Co-operative Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Co-operative Item Creation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oneiros
06-03-04, 12:30 AM Okay, got a question about this rather ambiguous statement on page 282 of the DMG (3.5), under Creating Magic Items. This is in regard to prerequisite spells for creating items:

Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

And that's all it says on the matter. Seems to cry out for further explaination, but there is none.

Accessing prereq spells to make item A by casting them from item B seems pretty straight forward. The creator still has to be able to use item B - i.e., a wizard can't make a ring of Protection +1 (prereq spell: Shield of Faith) by using a Shield of Faith Wand, because he can't use the wand (Shield of Faith isn't on his spell list.) But if item B where a wonderous item that allowed casting of the spell, well, I guess he could use it in that case.

But accessing the spells through another spellcaster? So the wizard can just have his cleric buddy cast Shield of Faith while he's making the ring? Or would the cleric have to give the wiz the ability to cast the spell himself, such as with Imbue with Spell ability?

Cuz if it's the former, then that doesn't seem like much of a limitation on item creation; if he's got someone to cast the spell, a wiz can make any divine magic based item he wants?

Just seems... wrong.
Pennarin
06-03-04, 01:17 AM I'm at a loss too on this field. If someone has an explanation, please do post.

In addition to what Oneiros mentioned, what of the feat requirements? Can another entity in the creation process, possessing the required feat, apply its value to the process, perhaps if it has the same Item Creation feat in use?

Also, in Dragon Mag there's a lot of necromantic feats that allow you to boost the power of an undead you animate. Can those be shared by a cabal of necromancers, ensuring that every undead created by its members has the maximum number of applied bonuses from those feats?

Grrr and re-grrrr....
DemonMonkeyBoy
06-03-04, 05:36 AM :b: Heres how I understand it.
The person using the creation feat is the one to pay the EXP. This person can receive help to fill the other prerequ. If a cleric is needed then he will cast the spells needed for the duration of creating the item. Or use the magic item if thats what is needed.

I may be wrong, but I think the only prerequ the person with the feat has to fill is caster lvl even if he's not the one casting the spells.

As for Pennarin question about the undead feats. I would say it really depends on the feat. As a general statement I don't think they would, because (just guessing) they are not the same as creation feats. They probably affect the spell as they are being cast, so i'm not sure of you would share them.

If you start another thread and list Mag and pg # Maybe I could help better.
Nagol
06-03-04, 06:54 AM It is hidden in the "Magic Item Descriptions" initial blurb.

Here it is from the SRD
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.
Oneiros
06-03-04, 11:13 AM Okay, then a specific example (from my current campaign) - the wiz wants to make a +3 Protection Wondrous item. He's the creator, incurring the XP cost. Using a ring of protection as the guideline, the prereq spell is Shield of Faith, and the caster must be 9th level (3 x bonus). He has to ask the party cleric to assist (who's actually multiclass, so her cleric level is lower than his wizard level.)

So, who has to be 9th level - the wizard or the cleric? Is it the spell being cast at 9th level, or the item creation that's being done at 9th level?

The SDR quote above references creator level, not caster level. Is there a difference?
Lord Lorac Silvanos
06-03-04, 12:08 PM Originally posted by Oneiros
Okay, then a specific example (from my current campaign) - the wiz wants to make a +3 Protection Wondrous item. He's the creator, incurring the XP cost. Using a ring of protection as the guideline, the prereq spell is Shield of Faith, and the caster must be 9th level (3 x bonus). He has to ask the party cleric to assist (who's actually multiclass, so her cleric level is lower than his wizard level.)

So, who has to be 9th level - the wizard or the cleric? Is it the spell being cast at 9th level, or the item creation that's being done at 9th level?

The SDR quote above references creator level, not caster level. Is there a difference?

First of all a Ring of protection is not a wondrous item. It is a ring and require the Forge Ring feat. :D

But to answer your question:

Notice the description of the Caster Level requirement:

From the SRD
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

And the description of the Ring of Protection:

From the SRD Ring of Protection
Protection: This ring offers continual magical protection in the form of a deflection bonus of +1 to +5 to AC.
Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Forge Ring, shield of faith, caster must be of a level at least three times greater than the bonus of the ring; Price 2,000 gp (ring +1); 8,000 gp (ring +2); 18,000 gp (ring +3); 32,000 gp (ring +4); 50,000 gp (ring +5).

(My emphasis)

The Caster Level requirement for making the ring is 5th, which means that the creator, the wizard, must be at least 5th level.
The caster of Shield of Faith must be at least three times the bonus, which means that the cleric must be able to cast it at 9th level.
Nagol
06-03-04, 01:17 PM Notice the description of the Caster Level requirement:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the SRD
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above has been rather dramatically changed in the DMG errata.

Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3537698#post3537698) is the section with the errata applied.

