Post/Author/DateTime	Post
glimeral 01-09-05, 02:12 PM	Come one, come all! Make your wish and have it fulfilled. I recently proposed a thread whereby I attempted to inform a person how to pervert wishes correctly. Today, I have the Idea of showing you. Therefore, everyone please feel free to make wishes beyond the guidelines listed in the PHB and I will state ways in which your wishes "could" be granted within the guidelines of what a wish can fulfill, both from the perspective of a manevolently fulfilled wish (efreet) or a benevolently fulfilled wish (ring of wishes, wish/miracle spell). Please feel free to make your wishes as powerful and elaborate as possible providing of course that you keep your wish to one sentence, and that you do not include the word "and" since this is usually interpretted by a wish to be a new sentence/new wish (look through all references to wishes in popular television/litterature and you will see what I mean). To the best of my ability, this thread is intended to give DMs useful ways to pervert a wish IN THE FAVOR of the players remembering that a ring of wishes counts against a characters treasure (and if you are going to be mean with how the wish is perverted, I can guarantee you that the player will wish you had given them a more useful item of the same market value) while the spell costs XP, and therefore, both of these things should be remembered at all times. On the other hand, free wishes (from a genie and *shudders* an efreeti) are not costing the player anything and therefore, feel free to pervert them in inconvienient ways (genie) and in harmful ways (efreeti). For each wish listed, I will pervert the wish every way I can with the following guidelines: How a wish spell/ring of wishes would pervert the wish (in the best ways I can think of) How a Genie "might" pervert the wish (in lesser ways the wish could be fulfilled without being the best way) How an Efreet "will" pervert the wish (in the worst ways I can think of).
Makuya 01-09-05, 02:49 PM	Paladin: I wish to be immortal so that I may deliver justice without fear of death.
wolf_mage 01-09-05, 03:11 PM	I wish to be immortal without being imprisoned, petrified, sent to another plane or polymorphed.
glimeral 01-09-05, 03:27 PM	Paladin: I wish to be immortal so that I may deliver justice without fear of death. Wish Spell: (Benevolent interpretation)Your type becomes outsider, undead, construct or elemental... All of these types are immortal, and by the definition of immortal, a person does not die of old age (not that they cannot die at all). In Savage Species it clearly states that you can be permanently transformed into another creature (or gain traits of another creature permanently) as a result of wish. A kinder interpretation of this same effect would be to transform you into a specific free-willed creature of one of these types (with the same LA as yourself). Assuming LA +0, you might become an Elan (LA 0 outsider from XPH), a Necropolitan (LA 0 undead from Libris Mortis), or a Warforged (LA 0 construct from Eberron CS and MM3). I cannot think of a LA 0 elemental at this time however. Without transforming the creature directly, the Wish duplicates the effects of a completed Legend Lore spell and you instantly know legends about a powerful vampire which would be willing to transform you into a vampire (and hints as to his location), or grant you legends about where to find the location of a ritual or text describing the process whereby you can become a Lich, greenstar adept, elemental savant etc. A kinder interpretation of this same effect might be to cause them to switch their last level for one level in any of these classes (assuming they meet the prerequisites for it) although not in the case of becoming a lich since it requires a magical item worth more than 15K. Genie: (Inconvienient Interpretation) You are planeshifted to the Astral Plane which, due to its Timeless trait, means you are immortal for the entire duration you stay on the Astral plane. As your wish never once stated the DURATION or PERMANENCE of your immortality, this is a valid interpretation. Efreet: (Hostile Interpretation) You are instantly petrified as per the Stone to Flesh spell (since it is assumed you voluntarily fail your saving throw against the wishs effect). Statues are immortal and have no fear of dying from old age. To have no fear of death is to wish for invulnerability however therefore, since your paladin wished for immortality, they gained it, and will no longer have any fear of death from old age, which is the difference between a mortal and an immortal being (although in the RW most people also think of Immortal beings as also being invulnerable and add blend the two together even though they are separate traits). Remember, the effort expended to gain the wish should be proportional to how beneficial/hostile it is. Casting wish costs 5K XP therefore it should be beneficial, I prefer transforming them into something else rather than giving them knowledge how to because it is the MOST beneficial way of fulfilling the wish, and clearly within the realm of the spells effect. Using a wish from a ring of wishes is also an effort since it burns a % of their equipment value to do so (and by possessing a ring of wishes they miss out on treasure of an equal value, that they would otherwise have). Gaining a wish from a genie or efreeti however is nearly no effort at all (except effort taken to locate such a creature and convince it to grant a wish). Therefore, these two should be less beneficial, however genies are not inherrently hostile (more neutral) and therefore the wish should have a more neutral outcome (no clear advantage and no clear disadvantage) while the efreet is hostile and therefore should have a hostile outcome.
