Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alvoros Darkleaf 11-25-03, 11:01 AM	In quite a few spells (Fireball, Flaming Sphere, Lightning Bolt etc.) they state that the spells also set fire to flammable or combustable materials in their area of effect. In our game, the DM has mentioned that he feels that when a party (for example) gets hit by a fireball, that IN ADDITION to making a save for 1/2 damage, any combustable exposed items will also be on fire (cloaks, musical instruments, etc.) or damaged. Other than the critical save failure (roll a "1" on a save, and an item may be effected), are there any other rules that state if this is an additional side effect of being hit by such a spell?
Sancus 11-25-03, 11:06 AM	No, and it isn't. Fireball is referring to unattended objects, not attended ones. In D&D, attended objects are basically considered to be "part of your character", and cannot ever be affected by a spell unless specifically targeted by a spell that affects objects, or by the 'on a rolled 1' saving throw rule.
Alvoros Darkleaf 11-25-03, 11:29 AM	That is generally how we have played, but the only rule I can find that states this is under saving throws, and if you look at the rules for spells and saving throws, it states (bold emphasis mine): Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. ...and if you look in the spell descriptions for Lightning Bolt, Fireball etc., the "descriptive text" in the spell says they light on fire all combustables etc. So, the DM's argument, and I think he has one, is that the spell description of those spells specifically state they effect other items. What I am looking for is somewhere that it states otherwise, or at least a reference to another spell that specifically states in the description how it effects carried items.
kreynolds 11-25-03, 11:40 AM	Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf ...and if you look in the spell descriptions for Lightning Bolt, Fireball etc., the "descriptive text" in the spell says they light on fire all combustables etc. Note what it _doesn't_ say. It says nothing about affecting worn or carried items. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf So, the DM's argument, and I think he has one, is that the spell description of those spells specifically state they effect other items. He's wrong. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf What I am looking for is somewhere that it states otherwise... Well, since fireball doesn't state otherwise to the rule about carried and worn items surviving a magical attack, then it is no different than any other spell. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf ...or at least a reference to another spell that specifically states in the description how it effects carried items. See the Shatter spell. A spell that specifically affects objects will have a saving throw entry along the lines of "Will negates (object)". Of course, the save isn't always a Will save.
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 12:49 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the rule so I would use it! It clearly states that items are not affected after a Saving Throw UNLESS the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise..... the descriptive text of fireball says exactly this! How much more needs to be written to make it clear. The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does. I believe this means if you want to use the rule "Items surviving after a saving throw": Fireball: combusible items are affected period because the descriptive text says it does. This is the exception the rule is trying to cover. Flame Strike: does not affect combustible items and may only damage an item if a 1 is rolled for a saving throw. There is no descriptive text that indicates otherwise. It seems funny that the scroll you are holding does not go up in flames but the scroll on the desk beside you and the desk itself do. Krenolys: "He's Wrong" The age old method of professing to be an authority on the subject by screaming the loudest or stating that "I'M RIGHT HE IS WRONG" in order to make a point generally doesn't work but is used by many to try and influence others that their believe is the correct one. It is best to support you opionion with facts and examples instead trying to appear as an all-knowing being. You do in fact actually support the DM in using the "Items surviving after a saving throw rule" with the following statement. Krenolys - Well, since fireball doesn't state otherwise to the rule about carried and worn items surviving a magical attack, then it is no different than any other spell. So therefore as stated above use the rule, and the rule says to read the descriptive text in order to determine how items are affected. If there is no mention then items are assumed to survive a magical attack (unless a roll of 1 for a saving throw happens and the spell can damage items) and if the descriptive text says items are affected then they are...regardless of saving throw success or failure. TT edit: spelling - at least the ones I spotted.
kreynolds 11-25-03, 01:06 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora the descriptive text of fireball says exactly this! It says nothing of the sort. Originally posted by TrustTymora I believe this means if you want to use the rule "Items surviving after a saving throw": Believe whatever you want. It doesn't change the rules. Originally posted by TrustTymora Fireball: combusible items are affected period because the descriptive text says it does. No, it doesn't. Saying it does also doesn't make it so, especially when there is no such statement of any kind in the description. Originally posted by TrustTymora Flame Strike: does not affect combustible items and may only damage an item if a 1 is rolled for a saving throw. There is no descriptive text that indicates otherwise. Funny...same thing goes for Fireball. Originally posted by TrustTymora It seems funny that the scoll you are holding does not go up in flames but the scroll on the desk beside you and the desk itself do. Dem's de rules. Like it or not, that's not my problem. Originally posted by TrustTymora Krenolys: "He's Wrong" :uh-huh: Originally posted by TrustTymora The age old method of professing to be an authority... I never said any such thing. Stop making things up. Originally posted by TrustTymora ...by screaming... I didn't scream once. Stop making things up. Originally posted by TrustTymora ...or stating that "I'M RIGHT HE IS WRONG" in order to make a point... Well, he is. Originally posted by TrustTymora It is best to support you opionion with facts and examples instead trying to appear as an all-knowing being. Strange, I did. You, on the other hand, are simply making things up, referring to statements that don't even exist. Originally posted by TrustTymora You do infact actually support the DM in using the "Items surviving after a saving throw rule" with the following statement.= Not in any way, shape, or form, and I'm not interested in teaching you how to read. You've already burned though any patience I might have for you. Originally posted by TrustTymora If there is no mention then items are assumed to survive a magical attack (unless a roll of 1 for a saving throw happens and the spell can damage items)... :uh-huh: Originally posted by TrustTymora ...and if the descriptive text says items are affected... Which fireball doesn't. Originally posted by TrustTymora ...then they are...regardless of saving throw success or failure. And apparently, regardless of what the rules say. EDIT: I cleaned this post a bit, as I was ever bit as rude as you were. Generally, I'm not rude, unless provoked, which you did. From here on out, I'll make an effort not to be rude to you, provided that you make an effort as well. Deal?
