Combat casting and 5-foot step [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat casting and 5-foot step [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cato
05-17-07, 05:57 AM Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ? Is it only for 5ft+ reach creatures?

Also, can you take a 5-foot step while staggered?
CantripN
05-17-07, 06:07 AM Well, you can't always move around the battlefield, nor do you always want to.
runestar
05-17-07, 06:53 AM Yeah, reach is the main reason.
I think there is also a feat which makes you provoke an AoO if you try to make a 5-ft step or something. So it is not necessarily foolproof.:P
Kouk
05-17-07, 08:57 PM Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ? Is it only for 5ft+ reach creatures?

Also, can you take a 5-foot step while staggered?

Hmm, if you are flanked normally you can't just 5 ft. step to complete safety, let alone if you are surrounded.

Your back might be to a wall (or a cliff) and that would not be ideal to step in that direction. If a monster is between you and your party members, you may not want to keep stepping backwards and getting further away from help, or approaching another enemy.
tyrecian
05-17-07, 09:21 PM Reach and positioning in fights have already been discussed. You also have to think about terrain. Often there will be fights in the rubble of an ancient sewer, thick forest, etc. where you cannot take 5' steps because movement is doubled through the terrain.

Also there is the issue of movement. You cannot take a 5' step if you have moved around already in the round, and find you need to cast a spell (mainly for clerics). Casting defensively can help a great deal, it is the only way in the game (i know of) that is a free negation of an AoO (tumble is movement).

From the SRD:
"Staggered
A character whose nonlethal damage exactly equals his current hit points is staggered. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions).

A character whose current hit points exceed his nonlethal damage is no longer staggered; a character whose nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points becomes unconscious."

so yes you could take a 5' step as part of a standard action, but you would not be able to move afterwards, and you couldnt take a 5' step and then move, since you only get one.
Merestil Haye
05-18-07, 12:50 AM Another reason is that the spell you are casting may have a range of Touch; in which case, stepping 5' away from your target and casting is counterproductive because you would have to wait until next turn to deliver the spell, meaning he gets a whole round of actions.
cato
05-18-07, 01:26 AM so yes you could take a 5' step as part of a standard action, but you would not be able to move afterwards, and you couldnt take a 5' step and then move, since you only get one.

Hrm a guy from another post referred to page 304 of phb which says:

You cant take a 5foot step if you are hampered in any way, and you must have both your move and your action available in a round in order to do it.
Nom
05-18-07, 01:57 AM Actually, it says no such thing. It says that you can take a 5 ft. step at any point in the round, and lists the parenthetical example of before, after or between a movement and standard action to clarify "at any point".

At least he was thorough enough to put a page reference so you could see that he'd misread the rules.
cato
05-18-07, 02:37 AM Still it is logical to interpret "staggered" as a hampering condition, isnt it?
Merestil Haye
05-18-07, 10:13 AM Still it is logical to interpret "staggered" as a hampering condition, isnt it?I'd say that it is dangerous to apply logic to D&D without first checking to make sure that the words used don't have some meaning in D&D.

Hampered is not defined in the glossary. In this sort of context it means that movement is impeded. The staggered condition does not impede movement - it just reduces the number of times you can take a move action.

Thus the answer would appear to be no, a staggered creature is not suffering from hampered movement.
BW0222
05-18-07, 11:22 AM cato,

Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ?

First, there are lots of cases when you can not take a 5' step.

1. You are cornered.

2. Your opponent has reach.

3. Other creatures are nearby such that a 5' step moves you into their threatened areas.

4. Movement is happened -- grease, rough terrain, etc.

5. You are prone.

6. You have say moved and then readied an action to cast a spell, and yet something moves next to you before your readied action triggers. (And you still want to cast).
etc., etc.

Second, there are times you don't want to take the 5' step because it is tactically better not to, even if one is available.

7. You wish to deliver a touch spell against someone currently next to you.

8. You want to maximize the effectiveness of various cone spells. Say a burning hands spell. Stepping back 5' may mean only getting one creature rather than two or three.

9. You need the move action to get away. For example, goblins are racing around you. You wish to cast a color spray and then move back behind a fighter. If you 5' step, you might get the spell off, but you then can't move back and you know that the surviving goblins will swarm you.

