it would still do +1d6 cold damage because of the other two, but essentially it's a waste of time and money to stack up the same ability.
Mirror-Image 11-26-03, 01:10 PM	i dont know weather it is possible to have the same enchantment more then one time, but as you have pointed out it isnt important in this case. it might get interessting if you think about the spellstoring ability ... but i wanted to say that our ruling is you can have an element with as much damage as you want but you can have just one element type of damage. so normaly you would have a screaming,acidic,schocking,flaming ice weapon and in our games you would instead have a flaming or screaming or ... weapon that deals 5d6 of damge. i think this doesnt look as stupid as having 5 different elements and still get the same damage dice
Bifford 11-26-03, 01:23 PM	Why can't we just scale up the damage done by these enchantments, within a fair increase in the gold/XP for creating the weapon? The only real drawback would be that it would screw up the convention of using name descriptors to efficiently communicate the abilities of the weapon. Why not call it, say, a +1 extra-freezing (+3d6) club?
dantedarkstar 11-26-03, 02:02 PM	You realize that +3d6 is epic-level +6 enchantment ? It deals 6d6 on crit though (and 9d6 etc. for higher crit multipliers) but still it gives a little to think about how exactly +Nd6 damage increases in power with N. Multi-elemental weapons are just silly and I would ban them altogehter. 5d6 for +5 is so powerful for mere +5 it calls for vnegance BTW. Edit: Forgot to add that multi-elemental weapons, acidic and sonic are munchkiny (mostly sonic for obvious reasons).
Thelon Fairblade 11-26-03, 02:05 PM	+2d6 cold is worth more than +1d6 cold and +1d6 fire. Why? because +2d6 cold has a better chance to injure a creature with elemental resistances (natural or magical) than 2 "+1d6" enchantments. I believe there is an "epic" enchantment that is like +6 bonus for +3d6 elemental damage. So, probably: of Frost = +1d6 (+1 bonus) of Freezing = +2d6 (+3 bonus) of Ice = +3d6 (+5 bonus, or +6 if duplicates the epic rule) of Frosty Burst (+2) = as "of Frost", but +Xd10 on a crit (x = multiplier-1) of Freezing Burst (+4) = as "of Freezing", but +2Xd8 on a crit of Icy Burst (+6 or +7) = as "of Ice", but +3xd10 on a crit
Sproik 11-26-03, 03:22 PM	This is all well and good, but the point is there is noofficial ruling that says you cannot have multiple +1d6 cold (or any other element) abilities, is there? So with an Epic weapon, I'd be a fool not to take a +1 Club with +9d6 worth of cold damage... Gaaahhhhh.... (slump)
The Hanged Man 11-26-03, 03:28 PM	I'd allow multiple frosts, etc. The damage bonus is unnamed, it just does fire or frost or whatever, and so should stack, and really what's the big deal? It's not that cool of an enchantment. Also, the bonus damage dice aren't multiplied on a crit for normal energy enhancements. Per PHB 140: Extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Those stupid epic things are special. Like all of epic. Special and stupid.
Bifford 11-26-03, 03:43 PM	What about the Flail of Ages from Baldur's Gate 2? It had multiple heads, each with a different elemental type (fire, cold and acid, IIRC).
Mirror-Image 11-26-03, 04:12 PM	Originally posted by Sproik This is all well and good, but the point is there is noofficial ruling that says you cannot have multiple +1d6 cold (or any other element) abilities, is there? So with an Epic weapon, I'd be a fool not to take a +1 Club with +9d6 worth of cold damage... Gaaahhhhh.... (slump) i think the stacking rule says that two boni from the same source dont stack. so you have 1d6 fire damage from the "flame" ability. another "flame" ability wouldnt be added to this damage. following your logic you could take feats like mantis leap more then once. and everytime you take the feat your charge damage would add your strenght modifier again and again ... that doesnt make sense. and for the ones who think that 3d6 is by far too good for a +3 bonus: a straight +3 = +3 hit +3 damage with power attack you have +0 to hit and +9 damage. add the critical damage increase and you are better than or at least equal to a +3 ability with 3d6 sonic damage. just my 2ct
The Hanged Man 11-26-03, 05:23 PM	The rule is that bonuses from the same spell don't stack. I haven't found a similar rule for magic items. Hence Orange Ioun Stone silliness. Which doesn't mean it's not out there, or make an OK house rule.
