Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hand_OF_Mystra 01-06-06, 01:15 PM	Hi, I just read in the DMG that two or more PCs can collaborate on the creation of a magic item. That is cool. Does that mean that if my cleric finds a wizard that the tow of them can create divine scrolls together? If so, how is the XP cost apportioned?
Zherog 01-06-06, 01:20 PM	In my game? Whoever wants to. By the rules? I think the person with the Item Creation feat pays - though, of course, it's possible that what I've assumed to be a house rule is the actual rule.
Seeker95 01-06-06, 01:50 PM	I believe the item creator *is* the xp payer. Which opens the door for some of the various Feats that allow variation on this.
RaspK FOG 01-06-06, 03:14 PM	Something I made in the past (with a little revisioning): Cooperative Creation [Item Creation] Your experience in the creation of magical items allows you to help another creator of magical items complete his work - in several ways. Prerequisites: Any 3 item creation feats, caster level 12, Spellcraft 15 ranks. Benefit: You may help a person with whom you share an item creation feat craft an appropriate item using that feat. First of all, the main creator of the item must be chosen from amongst its crafters. You must offer some assistance in its creation (usually by casting some of spells required in the item's creation or helping in the creation of some needed materials) and may pay any amount of the item's XP cost as high as half the required number, rounded down; the main creator pays the item's total XP cost minus half the XP you paid. While both of you are needed while the item is created, you must spend a day for every 1.500 gp of its market price rather than 1.000 gp. Assisted Creation [Item Creation] Your understanding of the creation of magical items allows you to have several people assist you in the creation of magical items in outstanding ways. Prerequisites: Any 5 item creation feats, Cooperative Creation, caster level 18, Spellcraft 21 ranks. Benefit: You may receive the assistance of up to 7 people with whom you share an item creation feat to craft an appropriate item using that feat. The assistants must offer some assistance in its creation (usually by casting some of spells required in the item's creation or helping in the creation of some needed materials) and may pay any amount of the item's XP cost as high as half the required number, rounded down (they split the cost evenly, rounded down); you pay the item's total XP cost minus half the XP they paid. While all of you are needed while the item is created, you must spend a day for every 1.500 gp of its market price if there are up to 1 assistants, or a day for every 1.750 gp of its market price if there are up to 3 assistants, or a day for every 2.000 gp of its market price if there are 7 assistants, rather than 1.000 gp a day.
Seeker95 01-06-06, 03:18 PM	RaspK, I like that Feat. Utilitarian without trying to get something for nothing. Basically gives you 50% more creation (by calendar time) for double the man-hours. (Translation: You work 50% faster, cutting your creation time by 33%)
RaspK FOG 01-06-06, 03:34 PM	Thanks for the compliment. I made some changes and an addition; any comments?
RaspK FOG 01-06-06, 05:28 PM	Some editing and rules corrections made; any comments now?
mvincent 01-06-06, 05:31 PM	In my game? Whoever wants to. By the rules? I think the person with the Item Creation feat paysWhile that feels right to me too, the rules seem to indicate that creator (i.e. the one that pays the XP) and the person that has the creation feat need not be the same person: It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary. If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item. Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).
RaspK FOG 01-06-06, 06:28 PM	While that feels right to me too, the rules seem to indicate that creator (i.e. the one that pays the XP) and the person that has the creation feat need not be the same person: Also, read this from Part Seven of "Rules of the Game: Magic Items:" A Completely Unofficial Rule: Cooperative Item Creation As noted back in Part One, more than one character can cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. According to the rules, however, XP costs cannot be shared. One character must shoulder the XP burden alone. If players in your game are avid magic item creators, you might want to experiment with shared XP costs. You can allow characters who work together on a magic item to divide up the XP cost any way they like. To share the cost, a character must provide at least one of the item's prerequisites. Any division of the XP cost is possible, provided that all the creators agree to the scheme. If you have the kind of campaign in which some of your players pester the others to make magic items for them, you might want to allow any character to share the XP cost to make an item. An XP donor must be present each day during the item's creation (or at least when work begins on the item each day). Allow the XP donation to be strictly voluntary -- it doesn't work if the donor is magically charmed or compelled, or if the donor is bullied or intimidated into contributing. On the other hand, allowing evil spellcasters to force XP from unwilling victims might just add the right touch of nastiness to dark fantasy campaigns.
runestar 01-06-06, 09:53 PM	Its a generally accepted houserule that it would be fair that the final recipient of the magic item to be crafted be the one to pay the xp. It would not be fair to always have the mage be the one to have to fork out all that xp.
Seeker95 01-06-06, 10:07 PM	Its a generally accepted houseruleI'm not sure what "generally accepted" means. In threads on this subject, folks are pretty evenly split on the idea of whether it would be fair or not. And of those who think it would be "fair", it is again pretty evenly split as to whether they would allow it. I certainly would not allow it in my campaign. The wizard charges extra (profit) partially because this (xp) is one of the requirements. Without a Feat that somehow lets a wizard drain experience from a (willing?) subject, or said subject already having the ability to infuse your own essence into an item (aka: having an item creation Feat of your own), you can't "give xp" to an item creation.