10. You suspect invisible creatures are around or aren't sure of the reach of some creatures.

11. The only 5' squares might put you in a possition which causes issues for other party members -- i.e. prevents the fighter from charging, prevents the rogue from getting into a flank, prevents an archer from 5' stepping back also, etc.

12. That 5' step might put you into a bad position for the rest of the round -- for example, close enough that a fighter can 5' step and full attack you, in a position where someone can drop an AoO spell on you without hitting his friends.

13. Sometimes you don't wish to be more than 5' away from your opponents. For example, if you have a weapon out (or a touch spell going) you can get AoOs off of archers or other spellcasters -- or force them to cast defensively.

Normally, you can get away without combat casting until 5th or so. By that point, you will like start running into enough cases where you are unable or unwilling to take that 5' step.
cato
05-18-07, 11:43 AM Wont argue against all those conditions (having used cast defensively myself in numerous occasions - not sure about prone 5 foot steps though) but still the value of defensive casting is lessened significantly, especially after some stages of the game where combat starts to get 3 dimensional..

It just seems kinda strange if you have a warrior with 2 weapons in front of you in live combat for you to go: just a moment: move back and cast the spell unhindered.. wouldn't the warrior stay close to you at all times in a realistic combat situation?

I have played with a couple of DMs that had custom rules for this (such as giving the option for the warrior to make his 5 foot step at any time), but i was hoping there would be a more Solid rules explanation for this.
Lord_Vladamir_Vermagnuson
05-18-07, 11:53 AM It is useful when you wish to cast a spell and then get the heck out of the way of the multiple-attack-juggernut that is frothing at the mouth in anticipation for his opportunity to mimmick your characters 5 foot step and then open a can of whoop-ass on said character.

As a DM, I would love to have the group's wizard 5' step and cast a spell. My multiple-attack-bad-guy would 5' step next to the wizard and then destroy him with the full attack option.

However, if the spell caster combat casts - he gets to use his full movement rate. Thus, removing a deadly full attack retaliation, and possibly stopping the enemy from pursuit (especially if the unarmed caster has a higher movement rate than the heavily armored and movement encumbered bad guy).
Asmodeur
05-18-07, 12:03 PM ..... It just seems kinda strange if you have a warrior with 2 weapons in front of you in live combat for you to go: just a moment: move back and cast the spell unhindered.. wouldn't the warrior stay close to you at all times in a realistic combat situation? ...

If the warrior has an attack readied for when you start casting, he can take a 5' step to close the distance. From the SRD: "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready
cato
05-18-07, 12:12 PM It is useful when you wish to cast a spell and then get the heck out of the way of the multiple-attack-juggernut that is frothing at the mouth in anticipation for his opportunity to mimmick your characters 5 foot step and then open a can of whoop-ass on said character.

As a DM, I would love to have the group's wizard 5' step and cast a spell. My multiple-attack-bad-guy would 5' step next to the wizard and then destroy him with the full attack option.

However, if the spell caster combat casts - he gets to use his full movement rate. Thus, removing a deadly full attack retaliation, and possibly stopping the enemy from pursuit (especially if the unarmed caster has a higher movement rate than the heavily armored and movement encumbered bad guy).

Assuming that the wizard wont just make a 5 foot step and then cast his utterly debilitating to your warrior spell..
Lord_Vladamir_Vermagnuson
05-18-07, 12:31 PM It need not be a warrior, it could be a monster or whatever. I seriously doubt that the low to mid-range spell caster has a single spell that would cripple an enemy in one round. But hey, it's your character's life. If he wants to risk that life for an all or nothing spell while stepping 5' away from doom (rather than retreating to safety and then casting his one glorious spell) that is his perrogative.

I suppose wizards are intelligent rather than wise. . . .
ezogoul
05-18-07, 07:22 PM You have to be able to reach your opponent with those nasty touch spells, unless you have a way of making touch spells ranged touch, So stepping out of threatened squares is not always possible.

Combat casting is a Joke, and shouldn't be taken unless it is a prerequisite for your PRC.

