Combining spells…ever thought about it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining spells…ever thought about it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DnD Master1586
12-13-03, 11:24 PM Combining spells…ever thought about it?

While browsing through some online fantasy artwork I came across a painting of three wizards combining their spells in a beautiful display of magical prowess.

Then I thought…

It would be friggin’ (pardon my French :D) awesome to combine spells in D&D (man, I hope there aren’t already rules for this or else this thread was a big waste of time :(). It seems possible, I don’t see why not!

When I first started imagining this, the image of the fusion dance between Goten and Trunks to form Gotenks (for all of you DBZ fans it might give you a better idea of what I’m thinking of) popped into my head.

Two or more wizards performing complicated somatic gestures and chants (maybe in unison?) with the intent to produce a more potent magical force is not going to be an easy task.

I figured it would make the most sense to break combinations down into the following categories:

- Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA

This combination consists of two or more identical spells that are cast together in order to create a more potent form of the original spells. For example, if two wizards were to perform a combined fireball it would be twice as powerful.

- Spell A + Spell B = Spell AB

This combination consists of two of more different spells that are cast together in order to produce a spell with the stacked abilities of both spells.

- Spell A + Spell B = Spell C

This combination consists of two or more different spells that are cast together in order to produce a completely different, yet extremely potent, spell.

Because combining spells can be very powerful, there has to be something to balance it all out. There of course would have to be prerequisites for those who wanted use such a powerful ability, and not to mention…a crap load of penalties.

Here is a list of some prerequisites that just came off the top of my head:

- Two or more Spell casters

- Spell casters must belong to the same specialized school

- Maybe a feat for combination casting (all casters should be able to perform this ability without the feat but with an added penalty)?

- An Int of 16 or more, maybe?

- Maybe a prestige class or more related feats could enhance the ability to combine spells with others.

Also, there will have to be rules for performing a feat like this:

Since a more complex ritual needs to be preformed all DCs for spell casting should probably be modified in some way, shape, or form. New rolls may even need to be added.

If anyone has any ideas they would like to add please do, I’m not very experienced with game mechanic balance.

What do you guys think?

P.S.: Please forgive me if there are already rules for this, it would certainly defeat the purpose of this most ignorant thread. :D
Addi83
12-13-03, 11:32 PM Well, for one there isn't much difference between what you described and two wizards simply casting their spells at the same target at the same time.

Some prestige classes have casting circles, like the witches of Halruua (or whatever) and the Red wizards of Thay in the forgotten realms, where lower level wizards, perhaps apprentices of the circle leader, can join together to boost spells cast by the leader, increasing save DC and giving various other boosts.
thalious
12-13-03, 11:38 PM I think there are some rules already covered in the PHB dealing with wizards joining their casting for a single spell.

As for combining different spells from different casters, I don't see why it could not work. Each caster would just need to act in unison. Each spell would still use the specific casters DC. Really the effect would be that the targets would get hit by each spell at the same time.
WizO_Catoblepas
12-13-03, 11:47 PM This belongs on the Spells and Magic Items board. I'll move it there.
DnD Master1586
12-14-03, 12:04 AM Originally posted by Addi83
Well, for one there isn't much difference between what you described and two wizards simply casting their spells at the same target at the same time.

Some prestige classes have casting circles, like the witches of Halruua (or whatever) and the Red wizards of Thay in the forgotten realms, where lower level wizards, perhaps apprentices of the circle leader, can join together to boost spells cast by the leader, increasing save DC and giving various other boosts.
My idea behind the combined effect (Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA) was that the combination would be more powerful then the two individual spells alone.

As for the stacking of abilities between two different spells (Spell A + Spell B = Spell AB), the idea was that the combination would be more powerful and maybe even slightly different then the two individual spells alone.

Also, a wizard could help another wizard perform a normal spell reducing the spell's difficulty to cast and maintain.

Like you said about the Red wizards of Thay, if you had the ability as a spell caster to combine spells you could do exactly as they could...boosting others spells and such.

