Combining wish/miracle with a tome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining wish/miracle with a tome? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Asmodeous
02-23-04, 12:53 AM Ok, Like most players out there, we all wish/hope/pray/bribe our Dm's to let our characters have one of these lovely books.
For my cleric, that dream has finally come true in the form of a +4 tome of manual exercise, err, forgot its exact title but it grants +4 to Constitution.

Good as it is, the character would like to see the maximuim benefit from reading it. My characters original con is 14. middle aging adjusted to 13, then bumped back up to 14 from a wish/miracle spell. This means that reading the tome will grant a +3 to con, for a final score of 17, and extra +1 to hit point adjustment, skill checks and fort saves.

Nice boost which i wont say no to, but it would be nice to pip the extra +1 in as well to get a final con score of 18, for +2 extra.
My character, a level 20 cleric has access to the miracle spell. Her exp is 10,000 over 20 level so she can actually cast 2 miracle spells currently.
She does not have the craft wonderous feat.

Now for the stinkly obvious question you know this thread is all about?

How can I get the extra +1 from reading the tome? Happily willing to cast the miracle and pay 5,000xp for it. chance of trading +4 for +5 tome is out of the question.

1). carefully worded miracle That would grant me an extra +1 to con at the same time as the benefits of the tome effects take place.
2). cast a miracle directly on the tome itself, asking for the book to be changed from a +4 to +5.
3). hiring a npc with the craft wonderous items feat and providing the miracle spell component. Not sure if you can actually craft a tome after it has been created and increase its effect like recrafting a +1 sword into a +2 sword by paying the difference in crafting costs.
4). another possible way?

Thanks for your responses!
BlaineTog
02-23-04, 01:08 AM I'd say just use a Miracle for it, then read the book. Or the other way around.
Rhys23
02-23-04, 01:22 AM This really comes down to what your DM will allow.

I personally would have no problem with you spending the 5,000XP to "up" the Tome to a +5. The cost difference is only 1,250gp. The experience difference is 5,100XP. As you can see the XP difference is almost exactly what you would spend on your miracle.

Perhaps you could convince your DM to allow you to make divine offerings when you cast the miracle. These "offerings" could then consist of valuables equalling the gp difference.

Just a thought.

P.S. These numbers are from 3.0. I do not own a 3.5 book, nor do I play 3.5, so if the numbers are different, ignore my post.
Asmodeous
02-23-04, 01:39 AM My dm is the logical type. he allows re crafting of weapons and armor simply by paying the extra gold/exp cost for the improvement because nothing physical changes with the armor. Its masterworks no matter what + it is.
He vies tome differently as they are a book, containing a complete "story" that must be read in full to gain the benefit. because of this, the wish/ miracle is an instant effect where as reading a tome gives the reader the benefit spread over a number of days it takes to read the book so it cant be cast with a wish miracle because it cannot be cast immediately after the previous enhancement effect from the tome.

He views the book as an complete "story" that cannot be added into and that each level of tome +1, +2, +3, +4 etc are completely different to each other so nothing can be added in to gain the next benefit up.

Basically, I have to come up with a logical method of explaining the method i try to use to get the extra +1 with the book to get it past my dm other wise he will probably let me cast the miracle of whatever and either waste it with no effect or even possibly destroy the tome.

You might think its nasty, but thats our campaign. we can do what ever we like and reap the benefits/disasters of our actions.
Bhulkan
02-23-04, 04:39 AM The dmm says it's a story about excersises, how to life, eat etc, but between the lines there's magic infused. So when the book is read, the magic is used, but the story stays the same.

You can read it over and over, but the magic is gone.
There is no size or difference in length of the story mentioned for different books (+1,+2,+3, etc), so the story part doesn't matter.

That clears out the book being a whole story problem.
Upgrading the book would be like upgrading it's magical power, just like upgrading a longsword+1 to a longsword+2.
Rhys23
02-23-04, 03:09 PM Hmmm... well what about trying to use the "in succession" clause that is worded under wish? You read the tome, granting you the +4 inherent bonus (which overlaps your previous +1 inherent bonus) immediately followed by a miracle to raise the inherent bonus to +5.

Even at high, pre-epic levels, 5,000XP is a lot. Perhaps talk to your DM about undergoing a spiritual quest to allow the spell to work in succession with the tome.
Edymnion
02-23-04, 06:19 PM I believe you are overlooking the key part of what you are asking.
What is the Miracle spell? It is your cleric asking their god for direct intervention. They are essentially picking up the hotline to god, and asking him to come down and doing them a favor.