Combat casting +4 to concentration for casting defensively.
Skill focus: Concentration +3 on all concentration tests.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cato 05-17-07, 05:57 AM	Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ? Is it only for 5ft+ reach creatures? Also, can you take a 5-foot step while staggered?
CantripN 05-17-07, 06:07 AM	Well, you can't always move around the battlefield, nor do you always want to.
runestar 05-17-07, 06:53 AM	Yeah, reach is the main reason. I think there is also a feat which makes you provoke an AoO if you try to make a 5-ft step or something. So it is not necessarily foolproof.:P
Kouk 05-17-07, 08:57 PM	Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ? Is it only for 5ft+ reach creatures? Also, can you take a 5-foot step while staggered? Hmm, if you are flanked normally you can't just 5 ft. step to complete safety, let alone if you are surrounded. Your back might be to a wall (or a cliff) and that would not be ideal to step in that direction. If a monster is between you and your party members, you may not want to keep stepping backwards and getting further away from help, or approaching another enemy.
tyrecian 05-17-07, 09:21 PM	Reach and positioning in fights have already been discussed. You also have to think about terrain. Often there will be fights in the rubble of an ancient sewer, thick forest, etc. where you cannot take 5' steps because movement is doubled through the terrain. Also there is the issue of movement. You cannot take a 5' step if you have moved around already in the round, and find you need to cast a spell (mainly for clerics). Casting defensively can help a great deal, it is the only way in the game (i know of) that is a free negation of an AoO (tumble is movement). From the SRD: "Staggered A character whose nonlethal damage exactly equals his current hit points is staggered. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). A character whose current hit points exceed his nonlethal damage is no longer staggered; a character whose nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points becomes unconscious." so yes you could take a 5' step as part of a standard action, but you would not be able to move afterwards, and you couldnt take a 5' step and then move, since you only get one.
Merestil Haye 05-18-07, 12:50 AM	Another reason is that the spell you are casting may have a range of Touch; in which case, stepping 5' away from your target and casting is counterproductive because you would have to wait until next turn to deliver the spell, meaning he gets a whole round of actions.
cato 05-18-07, 01:26 AM	so yes you could take a 5' step as part of a standard action, but you would not be able to move afterwards, and you couldnt take a 5' step and then move, since you only get one. Hrm a guy from another post referred to page 304 of phb which says: You cant take a 5foot step if you are hampered in any way, and you must have both your move and your action available in a round in order to do it.
Nom 05-18-07, 01:57 AM	Actually, it says no such thing. It says that you can take a 5 ft. step at any point in the round, and lists the parenthetical example of before, after or between a movement and standard action to clarify "at any point". At least he was thorough enough to put a page reference so you could see that he'd misread the rules.
cato 05-18-07, 02:37 AM	Still it is logical to interpret "staggered" as a hampering condition, isnt it?
Merestil Haye 05-18-07, 10:13 AM	Still it is logical to interpret "staggered" as a hampering condition, isnt it?I'd say that it is dangerous to apply logic to D&D without first checking to make sure that the words used don't have some meaning in D&D. Hampered is not defined in the glossary. In this sort of context it means that movement is impeded. The staggered condition does not impede movement - it just reduces the number of times you can take a move action. Thus the answer would appear to be no, a staggered creature is not suffering from hampered movement.
BW0222 05-18-07, 11:22 AM	cato, Really whats the point of casting defensively since you can just take a 5-foot step and cast out of reach ? First, there are lots of cases when you can not take a 5' step. 1. You are cornered. 2. Your opponent has reach. 3. Other creatures are nearby such that a 5' step moves you into their threatened areas. 4. Movement is happened -- grease, rough terrain, etc. 5. You are prone. 6. You have say moved and then readied an action to cast a spell, and yet something moves next to you before your readied action triggers. (And you still want to cast). etc., etc. Second, there are times you don't want to take the 5' step because it is tactically better not to, even if one is available. 7. You wish to deliver a touch spell against someone currently next to you. 8. You want to maximize the effectiveness of various cone spells. Say a burning hands spell. Stepping back 5' may mean only getting one creature rather than two or three. 9. You need the move action to get away. For example, goblins are racing around you. You wish to cast a color spray and then move back behind a fighter. If you 5' step, you might get the spell off, but you then can't move back and you know that the surviving goblins will swarm you. 10. You suspect invisible creatures are around or aren't sure of the reach of some creatures. 11. The only 5' squares might put you in a possition which causes issues for other party members -- i.e. prevents the fighter from charging, prevents the rogue from getting into a flank, prevents an archer from 5' stepping back also, etc. 12. That 5' step might put you into a bad position for the rest of the round -- for example, close enough that a fighter can 5' step and full attack you, in a position where someone can drop an AoO spell on you without hitting his friends. 13. Sometimes you don't wish to be more than 5' away from your opponents. For example, if you have a weapon out (or a touch spell going) you can get AoOs off of archers or other spellcasters -- or force them to cast defensively. Normally, you can get away without combat casting until 5th or so. By that point, you will like start running into enough cases where you are unable or unwilling to take that 5' step.
cato 05-18-07, 11:43 AM	Wont argue against all those conditions (having used cast defensively myself in numerous occasions - not sure about prone 5 foot steps though) but still the value of defensive casting is lessened significantly, especially after some stages of the game where combat starts to get 3 dimensional.. It just seems kinda strange if you have a warrior with 2 weapons in front of you in live combat for you to go: just a moment: move back and cast the spell unhindered.. wouldn't the warrior stay close to you at all times in a realistic combat situation? I have played with a couple of DMs that had custom rules for this (such as giving the option for the warrior to make his 5 foot step at any time), but i was hoping there would be a more Solid rules explanation for this.
Lord_Vladamir_Vermagnuson 05-18-07, 11:53 AM	It is useful when you wish to cast a spell and then get the heck out of the way of the multiple-attack-juggernut that is frothing at the mouth in anticipation for his opportunity to mimmick your characters 5 foot step and then open a can of whoop-ass on said character. As a DM, I would love to have the group's wizard 5' step and cast a spell. My multiple-attack-bad-guy would 5' step next to the wizard and then destroy him with the full attack option. However, if the spell caster combat casts - he gets to use his full movement rate. Thus, removing a deadly full attack retaliation, and possibly stopping the enemy from pursuit (especially if the unarmed caster has a higher movement rate than the heavily armored and movement encumbered bad guy).
Asmodeur 05-18-07, 12:03 PM	..... It just seems kinda strange if you have a warrior with 2 weapons in front of you in live combat for you to go: just a moment: move back and cast the spell unhindered.. wouldn't the warrior stay close to you at all times in a realistic combat situation? ... If the warrior has an attack readied for when you start casting, he can take a 5' step to close the distance. From the SRD: "You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round." http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready
cato 05-18-07, 12:12 PM	It is useful when you wish to cast a spell and then get the heck out of the way of the multiple-attack-juggernut that is frothing at the mouth in anticipation for his opportunity to mimmick your characters 5 foot step and then open a can of whoop-ass on said character. As a DM, I would love to have the group's wizard 5' step and cast a spell. My multiple-attack-bad-guy would 5' step next to the wizard and then destroy him with the full attack option. However, if the spell caster combat casts - he gets to use his full movement rate. Thus, removing a deadly full attack retaliation, and possibly stopping the enemy from pursuit (especially if the unarmed caster has a higher movement rate than the heavily armored and movement encumbered bad guy). Assuming that the wizard wont just make a 5 foot step and then cast his utterly debilitating to your warrior spell..
Lord_Vladamir_Vermagnuson 05-18-07, 12:31 PM	It need not be a warrior, it could be a monster or whatever. I seriously doubt that the low to mid-range spell caster has a single spell that would cripple an enemy in one round. But hey, it's your character's life. If he wants to risk that life for an all or nothing spell while stepping 5' away from doom (rather than retreating to safety and then casting his one glorious spell) that is his perrogative. I suppose wizards are intelligent rather than wise. . . .
ezogoul 05-18-07, 07:22 PM	You have to be able to reach your opponent with those nasty touch spells, unless you have a way of making touch spells ranged touch, So stepping out of threatened squares is not always possible. Combat casting is a Joke, and shouldn't be taken unless it is a prerequisite for your PRC. Combat casting +4 to concentration for casting defensively. Skill focus: Concentration +3 on all concentration tests.