Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darranz 05-08-06, 05:51 AM	Hi guys, just wanted to check if there was any errata out yet for Spells Compendium. There are some things that are rather broken in there, which I'm sure should be errata-ed. Perfect example is Combust, first printed in Lords of Darkness. An upgrade from 2d6+10 all the way to 10d8 is rather ridiculous. Opinions anyone?
Vaelan 05-08-06, 08:16 AM	Comparing Combust to a former pathetically weak version isn't indicative of anything. You should be comparing it to Scorching Ray. It is substantially worse than Scorching Ray as it gains a total of 3 average damage but is relegated to Touch range.
darranz 05-08-06, 08:30 AM	10d8 on one attack is worse than 3 attacks of 4d6, which may miss and is thereafter lost? if i don't hit on one combust attack, it's not lost. i miss, i try again. coupled with a lesser rod of maximise, it's a spell that deals 80 pts of fire damage, no save.
tarkin 05-08-06, 11:12 AM	Scorching Ray is one of the BEST 2nd level spells. Saying a spell sucks because it is not as good as Scorching Ray, is like saying "I am dissapointed in you Jeb Bush, why can't you be more like your brother and be President of the United States. Governor in a back water state like Florida, bah. When are you going to make something of yourself?" A more reasonable comparison is Acid Arrow or Flaming Sphere. Neither of those spells are as good as Scorching Ray, althogh they have their uses. Combust is a perfectly good second level spell.
Vegepygmy 05-08-06, 02:55 PM	Combust is a perfectly good second level spell.So good, in fact, that it's overpowered. :)
Vaelan 05-08-06, 06:49 PM	It is a touch spell. It requires you to sit right by the thing you're trying to kill and touch it. This warrants a 3-point increase in damage. You did make one other point, so I suppose I will address it as well... if i don't hit on one combust attack, it's not lost. i miss, i try again. No, you miss and you get your face beat in by the person you just walked into melee range of and tried to touch. I'm guessing you don't have much experience with touch range spells. They tend to do more damage than any other option for a reason: using them is dangerous. Also, rounds are the spellcaster's most important resource and your ability to hold a charge doesn't help you there. Vegepygmy, nobody cares if you think it is overpowered. Some might care about the reasoning you give to support your statement, though, and thus I would recommend actually posting it.
Raven Dark 05-08-06, 07:37 PM	Combust isn't so bad as a touch spell. You jsut have to know hwat you are doing. I have the Combat Familiar feat (PH2) and a hawk familiar. I put them both to really good use when assassinating enemy generals. :D Example 1) I wait outside the enemy camp atop a nearby hill. 2) I scry (or jsut spy out) the general's tent. 3) I send in my hawk familiar with the Combust spell. 4) Familiar lures the general over to him by holding out a fake messege tied to its leg. 5) When able, familair scratches enemy general thereby causing him ignite. 6) Familiar flies back to me as the flaming general flees from his tent ordering his minions to kill the bird before burning to death. 7) I release no leass than 4 fireballs upon the enemy archers before they can even react. 8) DM begins to cry.
Vaelan 05-09-06, 12:19 AM	If they aren't smart enough to recognize that they're taking a message they never expected from a hawk they've never seen before and that is acting unusually, then they are obviously not intelligent enough to command their forces. All you're doing is leading them to new, more competent leadership by eliminating the idiots. You forgot the following steps while outlining the proceedings Inserted between steps 2 and 3... Everyone around your scrying sensor gets a Spot check to notice that you're scrying on them. In place of steps 5-8... 5b. The general makes a DC 20 Sense Motive check to notice that something is amiss. 6b. The general, having failed the Sense Motive check, makes a DC 0 Wisdom check to notice that something is amiss. 7b. The general, having succeeded this check, has his Wizard blast it into a cloud of feathers and you lose some XP along with use of one of your feats for a year and a day. 8b. You cry.