That is pretty darn powerful, having a little chit-chat with god.
Try this, cast your Miracle. Once you have your god's attention, offer them the tome you just aquired, and ask them to give you a higher boost in return.

If you can roleplay the encounter out well, perhaps by offering the Tome up to the god so that they may give it to someone who they cannot directly influence, you just may get your wish.

Remember though, the god can deny any request you make.
However, you only have to pay the xp if you are GRANTED a request that is above normal. You don't loose it if the god denies your request.

So, at worst, your god says no (which if you're lvl 20, you're one of the greatest forces for your god in the realm, so chances are he's going to be friendly towards your requests). At very worst, he gives you a little smack for wasting his time. At best, you get what you wanted. At more than best, the god is pleased at your suggestion and gives you a little something extra.
Asmodeous
02-24-04, 12:32 AM Originally posted by Edymnion
I believe you are overlooking the key part of what you are asking.
What is the Miracle spell? It is your cleric asking their god for direct intervention. They are essentially picking up the hotline to god, and asking him to come down and doing them a favor.

That is pretty darn powerful, having a little chit-chat with god.
Try this, cast your Miracle. Once you have your god's attention, offer them the tome you just aquired, and ask them to give you a higher boost in return.

If you can roleplay the encounter out well, perhaps by offering the Tome up to the god so that they may give it to someone who they cannot directly influence, you just may get your wish.

Remember though, the god can deny any request you make.
However, you only have to pay the xp if you are GRANTED a request that is above normal. You don't loose it if the god denies your request.

So, at worst, your god says no (which if you're lvl 20, you're one of the greatest forces for your god in the realm, so chances are he's going to be friendly towards your requests). At very worst, he gives you a little smack for wasting his time. At best, you get what you wanted. At more than best, the god is pleased at your suggestion and gives you a little something extra.

Now thats a good idea. Also, the whole reason the book will only give me +3 final benefit is because my con has had a +1 wish/miracle spell cast previously which will be over come by the effects of the tome, there should be a way my diety can rangle the situation for me as long as i'm her favorite priestess for the month!