glimeral 01-09-05, 03:35 PM	I wish to be immortal without being imprisoned, petrified, sent to another plane or polymorphed.Firstly Imprison is a 9th level spell effect and therefore beyond the ability for wish to fulfill. Wish Spell: You permanently cease to age (naturally or magically) and therefore, have no chance of dying as a result of aging. At the same time, since you are no longer aging, you no longer gain the benefits (or penalties) for increasing your age category (and if you are a dragon, that hurts as it means you never get any larger than you currently are). Genie: I would rule that the genie grants the same effect in this situation. Efreet:The spell duplicates the effects of a magic jar spell transporting your mind into the body of the Efreeti (as they voluntarily fail their save). For the duration of the magic jar spell you are immortal (cannot die from old age). You never specified the duration of your immortality however, and therefore, magic jar qualifies for this effect. Alternatively, True Mindswitch with the nearest free-willed outsider creature (9th level Telepath power from XPH). You are not polymorphed, transported to another plane etc. Or slay your character as per Power Word: Kill and then animate them with the Bone Creature template (as per create greater undead). You are not polymorphed (you were killed and subsequently animated) therefore although your type changes, it is not by virtue of polymorphing.
Makuya 01-09-05, 04:05 PM	How about the wish for a never-ending inability to be affected by illusion?
glimeral 01-09-05, 04:53 PM	Please word it as a wish. You have worded it as a question and one I cannot answer because the answer is dependant upon the wording of your wish. I am trying to create a list on this thread whereby DMs everywhere can pick it for ideas of how to correctly interpret wishes. Your question is to ambiguous for me to answer. Taking it as worded and adapting it to a wish I get the following: I wish to have a never-ending inability to be affected by illusion. Personally I would have worded this differently, but I will work with what Ive been given. Wish:You are transformed into a creature which has a natural permanent true seeing effect (as per transformation and Wish under Savage Species), all other abilities of the creature being randomly determined whether you possess them. Genie:You are transformed into a naturally deaf grimlock. This is better than the result that an efreet would grant you since you can still make effective attacks in combat (due to your blindsight). Efreet:You are permanently blinded and deafened as per the 8th level arcane spell bestow greater curse (complete divine) with no escape clause since you wanted the ability to be never ending. Nothing short of a wish or miracle spell would be able to restore your sight. Being blind and deaf, you have gained a never-ending inability to be affected by illusion since all illusions have a visual and/or audial component and you cannot see or hear. Please note that all Genie interpretations are middle of the road interpretations which the genie "might" grant assuming they are indifferent towards the character. If they are friendly, they would grant a wish more akin to the Wish spell, while if they are hostile, more akin to an Efreet. Spells cast by yourself such as Wish are always considered favorable unless being cast from a cursed ring of wishes in which case they are always hostile.