kreynolds 11-26-03, 06:40 PM	Originally posted by Sproik Officially, is there any reason why someone can't enchant a magic weapon with the same special ability multiple times? As others have said, there's the stacking issue. In general, A doesn't stack with A, but A will stack with B. The last time I emailed the Sage about this (or was it CS?), was back in 3.0, and I was told they don't stack. However, this was also about the same time that CS told me that the +1d6 of a flaming burst weapon doesn't stack with the +1d10, and this was also during the time that both the Sage and CS said that flaming and shock don't stack either, which is odd because they aren't similar effects, so hey. :D Anyways, from an official standpoint, I haven't heard anything, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a resounding "No". With that said, I allow them to stack. One of my player's is running around with two x4 flaming weapons, and to be quite honest, I haven't run into a problem yet.
Finarin Panjoro 11-26-03, 06:50 PM	Seems reasonable to me. A +1 freezing (+2d6) longsword would just be costed out as a +3 weapon. It's also debatable whether +2d6 cold damage is better or worse than +1d6 cold and +1d6 fire. If you're fighting fire giants the +2d6 is much better, if you're fighting frost giants the +1d6 is much better. Against non-resistant/vulnerable foes its just more damage so it can easily be handled like any other bonus as far as costs are concerned.
gradea 11-28-03, 12:36 AM	Originally posted by dantedarkstar You realize that +3d6 is epic-level +6 enchantment ? It deals 6d6 on crit though (and 9d6 etc. for higher crit multipliers) but still it gives a little to think about how exactly +Nd6 damage increases in power with N. Multi-elemental weapons are just silly and I would ban them altogehter. 5d6 for +5 is so powerful for mere +5 it calls for vnegance BTW. Edit: Forgot to add that multi-elemental weapons, acidic and sonic are munchkiny (mostly sonic for obvious reasons). paladin with a holy, lawful flaming sword does 5d6, would you ban that? speed lets you do an extra attck, for a high level fighter that could be more than 5d6's average damage the bane enchantments do +2, +2d6 and for the epic thing, yes, its +6 for 3d6 because it also has something like the bursting ability, 3 bursting abilities is +6. this doesnt. i dont even see how multiple elemnts done make sense, if i cover you in acid you become immune to fire, cold, intense sound, and eletricity? heck even in terms of game balance there are ways to handle that, i use mostly outsiders. i can see though why you may want to limit it, even if i argue to the contrary. each DM should pick his own limit, but i find 2-3d6 acceptable.
Krynus Ogrebane 11-28-03, 04:46 AM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man The rule is that bonuses from the same spell don't stack. I haven't found a similar rule for magic items. 3.5 DMG, p. 21. 3.5 PHB, p. 172.
Thelon Fairblade 11-28-03, 08:39 AM	Finarin, a multiple-element weapon fails most spectacularly (when compared to a doubled-up single element) when facing creatures that have multiple resistances. Tiefling: Cold 5, Fire 5. -- sword of Flame and Frost = no bonus damage (max +2) -- sword of frost and frost = avg +2 dmg (max +7) Random Fiend (Baatezu or Tannar'ri): Cold 20, Fire Immune, Acid 20, Elec 20 -- Sword of flame, frost, acid, electric = +0 (max +0) -- Sword of quad-frost = 0 avg dmg (max +4)
kreynolds 11-28-03, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane 3.5 DMG, p. 21. Flaming is not a named bonus, thus page 21 of the DMG isn't applicable. Originally posted by Krynus Ogrebane 3.5 PHB, p. 172. This one, however, is indeed applicable.
kreynolds 11-28-03, 09:37 AM	Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade Finarin, a multiple-element weapon fails most spectacularly (when compared to a doubled-up single element) when facing creatures that have multiple resistances. Yeah, it's a catch-22. No matter which type you have, either 4x of the same element or four different elements, both will before better and worse in differing situations.