Thanks for the post Edymnion!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asmodeous 02-23-04, 12:53 AM	Ok, Like most players out there, we all wish/hope/pray/bribe our Dm's to let our characters have one of these lovely books. For my cleric, that dream has finally come true in the form of a +4 tome of manual exercise, err, forgot its exact title but it grants +4 to Constitution. Good as it is, the character would like to see the maximuim benefit from reading it. My characters original con is 14. middle aging adjusted to 13, then bumped back up to 14 from a wish/miracle spell. This means that reading the tome will grant a +3 to con, for a final score of 17, and extra +1 to hit point adjustment, skill checks and fort saves. Nice boost which i wont say no to, but it would be nice to pip the extra +1 in as well to get a final con score of 18, for +2 extra. My character, a level 20 cleric has access to the miracle spell. Her exp is 10,000 over 20 level so she can actually cast 2 miracle spells currently. She does not have the craft wonderous feat. Now for the stinkly obvious question you know this thread is all about? How can I get the extra +1 from reading the tome? Happily willing to cast the miracle and pay 5,000xp for it. chance of trading +4 for +5 tome is out of the question. 1). carefully worded miracle That would grant me an extra +1 to con at the same time as the benefits of the tome effects take place. 2). cast a miracle directly on the tome itself, asking for the book to be changed from a +4 to +5. 3). hiring a npc with the craft wonderous items feat and providing the miracle spell component. Not sure if you can actually craft a tome after it has been created and increase its effect like recrafting a +1 sword into a +2 sword by paying the difference in crafting costs. 4). another possible way? Thanks for your responses!
BlaineTog 02-23-04, 01:08 AM	I'd say just use a Miracle for it, then read the book. Or the other way around.
Rhys23 02-23-04, 01:22 AM	This really comes down to what your DM will allow. I personally would have no problem with you spending the 5,000XP to "up" the Tome to a +5. The cost difference is only 1,250gp. The experience difference is 5,100XP. As you can see the XP difference is almost exactly what you would spend on your miracle. Perhaps you could convince your DM to allow you to make divine offerings when you cast the miracle. These "offerings" could then consist of valuables equalling the gp difference. Just a thought. P.S. These numbers are from 3.0. I do not own a 3.5 book, nor do I play 3.5, so if the numbers are different, ignore my post.
Asmodeous 02-23-04, 01:39 AM	My dm is the logical type. he allows re crafting of weapons and armor simply by paying the extra gold/exp cost for the improvement because nothing physical changes with the armor. Its masterworks no matter what + it is. He vies tome differently as they are a book, containing a complete "story" that must be read in full to gain the benefit. because of this, the wish/ miracle is an instant effect where as reading a tome gives the reader the benefit spread over a number of days it takes to read the book so it cant be cast with a wish miracle because it cannot be cast immediately after the previous enhancement effect from the tome. He views the book as an complete "story" that cannot be added into and that each level of tome +1, +2, +3, +4 etc are completely different to each other so nothing can be added in to gain the next benefit up. Basically, I have to come up with a logical method of explaining the method i try to use to get the extra +1 with the book to get it past my dm other wise he will probably let me cast the miracle of whatever and either waste it with no effect or even possibly destroy the tome. You might think its nasty, but thats our campaign. we can do what ever we like and reap the benefits/disasters of our actions.
Bhulkan 02-23-04, 04:39 AM	The dmm says it's a story about excersises, how to life, eat etc, but between the lines there's magic infused. So when the book is read, the magic is used, but the story stays the same. You can read it over and over, but the magic is gone. There is no size or difference in length of the story mentioned for different books (+1,+2,+3, etc), so the story part doesn't matter. That clears out the book being a whole story problem. Upgrading the book would be like upgrading it's magical power, just like upgrading a longsword+1 to a longsword+2.
Rhys23 02-23-04, 03:09 PM	Hmmm... well what about trying to use the "in succession" clause that is worded under wish? You read the tome, granting you the +4 inherent bonus (which overlaps your previous +1 inherent bonus) immediately followed by a miracle to raise the inherent bonus to +5. Even at high, pre-epic levels, 5,000XP is a lot. Perhaps talk to your DM about undergoing a spiritual quest to allow the spell to work in succession with the tome.
Edymnion 02-23-04, 06:19 PM	I believe you are overlooking the key part of what you are asking. What is the Miracle spell? It is your cleric asking their god for direct intervention. They are essentially picking up the hotline to god, and asking him to come down and doing them a favor. That is pretty darn powerful, having a little chit-chat with god. Try this, cast your Miracle. Once you have your god's attention, offer them the tome you just aquired, and ask them to give you a higher boost in return. If you can roleplay the encounter out well, perhaps by offering the Tome up to the god so that they may give it to someone who they cannot directly influence, you just may get your wish. Remember though, the god can deny any request you make. However, you only have to pay the xp if you are GRANTED a request that is above normal. You don't loose it if the god denies your request. So, at worst, your god says no (which if you're lvl 20, you're one of the greatest forces for your god in the realm, so chances are he's going to be friendly towards your requests). At very worst, he gives you a little smack for wasting his time. At best, you get what you wanted. At more than best, the god is pleased at your suggestion and gives you a little something extra.
Asmodeous 02-24-04, 12:32 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion I believe you are overlooking the key part of what you are asking. What is the Miracle spell? It is your cleric asking their god for direct intervention. They are essentially picking up the hotline to god, and asking him to come down and doing them a favor. That is pretty darn powerful, having a little chit-chat with god. Try this, cast your Miracle. Once you have your god's attention, offer them the tome you just aquired, and ask them to give you a higher boost in return. If you can roleplay the encounter out well, perhaps by offering the Tome up to the god so that they may give it to someone who they cannot directly influence, you just may get your wish. Remember though, the god can deny any request you make. However, you only have to pay the xp if you are GRANTED a request that is above normal. You don't loose it if the god denies your request. So, at worst, your god says no (which if you're lvl 20, you're one of the greatest forces for your god in the realm, so chances are he's going to be friendly towards your requests). At very worst, he gives you a little smack for wasting his time. At best, you get what you wanted. At more than best, the god is pleased at your suggestion and gives you a little something extra. Now thats a good idea. Also, the whole reason the book will only give me +3 final benefit is because my con has had a +1 wish/miracle spell cast previously which will be over come by the effects of the tome, there should be a way my diety can rangle the situation for me as long as i'm her favorite priestess for the month! Thanks for the post Edymnion!