d_nychus 05-09-06, 01:41 AM	Let's compare just straight damage for a moment. At caster level 3: Combust: 3d8 ~ 13.5 Scorching ray: 4d6 ~ 14 Melf's acid arrow: 4d4 ~ 10 Flaming sphere: 6d6 ~ 21 After that, combust and flaming sphere have obvious damage leads. At 6th level: Combust: 6d8 ~ 21 Scorching ray: 8d6 ~ 28 Melf's acid arrow: 6d4 ~ 15 Flaming sphere: 12d6 ~ 42 Then combust jumps ahead at 8th leve to 10th level, with flaming sphere still well, well, well in the lead. At 11th level: Combust: 10d8 ~ 45 Scorching ray: 12d6 ~ 42 Melf's acid arrow: 8d4 ~ 20 Flaming sphere: 22d6 ~ 77 At 18th level, when all spells but flaming sphere are maxed out: Combust: 10d8 ~ 45 Scorching ray: 12d6 ~ 42 Melf's acid arrow: 14d4 ~ 35 Flaming sphere: 36d6 ~ 126 Now, when you add in all these other factors: Combust: Touch attack, no save for normal damage, Reflex save potential for ignition of target for further damage on a failed save. Scorching ray: Ranged touch attack, no save, divided among three attacks Melf's acid arrow: No SR, ranged touch attack, damage over several rounds. Flaming sphere: Damage is 2d6 per round with a save for half, requires a move action to use each round, targets must be within 30' of each other. Flaming sphere has the highest damage potential, but because of the low amount of damage per round and the Reflex save, it becomes more and more ineffective at higher level, save for rare conditions. Melf's acid arrow is decent when you first get it then lags behing with damage, but becomes more effective with the abiltity to ignore SR. Scorching ray does a lot at certain levels, and once capped is nearly as powerful. It just requires 3 ranged touch attacks to pull off, which increases the risk of missed damage. Combust starts out as a decent damage spell, and grows rapidly until 10th level, but requires a touch attack, which is usually quite dangerous for a spellcaster. More risk for greater reward at most levels. Overall, seems relatively balanced to me. Like all spells of a certain level, some spells are just plain better at certain caster levels. But none are really consistantly better, and all have their uses without one totally overwriting another. Seems good to me.
Ehelonna 05-09-06, 02:07 AM	Let's compare just straight damage for a moment. Flaming sphere: Damage is 2d6 per round with a save for half, requires a move action to use each round, targets must be within 30' of each other. If it actually worked like that, flaming sphere might be worth taking... Unfortunately, flaming sphere is reflex negates!!! As a level 2 spell, the saving throw DC will never be considered high.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 02:57 AM	If they aren't smart enough to recognize that they're taking a message they never expected from a hawk they've never seen before and that is acting unusually, then they are obviously not intelligent enough to command their forces. They had seen several messenger birds before mine. It was nothing unusual. All you're doing is leading them to new, more competent leadership by eliminating the idiots. Maybe so. Or maybe I am throwing their army into disarray. Everyone around your scrying sensor gets a Spot check to notice that you're scrying on them. True, but looking over the hill top to find the most extravagant looking tent isn't too difficult either. With some basic reconnaissance, determinging the war chief isn't hard either. The general makes a DC 20 Sense Motive check to notice that something is amiss. What exactly is amiss that would give cause for a "hunch" check? The general, having failed the Sense Motive check, makes a DC 0 Wisdom check to notice that something is amiss. Why would he do that? That sounds like a DM trying to weasal out of a bad situation to me. What rule are you referring to that allows him to do that. The general, having succeeded this check, has his Wizard blast it into a cloud of feathers and you lose some XP along with use of one of your feats for a year and a day. Without just cause for the murder of my character's familiar I would walk out on the DM right then and there as he is obvisouly too concerned with "control" to care about my fun. You cry. I laugh because the war chief is dead. At best you could reasonably say the chief has his underling check the messege (a smart move in a worlf with Explosive Runes), but that wouldn't matter because the familair wouldn't actively touch anyone he knew not to be the chief. To do more than that (and maybe your "hunch" check) would be an abuse of DM powers.
True Cavalier 05-09-06, 12:51 PM	Combust's older version was unreasonably silly. Combust right now is good and useful. Getting in Melee is NOT a good idea for a third-level mage. Sending your familiar in melee, is, likewise, NOT a good idea. If you can pull that whole trick on the enemy general, he deserves to die (and he would have died anyway with other similar spells, so I don't see the point, there). You are saying it's overpowered - well, do you suggest it's pushed to third level, where it will be compared with Fireballs on a mage's "to memorize" lists? I hope not. :rolleyes:
The_WhiteRabbit 05-09-06, 02:57 PM	I laugh because the war chief is dead. So the leader of the enemy armies had fewer levels than you did? Because unless you empowered or maximized or did something else to make the spell do more damage, a d8 per level shouldn't kill anyone who is leading armies (and thus would probably be some type of martial class--so would likely have a d10 hit die and a positive con mod). However, back on topic: Combust looks good on paper. But wait until you think about actually USING it in combat--touch spells get a little scary. It *is* a very good spell for a gish, though.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 03:19 PM	So the leader of the enemy armies had fewer levels than you did? Because unless you empowered or maximized or did something else to make the spell do more damage, a d8 per level shouldn't kill anyone who is leading armies (and thus would probably be some type of martial class--so would likely have a d10 hit die and a positive con mod). Yes the war chief had fewer levels. He is just an NPC after all. Only the BBEG should be superior to the PCs in every way. Everyone else has to be the same level or lower. It is the unspoken rule of roleplaying. :P Seriously though, sudden metamagic, a metamagic rod, or any number of other tricks can make the trick seriously lethal.
digoraccoon 05-09-06, 06:24 PM	"I am dissapointed in you... Despite being a Florida resident I just laughed my drink through my nose... XD Ow... Anyway, Combust is pretty powerful at high levels, but that range of "Touch" is going to be a bother. I can probably come up with a decent list of CR10 critters I wouldn't want to be standing next to to expend this spell on. :) Wizard: **Touches a CR10 Illithid** Illithid: Ow. **Grapples Wizard's spicy brains** Wizard: Ow. Okay, it's a silly example, but you know what I mean. :) You'll need to buff up on defensive spells before getting into close range. Doable, but takes up time and resources to do. Usually you will be okay, but depends what you're fighting. Now the maximised problem I can see. 80 points of fire damage is pretty toasty if you have a rod of maximise or the appropriate metamagic and available slot. I guess it depends on how common spellcasters get rods and/or use the Maximize feats. In my group over the past 2 years no one ever got a rod of maximise. Weird, huh?
Vanigo 05-09-06, 09:04 PM	They had seen several messenger birds before mine. It was nothing unusual.You mean they usually used messenger hawks? That's highly unorthodox. What exactly is amiss that would give cause for a "hunch" check?It's a hawk. Almost nobody uses messenger hawks. They use pigeons, unless they're rangers, druids, or wizards with bird familiars. Without just cause for the murder of my character's familiar I would walk out on the DM right then and there as he is obvisouly too concerned with "control" to care about my fun.That's stupid. You sent your familiar into a potentially dangerous situation, ergo there is a risk of your familiar getting killed. At best you could reasonably say the chief has his underling check the messege (a smart move in a worlf with Explosive Runes), but that wouldn't matter because the familair wouldn't actively touch anyone he knew not to be the chief.It matters if the war chief never goes within ten feet of the hawk. It also matters if said underling (or anyone else) touches the hawk at all, even through a glove, since held touch spells discharge as soon as you touch anyone, even unintentionally.
Raven Dark 05-09-06, 11:30 PM	It also matters if said underling (or anyone else) touches the hawk at all, even through a glove, since held touch spells discharge as soon as you touch anyone, even unintentionally. That's true if the hand (or in this case the hawk's claw) is touched. The charge is kept in the hand, not the entire body. That is why I can cast a touch spell, grapple someone with my other hand, and touch them over and over again witht he charged appendage. Not that I would advise such strategy or anything.