KittenWarrior 01-09-05, 06:05 PM	(Assuming the Asgardian pantheon.) "I wish to permanently have the strength of Thor, the agility of Frey, the constitution of Hermod, the intelligence of Odin, the wisdom of Frigga and the force of personality of Freya." FYI, literally this would net me stats of: Str 92, Dex 46, Con 42, Int 44, Wis 44, Cha 44 Well beyond 'normal wish limits I'd think, but not unthinkable for a character to wish for.. and don't give me the metagame comment, it's perfectly normal for a person to think of themselves in terms of Constitution etc. I could as easily have used the terms 'Dexterity' and 'Charisma'.. Cheers, KW
Purkake 01-09-05, 07:13 PM	I wish to become the most powerful being in the multiverse.
Nephlite 01-09-05, 07:30 PM	I wish to never be harmed by a wish due to badly wording it. Then I wish to be invulnable to any weapon made within 10, 000 years.
MikeTheAmazingMuskrat 01-09-05, 07:36 PM	Paladin: I wish to be immortal so that I may deliver justice without fear of death. Hehe. dUde. You're a paladin. How can you fear death? You're Fearless. -mike the amazing muskrat
glimeral 01-09-05, 09:09 PM	(Assuming the Asgardian pantheon.) "I wish to permanently have the strength of Thor, the agility of Frey, the constitution of Hermod, the intelligence of Odin, the wisdom of Frigga and the force of personality of Freya." Each of these things would normally be considered a separate wish by any reckoning of the wish (otherwise you would be able to wish to have all statistics gain an inherrent bonus simultaneously which you cannot), but despite that I will humor you. Wish:Your wish sparks Ragnarok making each of the dieties mortal and causing them to loose their divine powers. Each of the dieties becomes an ordinary mortal of their Epic level and has their statistics reduced so that they reflect the statistics that a mortal would have at their level. Your statistics rise to the same level as each of the dieties statistics in question. Genie:Your wish causes each of the named dieties named statistics (strength for thor, dexterity for freya etc) to atrophy to the point that they match your own statistics. Once atrophied each diety merely uses their divine powers to restore their statistics, and you are in deep water. Efreeti:Your entire being is ripped into numerous fragments which then travel and merge with each of the dieties in question. You are expunged from the universe, becoming a tiny fragment of each of the 6 dieties you named. This wish was hard to adudicate since the closest I could come would be the epic spell channel celestial paragon, and this was far beyond that in power... Therefore, thinking back to my Ragnarok campaign setting (which is set in the Asgardian universe) I felt that causing Ragnarok (the end of the world in Asgardian mythology) and making the gods mortal (which is part of ragnarok) would be the only way to fulfill this wish. As an afterthought... the path of least resistance would be as follows: Your perception of reality is altered so that you believe that your strength, dexterity, constitution etc are the same for each of the named gods. In addition, you believe that anyone who is capable of the same feats of strength, agility, reason etc that you are must also have the abilities of the gods in question.
glimeral 01-09-05, 09:30 PM	I wish to become the most powerful being in the multiverse. I love this one... Your character (not player) becomes the dungeonmaster. In all seriousness however, Im not going to even justify this wish, and in all realism, I shouldnt have justified the Asgardian wish with an answer either. I am trying to create a realistic, sensible list of wishes beyond the guidelines of wish so that DMs have a TOOL that they can reference to get some ideas of how they can pervert wishes FAIRLY within their own game. Do you honestly mean to tell me that if you were a DM you would even justify fulfilling this wish? Looking logically at the wish however, you cannot possibly believe that there hasnt been a billion other creatures in the multiverse that have wished for the exact same thing as you and at least one that immediately made a second wish which said "I wish that no being in the multiverse can ever take my power away from me" followed by a third wish stating "I wish that no other being in the multiverse can ever successfully become as powerful as myself". Under that logic, your wish would fail because there is another wish already in existance (made by a being 1 billion years ago who had an Intelligence of say 30+) which prevents your wish from succeeding.
glimeral 01-09-05, 10:05 PM	I wish to never be harmed by a wish due to badly wording it This is a metagame wish and is a very good one to make when DMs try to screw you over.... Im trying to create a list of wishes where the DM DOESNT screw you over (unless its made by an efreet of course), although the results of the wish are not exactly what you expected due to the wish going beyond the RELIABLE powers that wish can grant. However, for the sake of completeness, I will answer this wish but please people... Sensible wishes, Im trying to create a useful tool/thread here, not a joke thread full of useless innane wishes which no DM in their right mind would even contemplate allowing your player to succeed at. Wish:From this moment onwards, any wish that you attempt to make which MIGHT harm you as a result of bad wording (in other words, any wish whose power is beyond the guidelines in the spells description) will automatically fail, thus preventing you from being HARMED by its bad wording. Wishes that you make which can be interpretted in a beneficial (if unexpected) way (such as some of the more sensible wishes posted above) will work in the beneficial yet UNEXPECTED way. In addition, all wishes granted to you by an efreeti or other hostile entity who plans on perverting your wish in a manner that causes you harm, automatically fails with no effect. IMO, this a beneficial result of the wish, since from this moment on, only helpful wishes that YOU make will actually work (even if the help isnt exactly what you wished for). Please note that by the letter of your wish, if you wish for an effect for somone else that person can still be harmed by its effects, and so to can you be harmed by the effects of wishes cast by other spellcasters on your behalf (but not from genies or efreet). Genie:From this moment on, any wish which you cast upon yourself automatically fails. You can still recieve wishes cast on your behalf by other spellcasters (but not by noble genies or efreet) and can still cast wishes on behalf of others. Efreet:The wish duplicates the effects of a greater bestow curse, which causes any wish cast by you to automatically fail. The escape clause for this effect being if you suffer detrimental lasting effects due to a wish being cast on you by another creature. Alternatively, from this moment onwards, you are not harmed in any way by a badly worded wish... The closest innocent person/ally/family member (DMs choice) suffers the harmful effects instead. You are not DIRECTLY harmed by your badly worded wish, they are. If you feel emotional about their suffering, that is not the result of the wish harming you however, it is the result of your FEELINGS towards that person HARMING you (emotionally) therefore, according to the letter of the wish... you are not harmed by your badly worded wish (you are harmed by your feelings). Then I wish to be invulnable to any weapon made within 10, 000 years. Since this wish is made on the back of the first one, your poor wording will be corrected to say the following "I wish to be invulnerable to any weapon made within 10,000 years prior to and after this moment in time".... Wish:You disappear from time, reappearing 10,000 years in the future in the exact spot you currently stand. This wish in no way HARMS you by the poor wording of your wish therefore, is a valid perversion of the wish. Genie:Lets assume that the first wish was from a wish spell and not one of the genies three wishes. Assuming this, I would rule the same thing applies. Efreeti:Lets assume that the first wish was from a wish spell and not one of the efreets three wishes. Assuming this, you are planeshifted to a static demiplane where no time flows... Again, you are not harmed in any way by being in this dimension and therefore, to the letter of your original wish (that you are not harmed), this is how I would pervert the wish. You must realise your original wish only spoke of being harmed due to bad wording.. It in no way prevented you from being inconvienienced or imprisoned due to bad wording, so long as the imprisonment or inconvienience does not harm you in any way.
glimeral 01-09-05, 10:27 PM	If you had simply made the second wish without the first one, I would interpret them this way. Since your exact wording was "I wish to never be harmed by any weapon made within 10,000 years" and did not specify when this period should start from, it could easily be ruled that it was 10,000 years from the current moment (forward or backward in time), 10,000 years from the beginning of time, 10,000 years from the end of time etc. Assuming that the DM is kind and lets the time period extend 5000 years prior to the moment of the wish and 5000 years after the moment of the wish, I would interpret the wish in the following ways. Wish Spell: Spell works. You are immune to the attacks of any weapon made within 10,000 years. Since your wish did not include AMMUNITION made within 10,000 years, you are not immune to damage inflicted upon you by ammunition (although you are immune to the attack of the weapon itself should someone decide to hit you with the WEAPON and not the weapons AMMUNITION). In addition, all creatures instantly realise that the weapon in their hands cannot harm you in any way (in much the same way that a spellcaster knows they cannot cast defensively in the presence of a character with mage slayer). Genie: Whenever you are struck in combat by a weapon made during this period, the wound magically appears on the body of your closest ally, or friend (regardless of the distance). There, you are not harmed by the attack in any way shape or form. Efreet: Your body liquifies. Being liquid, you are immune to damage from any weapon made within 10,000 years (or any weapon at all for that matter). This doesnt make you immune to fire (since fire isnt a weapon) or other attacks. Alternatively, whenever you are struck in combat by a weapon made during this period, the wound magically appears on the body of ALL of your family members as well as your closest ally or, the wound magically appears on the body of your closest ally and is treated as a critical hit.
Purkake 01-10-05, 07:47 AM	Well there are ways to screw my wish over. I wish to become the most powerful being in the multiverse Like the wish creates a new little multiverse for me where i can be the only and most powerful being. If the players get one wish then someone would certainly ask for something like that and you must do something with the wish. You can't just say that it doesn't work.
KittenWarrior 01-10-05, 11:36 AM	Each of these things would normally be considered a separate wish by any reckoning of the wish (otherwise you would be able to wish to have all statistics gain an inherrent bonus simultaneously which you cannot), but despite that I will humor you.I know. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable for a character to consider this as just one wish. Wish:Your wish sparks Ragnarok making each of the dieties mortal and causing them to loose their divine powers. Each of the dieties becomes an ordinary mortal of their Epic level and has their statistics reduced so that they reflect the statistics that a mortal would have at their level. Your statistics rise to the same level as each of the dieties statistics in question.Ragnarok, eh? I would think that that effect would be even more boyond the power of mortal magic than a few simple ability increases.Genie:Your wish causes each of the named dieties named statistics (strength for thor, dexterity for freya etc) to atrophy to the point that they match your own statistics. Once atrophied each diety merely uses their divine powers to restore their statistics, and you are in deep water.I did state 'permanently'.. And again, decreasing a deity's stats is further beyond mortal magic than increasing them for a mortal.Efreeti:Your entire being is ripped into numerous fragments which then travel and merge with each of the dieties in question. You are expunged from the universe, becoming a tiny fragment of each of the 6 dieties you named.This i could see as a valid result... nasty, but valid. :cool: As an afterthought... the path of least resistance would be as follows: Your perception of reality is altered so that you believe that your strength, dexterity, constitution etc are the same for each of the named gods. In addition, you believe that anyone who is capable of the same feats of strength, agility, reason etc that you are must also have the abilities of the gods in question.This is a bit lame. You can pervert any kind of wish, or even regular magicthis way. "Your perception of reality is altered so that you believe you hit your opponent with a magic missile for 4 damage." On a side note, you can also pervert any wish involving a permanent effect by placing the character on a timeless plane (no means of escape), since the effect isn't truly permanent if the character dies. The problem with wish is not that certain effects are beyond it's power (very few really are), but that some things are beyond it's power to do reliably. This clause is built in just to prevent exorbitant wishes like mine. Players - not characters per se - should be aware of this before they attempt to use wishes. If they then still wish for something to grand to be granted reliably, the DM should feel free to punish them for their stupidity. The degree of perversion should be commensurate with the degree by which the character exceeds the 'normal' limitations. Cheers, KW
Raven Dark 01-10-05, 12:55 PM	An attempt to stay human, while gaining the ability to fly. "I wish for my human body to sprout wings so that I may fly." An attempt to get Improved Unarmed Strike or Power Attack. "I wish I could hit as hard as the fighter." I just love your Wish threads by the way. I intend to visit this one regularly as I come up with new Wishes.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-10-05, 01:34 PM	Quite frankly, a lot of the wishes I see in here are things I'd expect some illiterate commonner to make, not a 17+ level spellcaster. Start by assuming your character knows at least what the description of Wish says. "I wish to permanently have the strength of Thor, the agility of Frey, the constitution of Hermod, the intelligence of Odin, the wisdom of Frigga and the force of personality of Freya." Can this be accomplished by Wish as it stands? No. Period. There is no way Wish can make this happen. Therefore, it doesn't. You wish for this in my campaign, you will simply have wasted the wish. End of story. Thanks for playing, better luck next time.
Sorti 01-10-05, 01:52 PM	"I wish for a merry Christmas and an Happy New Year" :P
IceFractal 01-10-05, 02:29 PM	I hope you don't mind, but a rather evil interpretation of the stat-boosting wish comes to mind: :devil: You do gain the stats of the various gods, and are now one of the most powerful beings in existance. With great power comes great responsability however, and you are compelled to travel to and forever guard the world tree, trying to prevent Ragnarok (if you fail and Ragnarok occurs, you will be free from your compulsion, but at that point the gods will be dead, so their stats (and thus yours) will be effectively 0).
glimeral 01-10-05, 03:15 PM	The wish creates a new little multiverse for me where i can be the only and most powerful being. There is only one multiverse. Your solution cannot apply as the multiverse by definition includes everything in existance no matter what plane, dimension, or UNIVERSE it exists on. If you had said universe, well then yes, your answer could apply, but by definition the multiverse includes EVERY reality in existance (including alternate realities of the same reality).
glimeral 01-10-05, 04:39 PM	"I wish for my human body to sprout wings so that I may fly." This is a reasonable wish. Wish: You gain the winged creature template (LA+2) from Savage Species. Your experience does not change as a result of this ECL increase therefore you now need to adventure for several levels before you gain a new level increase. This wish is very much within the power of wish to grant, and is perverted by the fact that they are now an ECL creature, and therefore have lost their top two levels in their class progression. If the DM is being nice and the player is OK with it, you could allow them to have a 2 level "Winged" monster class, the first level granting the character the ability to glide (much like a baaz draconian from dragonlance) and the 2nd level allowing the player true flight (as per the template). This is one way I would allow someone to gain an inherreted template AFTER character creation. Noble Djinni: Same as above. This wish is very neutral in its effects, trading power now for power later (as is the case with all LA increases that you gain throughout your career). Efreeti: Your alignment changes to evil (same ethical alignment), and you gain the half-fiend template (including wings). However, I would follow the rules for transformation as presented in Savage species, requiring the Efreet to make a Spellcraft check (DC 20) and for every point which they beat the spellcraft check, the character has a 5% chance of gaining the supernatural abilities of the race (although they automatically have the physical abilities including claws, wings, increased statistics etc). A nice DM might allow them to take the half-fiend monster class in order to gain all of the abilities, growing useless vestigal wings at 1st level, wings that allow them to glide at 2nd level (see above) and fully functioning wings at 3rd level. In either case, you have lost the top 3 levels of your class progression, and if you were a paladin or other class whose abilities were dependant on your alignment you are going to be hurting pretty bad right now (even more so if you had exalted feats). Edit: Due to the length of this posting, I will answer the second wish in another posting.