Alvoros Darkleaf 11-25-03, 01:27 PM	OK, We all now know kreynolds unbending all-knowing opinion on the subject. "I'm right and you're wrong" responses not needed in further posts, thank you. I would like to keep this to a DISCUSSION and debate, not a whiney match. Does anyone have any other opinions on the topic, or can point to any particular rules that might add anything additional to the thread. It is obvious the ones as written and quoted above do leave some room for arguement in my OPINION.
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 01:46 PM	K - sorry if you find my style offensive it wasn't meant to be. I find the rule to be clear.. it states that normally items are not affected...blah blah UNLESS...blah blah I also find that the descriptive text for fireball states what happens to items in the radius of it. This descriptive text does not limited the damage to items failing saving throws or unattended items but simple items in the radius of the spell. [edit: Insert] Fireball does explicitly state "unattended" items in the first paragraph as pointed out in the following post by Kreynolds. [end edit] If you wish to make items worn or carried immune to all magical attacks unless a 1 is rolled regardless of the spells description that is fine but like you say....just because YOU say it doesn't make it true. I'm simple pointing out what the rule says and what the descriptive text of fireball says. Questions: do you think the descriptive text effect of damaging objects and setting combustibles on fire for the fireball spell is for unattended objects only? If so, why? Where is a rule that says to differentiate between attended objects and unattended objects for spells with this type of descriptor? That would help me look at things in a different light. So far the only rule as stated by Alvoros is one that says the oposite - normally items are assumed to survive unless the descriptive text for the spell says otherwise. To me it's pretty clear that fireball has a descriptive text that states specifically what happens to items and objects and it does not tell me to overide the rule Alvoros has quoted and apply it only to unattended objects. TT
kreynolds 11-25-03, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf We all now know kreynolds unbending all-knowing opinion on the subject. It's not an "all-knowing opinion". It's simple grammar... "Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise..." Fireball doesn't specify otherwise. It says nothing about affecting worn or carried items. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf "I'm right and you're wrong" responses not needed in further posts, thank you. I didn't mean to come off that way in my first post on this thread. It's just a simple matter of the rules being very clear. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf Does anyone have any other opinions on the topic, or can point to any particular rules that might add anything additional to the thread. The rules _have_ been pointed out. Originally posted by Alvoros Darkleaf It is obvious the ones as written and quoted above do leave some room for arguement in my OPINION. How so? The rules are very explicit with "unless stated otherwise", and fireball does not mention it affecting carried or worn items in any way. It does not exclude itself by "stating otherwise". It says... "Unattended objects also take this damage." Are carried or worn objects unattended? No. "The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area." Again, are carried or worn objects unattended? No. Thus it doesn't damage carried or worn objects (unless you roll a 1 on your save). Why? Because it says unattended objects take damage, and a carried or worn item is not an unattended object. Rules have been provided. Arguments have been put forth. What more do you want?