For the example of the protection item, the creator would have to be 9th level. The spell can be obtained from a different source.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
06-03-04, 01:36 PM Thanks for the clarification Nagol :)
I had not noticed, probably because my DM's are cheapskates :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oneiros 06-03-04, 12:30 AM	Okay, got a question about this rather ambiguous statement on page 282 of the DMG (3.5), under Creating Magic Items. This is in regard to prerequisite spells for creating items: Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). And that's all it says on the matter. Seems to cry out for further explaination, but there is none. Accessing prereq spells to make item A by casting them from item B seems pretty straight forward. The creator still has to be able to use item B - i.e., a wizard can't make a ring of Protection +1 (prereq spell: Shield of Faith) by using a Shield of Faith Wand, because he can't use the wand (Shield of Faith isn't on his spell list.) But if item B where a wonderous item that allowed casting of the spell, well, I guess he could use it in that case. But accessing the spells through another spellcaster? So the wizard can just have his cleric buddy cast Shield of Faith while he's making the ring? Or would the cleric have to give the wiz the ability to cast the spell himself, such as with Imbue with Spell ability? Cuz if it's the former, then that doesn't seem like much of a limitation on item creation; if he's got someone to cast the spell, a wiz can make any divine magic based item he wants? Just seems... wrong.
Pennarin 06-03-04, 01:17 AM	I'm at a loss too on this field. If someone has an explanation, please do post. In addition to what Oneiros mentioned, what of the feat requirements? Can another entity in the creation process, possessing the required feat, apply its value to the process, perhaps if it has the same Item Creation feat in use? Also, in Dragon Mag there's a lot of necromantic feats that allow you to boost the power of an undead you animate. Can those be shared by a cabal of necromancers, ensuring that every undead created by its members has the maximum number of applied bonuses from those feats? Grrr and re-grrrr....
DemonMonkeyBoy 06-03-04, 05:36 AM	:b: Heres how I understand it. The person using the creation feat is the one to pay the EXP. This person can receive help to fill the other prerequ. If a cleric is needed then he will cast the spells needed for the duration of creating the item. Or use the magic item if thats what is needed. I may be wrong, but I think the only prerequ the person with the feat has to fill is caster lvl even if he's not the one casting the spells. As for Pennarin question about the undead feats. I would say it really depends on the feat. As a general statement I don't think they would, because (just guessing) they are not the same as creation feats. They probably affect the spell as they are being cast, so i'm not sure of you would share them. If you start another thread and list Mag and pg # Maybe I could help better.
Nagol 06-03-04, 06:54 AM	It is hidden in the "Magic Item Descriptions" initial blurb. Here it is from the SRD It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary. If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.
Oneiros 06-03-04, 11:13 AM	Okay, then a specific example (from my current campaign) - the wiz wants to make a +3 Protection Wondrous item. He's the creator, incurring the XP cost. Using a ring of protection as the guideline, the prereq spell is Shield of Faith, and the caster must be 9th level (3 x bonus). He has to ask the party cleric to assist (who's actually multiclass, so her cleric level is lower than his wizard level.) So, who has to be 9th level - the wizard or the cleric? Is it the spell being cast at 9th level, or the item creation that's being done at 9th level? The SDR quote above references creator level, not caster level. Is there a difference?
Lord Lorac Silvanos 06-03-04, 12:08 PM	Originally posted by Oneiros Okay, then a specific example (from my current campaign) - the wiz wants to make a +3 Protection Wondrous item. He's the creator, incurring the XP cost. Using a ring of protection as the guideline, the prereq spell is Shield of Faith, and the caster must be 9th level (3 x bonus). He has to ask the party cleric to assist (who's actually multiclass, so her cleric level is lower than his wizard level.) So, who has to be 9th level - the wizard or the cleric? Is it the spell being cast at 9th level, or the item creation that's being done at 9th level? The SDR quote above references creator level, not caster level. Is there a difference? First of all a Ring of protection is not a wondrous item. It is a ring and require the Forge Ring feat. :D But to answer your question: Notice the description of the Caster Level requirement: From the SRD For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). And the description of the Ring of Protection: From the SRD Ring of Protection Protection: This ring offers continual magical protection in the form of a deflection bonus of +1 to +5 to AC. Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Forge Ring, shield of faith, caster must be of a level at least three times greater than the bonus of the ring; Price 2,000 gp (ring +1); 8,000 gp (ring +2); 18,000 gp (ring +3); 32,000 gp (ring +4); 50,000 gp (ring +5). (My emphasis) The Caster Level requirement for making the ring is 5th, which means that the creator, the wizard, must be at least 5th level. The caster of Shield of Faith must be at least three times the bonus, which means that the cleric must be able to cast it at 9th level.
Nagol 06-03-04, 01:17 PM	Notice the description of the Caster Level requirement: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the SRD For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above has been rather dramatically changed in the DMG errata. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3537698#post3537698) is the section with the errata applied. For the example of the protection item, the creator would have to be 9th level. The spell can be obtained from a different source.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 06-03-04, 01:36 PM	Thanks for the clarification Nagol :) I had not noticed, probably because my DM's are cheapskates :rolleyes: