Combining metamagic rods with metamagic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining metamagic rods with metamagic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Perun
10-17-04, 04:51 AM We had this discussion last session. The wizard in our party has the least version of the rod of maximise spell (the one that affects spells of up to 3rd-level). When he prepares a 3rd-level spell with the Empower Spell feat, it takes up a 5th-level slot. Could the said empowered spell then be maximised with the rod? We had both supporters and opponents of the theory in the party, and both sides had decent arguments.

I can swear I saw it being discussed somewhere, but i can't remember where. I skimmed through the official FAQ, but didn't find it. Does anyone know if there's a ruling, hopefully official, or coming from the game designers, on this?
Mentar
10-17-04, 06:00 AM On the skills and feats page there was a similar question, the answer in a nutshell was: Any spell enhanced with a metamagic feat is now considered to have the new spell level for the use of adding other abilities to it. Adding the new metamagic adjustment to the adjusted level of the spell.

A four page discussion is under the heading "Heighten spell with other metamagic feats"
kSquared
10-17-04, 07:49 AM Any discussion will probably end pretty quickly once you read the description of metamagic rods.

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.Note that it says spells, not spell slots. A 5th level spell (e.g., cone of cold, wall of force) is something entirely different from a 5th-level spell slot (e.g., cone of cold, wall of force, as well as empowered fireball, heightened charm person).

Given the above, my contention is that it doesn't matter how many metamagic feats you apply to a given spell, for purposes of determining whether a metamagic rod can be applied to it. Metamagic feats do not change a spell's level; a maximized empowered fireball is still a 3rd-level spell, so it can be affected by a lesser metamagic rod of enlarge spell.
Heron_Marked_Blade
10-17-04, 02:58 PM This goes back once again to my contention that Wizards needs to clarify their use of the term "spell level". There are numerous instances of their using "spell level" to refer to either the spell slot level, or the spell level, two completely different things. This discussion is a case in point.
Perun
10-22-04, 01:41 AM FWIW, I asked the Wizards customer service, and got the following reply:Q:The first one deals with metamagic feats and metamagic rods. I'll best explain through an example. Let's say a wizard prepares an empowered fireball, using up one of his 5th-level spell slots. Could he then use his lesser rod of maximise spell (which affects only spells of 3rd level or lower) on that empowered fireball (which takes up a 5th-level slot). I couldn't find any definitive ruling on this one, and it has come up in our campaign.

A:- Yes, you can do this.
tarkin
10-22-04, 01:29 PM Wow. Customer Service actually got one right. Amazing.

Also note, when you maximize and empower a fireball spell, you get:

60 + 10d6/2

Not a straight 90 points of damage.

Metamagic feats rarely stack (Common exception is extend)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perun 10-17-04, 04:51 AM	We had this discussion last session. The wizard in our party has the least version of the rod of maximise spell (the one that affects spells of up to 3rd-level). When he prepares a 3rd-level spell with the Empower Spell feat, it takes up a 5th-level slot. Could the said empowered spell then be maximised with the rod? We had both supporters and opponents of the theory in the party, and both sides had decent arguments. I can swear I saw it being discussed somewhere, but i can't remember where. I skimmed through the official FAQ, but didn't find it. Does anyone know if there's a ruling, hopefully official, or coming from the game designers, on this?
Mentar 10-17-04, 06:00 AM	On the skills and feats page there was a similar question, the answer in a nutshell was: Any spell enhanced with a metamagic feat is now considered to have the new spell level for the use of adding other abilities to it. Adding the new metamagic adjustment to the adjusted level of the spell. A four page discussion is under the heading "Heighten spell with other metamagic feats"
kSquared 10-17-04, 07:49 AM	Any discussion will probably end pretty quickly once you read the description of metamagic rods. Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.Note that it says spells, not spell slots. A 5th level spell (e.g., cone of cold, wall of force) is something entirely different from a 5th-level spell slot (e.g., cone of cold, wall of force, as well as empowered fireball, heightened charm person). Given the above, my contention is that it doesn't matter how many metamagic feats you apply to a given spell, for purposes of determining whether a metamagic rod can be applied to it. Metamagic feats do not change a spell's level; a maximized empowered fireball is still a 3rd-level spell, so it can be affected by a lesser metamagic rod of enlarge spell.
Heron_Marked_Blade 10-17-04, 02:58 PM	This goes back once again to my contention that Wizards needs to clarify their use of the term "spell level". There are numerous instances of their using "spell level" to refer to either the spell slot level, or the spell level, two completely different things. This discussion is a case in point.
Perun 10-22-04, 01:41 AM	FWIW, I asked the Wizards customer service, and got the following reply:Q:The first one deals with metamagic feats and metamagic rods. I'll best explain through an example. Let's say a wizard prepares an empowered fireball, using up one of his 5th-level spell slots. Could he then use his lesser rod of maximise spell (which affects only spells of 3rd level or lower) on that empowered fireball (which takes up a 5th-level slot). I couldn't find any definitive ruling on this one, and it has come up in our campaign. A:- Yes, you can do this.
tarkin 10-22-04, 01:29 PM	Wow. Customer Service actually got one right. Amazing. Also note, when you maximize and empower a fireball spell, you get: 60 + 10d6/2 Not a straight 90 points of damage. Metamagic feats rarely stack (Common exception is extend)