glimeral 01-10-05, 04:45 PM	An attempt to get Improved Unarmed Strike or Power Attack. "I wish I could hit as hard as the fighter." I will reword this wish somewhat since it is sort of ambiguous as to which fighter you are referring to. "I wish I could hit as hard as Bob the fighter." (Bob being the party fighter) Wish: The wish duplicates the effects of a Psychic Reformation power (4th level psion power) since wish can duplicate the effects of any non-arcane spell 7th level or lower (and I would rule that according to the psionics/magic transparency rules, psionic powers fall under the category of being "any other spell of 7th level or lower" while psionic powers from a specific dicipline falls under the effects of "any other spell of 5th level or lower even if its from a prohibited school"). The psychic reformation alters your feat selection so that you hit as hard as bob the fighter, starting with the most recently gained feat and working their way backwards until your feats are the same as the fighters (for the purposes of how much damage you deal). This doesnt grant you WS or GWS however, since these feats only affect how hard Bob the fighter hits with a SPECIFIC weapon, and your wish was how hard he hits (generally). Once that happens, your magical items are absorbed into a strength enhancing item (of equal market value) until such times as your strength while using the item is equal to Bob the fighters (I.E until such times as you have a +6 belt of giant strength or your strength equals Bob the fighters whichever comes first). In the case of the strength enhancing item failing to increase your strength to the same value of Bob the fighters due to an add strength increase or due to Bob the fighters strength being 7 points (or more) higher than yours, you gain a +1 to +5 inherrent bonus to strength. For each +1 inherrent bonus to strength that you gain, one of your other 5 statistics is reduced by 1 (starting with your dump stat, and working through the statistics up to your most important statistic [otehr than strength] until such times as all 5 statistics have been reduced by 1 point before beginning the cycle again, with a minimum of 3 in any statistic). If you still dont hit as hard as bob the fighter due to this strength bonus, your BASE strength (non-magical, non-inherrent strength) increases until your strength score equals bob the fighters. As with the inherrent bonuses above, for each +1 bonus to strength that you gain, you suffer a -1 penalty to another statistic (continuing the cycle as above). Finally, if you hit harder with your natural unarmed strikes hit harder than bobs does (due to levels in monk or a similar class) you suffer the effects of a bestow greater curse which causes your unarmed damage equal bob the fighters, with the only escape clause being to make a second wish which alters the wording of the first (or undoes it completely). Alternatively, the wish duplicates the effects of a FUSION (8th level egoist power from XPH) with you in control of the body, although the duration lasts for only 1 round. Genie: You gain the effects of the psychic reformation as above. Once the psychic reformation is completed, Bob the fighter suffers the effects of a bestow greater curse spell which reduces his strength and unarmed damage so that it is identical to yours at all times (even with magical enhancements or inherrent bonuses). The escape clause for this curse being that YOU must verbally renounce your desire to hit as hard as Bob the fighter, in which case his strength returns to its normal (non-magical and magical) level. Even if you do this however, the psychic reformations effects are permanent. Alternatively, the wish duplicates the effects of a FUSION (8th level egoist power from XPH) with Bob the fighter in control of the body, although the fusion lasts only for 1 round. Efreet:The wish grants Bob the fighter the greater curse (as above) as well as the benefits of a psychic reformation power that REMOVES all feats that Bob has that affect how hard he hits (Power attack and any feat relying on power attack in most situations). A mean DM might replace these feats with feats that you, the wisher has providing of course that he meets the prerequisites of them, while a nice DM might let Bob the fighter choose different feats instead. Finally, bob the fighter also suffers his end of the XP loss due to psychic reformation since he did not make the wish, and therefore, the wish does not absorb HIS share of the XP cost. This is a really nasty perversion of the wish which wont make bob the fighter very happy with you. Alternatively, the wish duplicates the effects of a FUSION (8th level egoist power from XPH) with PERMANENT duration in which you both share control of the body on alternate combat rounds. BTW, I congratulate on your wish not being metagame wishing... Many players would wish for access to the Power attack feat (which is metagame thinking) and I would automatically rule that this wish fails since from the characters perspective they dont have any feats, the guy with power attack has just learnt how to put more power behind their hits than normal (but at the expense of accuracy).
glimeral 01-10-05, 04:56 PM	"I wish for a merry Christmas and an Happy New Year" LOLOL... Ill answer this one for fun. Wish: Your spell works. For those two days specified, everyone in the entire universe has a good day. Genie: You have a merry christmas and a happy new year. Both of those days are very enjoyable for yourself. They may, or may not be enjoyable to others however as normal for any particular day and what they make of it... but you guarantee that your days are enjoyable and happy. Efreeti: You have a merry christmas and a happy new year. Everyone else in the universe has a rotten day on both occassions. Many deaths, losses and other forms of suffering happen on these particular days (although no-one that your character is intimately related to (friends, family etc) suffers permanent lasting effects, they just have a rotten day).