Originally posted by thalious
As for combining different spells from different casters, I don't see why it could not work. Each caster would just need to act in unison. Each spell would still use the specific casters DC. Really the effect would be that the targets would get hit by each spell at the same time.
That is also another benefit that I forgot to mention. Combining spells cannot only increase the range and damage of the original spells but the sheer fact that you are casting two spells in one full turn can provide a huge advantage in combat.

Dan
thalious
12-14-03, 03:04 AM I really don't see how a wizard casting one spell could gain strength or higher DC and Damages just because they cast in ceremony or unison with another caster casting a completely different spell. Perhaps if the spells were of the same schools or otherwise compatible. Maybe a spell circle with spell pool users could accomplish what you have in mind? Ultimately, the DM will have to decide cause I don't think I have seen any official rules for what you want to get done.
Seeker95
12-14-03, 10:05 AM I would not allow the first two methods of spell stacking.
But I would consider the third:
Spell A + Spell B = Effect C

For example:
Gust of Wind + Ice Storm = Driving Hail
When two wizards use these spells in tandem, the resulting maelstrom increases the damage normally caused by the ice storm by +1 per die of damage.
-or-
When two wizards use these spells in tandem, the resulting maelstrom increases the radius normally affected by the ice storm by 5' (one square) -- from 20' radius to 25' radius -- as the winds throw the hail faster and farther than gravity normally would.
UZI
12-15-03, 08:29 AM Some Epic Level spells require rituals with multiple casters.
BlackSmith
12-15-03, 08:43 AM Originally posted by DnD Master1586
- Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA

This combination consists of two or more identical spells that are cast together in order to create a more potent form of the original spells. For example, if two wizards were to perform a combined fireball it would be twice as powerful. [/B] T&B has the cooperative feat that does just that.
MachinaDeus
11-15-04, 08:02 PM The Cooperative Spell Metamagic feat in T&B, and the now, Complete Arcane, allows multiple spellcasters to enhance a single spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DnD Master1586 12-13-03, 11:24 PM	Combining spells…ever thought about it? While browsing through some online fantasy artwork I came across a painting of three wizards combining their spells in a beautiful display of magical prowess. Then I thought… It would be friggin’ (pardon my French :D) awesome to combine spells in D&D (man, I hope there aren’t already rules for this or else this thread was a big waste of time :(). It seems possible, I don’t see why not! When I first started imagining this, the image of the fusion dance between Goten and Trunks to form Gotenks (for all of you DBZ fans it might give you a better idea of what I’m thinking of) popped into my head. Two or more wizards performing complicated somatic gestures and chants (maybe in unison?) with the intent to produce a more potent magical force is not going to be an easy task. I figured it would make the most sense to break combinations down into the following categories: - Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA This combination consists of two or more identical spells that are cast together in order to create a more potent form of the original spells. For example, if two wizards were to perform a combined fireball it would be twice as powerful. - Spell A + Spell B = Spell AB This combination consists of two of more different spells that are cast together in order to produce a spell with the stacked abilities of both spells. - Spell A + Spell B = Spell C This combination consists of two or more different spells that are cast together in order to produce a completely different, yet extremely potent, spell. Because combining spells can be very powerful, there has to be something to balance it all out. There of course would have to be prerequisites for those who wanted use such a powerful ability, and not to mention…a crap load of penalties. Here is a list of some prerequisites that just came off the top of my head: - Two or more Spell casters - Spell casters must belong to the same specialized school - Maybe a feat for combination casting (all casters should be able to perform this ability without the feat but with an added penalty)? - An Int of 16 or more, maybe? - Maybe a prestige class or more related feats could enhance the ability to combine spells with others. Also, there will have to be rules for performing a feat like this: Since a more complex ritual needs to be preformed all DCs for spell casting should probably be modified in some way, shape, or form. New rolls may even need to be added. If anyone has any ideas they would like to add please do, I’m not very experienced with game mechanic balance. What do you guys think? P.S.: Please forgive me if there are already rules for this, it would certainly defeat the purpose of this most ignorant thread. :D
Addi83 12-13-03, 11:32 PM	Well, for one there isn't much difference between what you described and two wizards simply casting their spells at the same target at the same time. Some prestige classes have casting circles, like the witches of Halruua (or whatever) and the Red wizards of Thay in the forgotten realms, where lower level wizards, perhaps apprentices of the circle leader, can join together to boost spells cast by the leader, increasing save DC and giving various other boosts.
thalious 12-13-03, 11:38 PM	I think there are some rules already covered in the PHB dealing with wizards joining their casting for a single spell. As for combining different spells from different casters, I don't see why it could not work. Each caster would just need to act in unison. Each spell would still use the specific casters DC. Really the effect would be that the targets would get hit by each spell at the same time.
WizO_Catoblepas 12-13-03, 11:47 PM	This belongs on the Spells and Magic Items board. I'll move it there.
DnD Master1586 12-14-03, 12:04 AM	Originally posted by Addi83 Well, for one there isn't much difference between what you described and two wizards simply casting their spells at the same target at the same time. Some prestige classes have casting circles, like the witches of Halruua (or whatever) and the Red wizards of Thay in the forgotten realms, where lower level wizards, perhaps apprentices of the circle leader, can join together to boost spells cast by the leader, increasing save DC and giving various other boosts. My idea behind the combined effect (Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA) was that the combination would be more powerful then the two individual spells alone. As for the stacking of abilities between two different spells (Spell A + Spell B = Spell AB), the idea was that the combination would be more powerful and maybe even slightly different then the two individual spells alone. Also, a wizard could help another wizard perform a normal spell reducing the spell's difficulty to cast and maintain. Like you said about the Red wizards of Thay, if you had the ability as a spell caster to combine spells you could do exactly as they could...boosting others spells and such. Originally posted by thalious As for combining different spells from different casters, I don't see why it could not work. Each caster would just need to act in unison. Each spell would still use the specific casters DC. Really the effect would be that the targets would get hit by each spell at the same time. That is also another benefit that I forgot to mention. Combining spells cannot only increase the range and damage of the original spells but the sheer fact that you are casting two spells in one full turn can provide a huge advantage in combat. Dan
thalious 12-14-03, 03:04 AM	I really don't see how a wizard casting one spell could gain strength or higher DC and Damages just because they cast in ceremony or unison with another caster casting a completely different spell. Perhaps if the spells were of the same schools or otherwise compatible. Maybe a spell circle with spell pool users could accomplish what you have in mind? Ultimately, the DM will have to decide cause I don't think I have seen any official rules for what you want to get done.
Seeker95 12-14-03, 10:05 AM	I would not allow the first two methods of spell stacking. But I would consider the third: Spell A + Spell B = Effect C For example: Gust of Wind + Ice Storm = Driving Hail When two wizards use these spells in tandem, the resulting maelstrom increases the damage normally caused by the ice storm by +1 per die of damage. -or- When two wizards use these spells in tandem, the resulting maelstrom increases the radius normally affected by the ice storm by 5' (one square) -- from 20' radius to 25' radius -- as the winds throw the hail faster and farther than gravity normally would.
UZI 12-15-03, 08:29 AM	Some Epic Level spells require rituals with multiple casters.
BlackSmith 12-15-03, 08:43 AM	Originally posted by DnD Master1586 - Spell A + Spell A = Spell AA This combination consists of two or more identical spells that are cast together in order to create a more potent form of the original spells. For example, if two wizards were to perform a combined fireball it would be twice as powerful. [/B] T&B has the cooperative feat that does just that.
MachinaDeus 11-15-04, 08:02 PM	The Cooperative Spell Metamagic feat in T&B, and the now, Complete Arcane, allows multiple spellcasters to enhance a single spell.