Marcus Majarra 01-07-06, 02:44 AM	According to the RAW, there are three conditions for being the creator of a magic item: • The creator pays the experience points required to make the item. In other words, if creating the item would cost more experience points than you can afford to lose, you can't be the creator. • The creator must somtimes meet specific requirements set by a given magic item. For example, boots of striding and springing require that the creator have 5 ranks in the Jump skill. • The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level. As such, having an item creation feat is not a requirement for the creator of the item, but the feat must be present in the creation process. Now, here's the real perk for being the creator of a magic item: • The creator sets the item's caster level. The item's caster level must be between the minimum caster level required to cast the spell with the highest CL requirement (based on whomever provided that spell requirement) and the creator's own caster level. This means that the item's caster level could be higher than that of a character supplying a spell component. For example, a 5th-level paladin and a 5th-level wizard with the Craft Wand feat could collaborate to create a wand of cure light woulds CL5, if the wizard is designated as the creator.
Nom 01-07-06, 07:15 AM	Marcus is generally correct. Anybody who meets the CL requirement can be the creator, and they pay the XP. It's even possible to have a creator that meets no other pre-req than the minimum CL. I'm disagree about the ruling about Jump. Cooperation is a modification to the base rules, which means that "creator" in that context may mean "the person (or people) creating the item" rather than strictly "the person who provides the XP and CL". I have said differently previously, but after thinking further don't see how you can read "creator" strictly in that context without creating awkwardness with related rules. As for caster level, I'd be careful about allowing the creator to pick any (legal) CL for free, even though this could be interpreted from the post-errata version of pg 215 (which on this topic actually introduces ambiguity that it was supposed to remove). An item with a CL higher than the minimum is correspondingly more powerful, and should be charged accordingly. pg 282 suggests that the power of spells in an item is directly tied to the item's caster level, but this doesn't help for items that don't directly create spell effects.
RaspK FOG 01-07-06, 07:42 AM	As such, having an item creation feat is not a requirement for the creator of the item, but the feat must be present in the creation process.Actually, the entries of both the various item creation feats as well as the entries of item creation itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm; the online SRD) plainly read that you must have the appropriate item creation feat to create such an item - for instance: Creating Magic Armor [...] If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), must provide any material components or focuses the spells require, and must pay any XP costs required for the spells. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) Creating some armor may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details. Crafting magic armor requires one day for each 1,000 gp value of the base price. Item Creation Feat Required Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Marcus Majarra 01-07-06, 05:47 PM	Actually, the entries of both the various item creation feats as well as the entries of item creation itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm; the online SRD) plainly read that you must have the appropriate item creation feat to create such an item - for instance: [...] Actually, neither of the examples you listed restricts the need for the Item Creation feat to the creator. The descriptions for each and every item creation feat states that the feat allows the character to create the appropriate magic items. However, this ability is not necessarily restricted to the character with the feat. Additionally, the SRD states that those item creation feats are required for creating magic items, though it is not stated that the item's creator must be the one providing the feat in the case of collaborated creations.
metrocube 01-07-06, 09:06 PM	According to the RAW, there are three conditions for being the creator of a magic item: • The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level. The RAW has changed, as per the DMG 3.5 errata: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. Thus, if you make the magic item yourself, the minimum CL required is merely that of the highest-level spell involved in its creation. I remember reading one of the designers say that the CL of a magic item as printed in the DMG or any other sourcebook is a default caster level of found items (as loot, bought, etc.). I'll try to dig up the source.
Raven Dark 01-07-06, 09:28 PM	By RAW the person with the item creation feat pays the XP. From the SRD Brew Potion [Item Creation] Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd. Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price. When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell. Any potion that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when creating the potion. Notice the emphasized wording in the text. Item creation feats are VERY specific as to who pays the XP cost. If both people working on the item have the feat in question, it is up to the DM. In that case I would rule that one person or the other pays the costs and they would be considered the creator.
Raven Dark 01-07-06, 09:37 PM	I just read in the DMG that two or more PCs can collaborate on the creation of a magic item. That is cool. Does that mean that if my cleric finds a wizard that the tow of them can create divine scrolls together? Absolutley. If the Cleric doesn't have Scribe Scroll, he can have the group's wizard make him divine scrolls if he supplies the spells. The wizard is left paying all the costs, however. Usually, some kind of beneficial arrangement is made beforehand. :)
Marcus Majarra 01-08-06, 02:06 AM	The RAW has changed, as per the DMG 3.5 errata: Thus, if you make the magic item yourself, the minimum CL required is merely that of the highest-level spell involved in its creation. I remember reading one of the designers say that the CL of a magic item as printed in the DMG or any other sourcebook is a default caster level of found items (as loot, bought, etc.). I'll try to dig up the source. That doesn't change the fact that the creator's CL must be at least as high as the item's CL. As for Raven Dark, your citation is accurate only in the context of employing the feat as the only means of being an item's creator. In other words, the feat merely grants you the ability to be a creator for a given type of item, but this benefit is not exclusive to possessors of the feat, in the case of joint creations. As per page 215 of the DMG, the creator is determined according to the conditions I listed above, fior collaborated creations or otherwise.