kreynolds 11-25-03, 01:56 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora K - sorry if you find my style offensive it wasn't meant to be. It's cool. :cool: Originally posted by TrustTymora I find the rule to be clear.. So do I. ;) Originally posted by TrustTymora I also find that the descriptive text for fireball states what happens to items in the radius of it. To _unattended_ items, yes. Originally posted by TrustTymora This descriptive text does not limited the damage to items failing saving throws or unattended items but simple items in the radius of the spell. It clearly states that unattended items take damage. It does not state that attended items take damage, and it is required to do so to make itself an exception to the rule which states that attended items take no damage except on a roll of 1 on a save or unless the spell states otherwise. Originally posted by TrustTymora If you wish to make items worn or carried immune to all magical attacks unless a 1 is rolled regardless of the spells description that is fine... Except that's not the case. I've already demonstrated that. Originally posted by TrustTymora ...but like you say....just because YOU say it doesn't make it true. You're right. The rules make it true, and I'm showing you the rules. Originally posted by TrustTymora I'm simple pointing out what the rule says and what the descriptive text of fireball says. And what you say of the descriptive text of the fireball spell doesn't actually match the descriptive text of the fireball spell. See the problem? Originally posted by TrustTymora Questions: do you think the descriptive text effect of damaging objects and setting combustibles on fire for the fireball spell is for unattended objects only? Yes. Originally posted by TrustTymora If so, why? Because it states it. See my previous post. Originally posted by TrustTymora Where is a rule that says to differentiate between attended objects and unattended objects for spells with this type of descriptor? What descriptor? Originally posted by TrustTymora So far the only rule as stated by Alvoros is one that says the oposite - normally items are assumed to survive unless the descriptive text for the spell says otherwise. To me it's pretty clear that fireball has a descriptive text that states specifically what happens to items and objects and it does not tell me to overide the rule Alvoros has quoted and apply it only to unattended objects. I don't see it at all. Send an email to the Sage and to CS. I guarantee you they will disagree with you.
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 02:08 PM	Here is the quote of the fireball descriptor please bold the part about it only applying to unattended items. The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does. TT
kreynolds 11-25-03, 02:57 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora Here is the quote of the fireball descriptor please bold the part about it only applying to unattended items. I'll use the _entire_ description... "A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure. You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does." It makes no mention of damaging attended objects in any way, shape, or form. It _does_, however, mention that it damages _unattended_ objects and _creatures_ in the area. Thus, fireball does not make itself an exception to the rule that worn or carried items are not damaged by a magical attack unless the spell description states otherwise.
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 04:02 PM	Thank you K - I was completely skipping over the sentence in the first paragraph and focused on the other. The complete description with your bold emphasis has now made the point clear that unattended objects not worn objects are affected by the Fireball spell. The Flaming Sphere spell makes no mention of unattended objects, but simply states that it ignites flammable substances it touches so the same is not true for that spell right! Regardless of making a saving throw since it ignites flammable substances it touches items attended or unattended that are flammable are on fire. Agreed? TT
kreynolds 11-25-03, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora Regardless of making a saving throw since it ignites flammable substances it touches items attended or unattended that are flammable are on fire. Agreed? Not in the slightest. :D
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 04:16 PM	Not in the slightest. Hmmm on what grounds? Seems like you don't want items catching fire unless a 1 is rolled.
kreynolds 11-25-03, 04:23 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora Hmmm on what grounds? For the same reasons as the fireball spell. It doesn't state otherwise, and your quote doesn't either. It makes no mention of affecting attended objects at all. Originally posted by TrustTymora Seems like you don't want items catching fire unless a 1 is rolled. Unless the spell states otherwise. Also, from the SRD... "Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash." ...and the same passage from the DMG... "Spells such as fireball or flame strike don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash."
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 04:35 PM	With the fireball spell the text specifically mentions "unattended" items being affected therefore worn items are not. The flamming sphere spell says items touched period (no mention of having to be unattended - as in the fireball text). I would think that the flamming sphere spell would say unattended items are affected if that is all that should be affected just like the fireball spell does. Your saying that exclusion of stating it affects worn objects means it doesn't. Is that the rules as you see them.....unless it specifically says you can then you can't or do you use unless it specifically says you can't you can. TT
kreynolds 11-25-03, 04:59 PM	Originally posted by TrustTymora With the fireball spell the text specifically mentions "unattended" items being affected therefore worn items are not. True, but the statement isn't even necessary, as the spell does not specifically state that it affects attended items. Originally posted by TrustTymora The flamming sphere spell says items touched period (no mention of having to be unattended - as in the fireball text). It doesn't _have_ to say that it doesn't affect attended items. As per the rule, it has to say that it _does_ affect attended items, and it doesn't. Originally posted by TrustTymora I would think that the flamming sphere spell would say unattended items are affected if that is all that should be affected just like the fireball spell does. No, for the reasons I already stated. The rules are prioritized. 1) Worn or carried items are not affected by magical attacks unless the spell states otherwise, or you roll a 1 on a saving throw. 2) A spell must state that it affects attended items or an attended item to directly affect an attended item. Neither fireball nor flaming sphere state they affect attended items. Originally posted by TrustTymora Your saying that exclusion of stating it affects worn objects means it doesn't. Exactly. Originally posted by TrustTymora Is that the rules as you see them..... No. Those are simply the rules. I'm just pointing them out.
TrustTymora 11-25-03, 05:08 PM	Sure sounds fine to me and makes it a whole lot easier. Worn items are never affected unless specifically stated OR unless a roll of 1 happens. I'll buy that. I don't really have much more to add but will watch to see if anyone else does. Thanks for you posts. TT