Purkake 01-10-05, 05:02 PM	I wish that every metal I touch becomes gold forever. Kinda classical. And i wasn't aware of the exact meaning of multiverse :rolleyes:
glimeral 01-10-05, 05:19 PM	I wish that every metal I touch becomes gold forever. Rewording this wish so that it is more coherent. "I wish that every metal object that I touch transforms into gold forever". Wish: Every time you touch anything metal, it becomes gold. Any weapons or armor currently in your possession (or ever come into your possession) that have metal parts becomes gold also. Gold has less HPs than steel (or other metals) and is more easily broken in combat (I think I saw the statistics for gold items somewhere once, but I cannot remember where). Since all metal that you touch becomes gold, you can never benefit from a cold-iron, mithral, adamantine or alchemical-silver weapon, armor or shield ever again (unless you undid your wish), but any objects currently transformed remain transformed FOREVER. This means that if you had a metalline weapon, you just lost the benefits of this ability (ouch). Be prepared for people to quickly learn of your powers and try to kidnap/coerce you to use them for their benefits, or hunt you down with the intent on killing you due to how your powers upset the ecconomic balance of power. Genie:As above, except that as you did not wish for the item to retain its powers, any magical metal item that you touch becomes a non-magical gold version of itself FOREVER. You can always reenchant the item however. Efreeti: Any metal item that you touch permanently transforms into a single gold piece FOREVER. All metal items currently being touched/handled by yourself instantly transform into gold pieces lolol. This latter wish is very nasty... But I love it :devil: Since you added FOREVER to the wording of this wish, you cannot transform the item back into its original form even if you used another wish (due to the fact that you said FOREVER, therefore, prohibiting any force including another wish to alter its form into something else).
KittenWarrior 01-10-05, 07:48 PM	Quite frankly, a lot of the wishes I see in here are things I'd expect some illiterate commonner to make, not a 17+ level spellcaster. Start by assuming your character knows at least what the description of Wish says. "I wish to permanently have the strength of Thor, the agility of Frey, the constitution of Hermod, the intelligence of Odin, the wisdom of Frigga and the force of personality of Freya." Can this be accomplished by Wish as it stands? No.Yes, it can, in my opinion. Wish, as I would interpret it, is virtually limitless in power. In the game world there is no description of the spell saying what it can or cannot do. Therefore it makes little sense for a character to know the PHB definition. For a player however, it is quite a different matter. (See also my post above.) The only occasion where I would let a wish spell fizzle completely is in the case of a player making a meta-wish - such as wishing for X more wishes, or wishing that any subsequent wish spells will fail. These types of wishes would interfere with the nature of wish itself and should therefore not be granted. Even so, a benevolent DM might still allow a character a retry, especially if the wish is cast by an efreeti or genie on behalf of the character. (One could imagine the being in question explaining to the character how their wish would unravel the very structure of wishing itself and would thus cause utter chaos.) Wishing for multiple ability increases implies several regular wish effects to happen simultaneously, which is obviously beyond the intended power of a (regular) wish spell (but that was the point of this thread), but it is not beyond the power of wish per se. Cheers, KW
glimeral 01-10-05, 07:52 PM	Agreed. Wishing for multiple bonuses to statistics is not beyond the power of the wish, although since it is beyond its RELIABLE power, there will be some drawback. I wish to have the strength of the Tarrasque is beyond the RELIABLE limits of the wish (which would only grant you a +1 inherrent bonus to Strength) but its not IMPOSSIBLE. Simple answer.... You become the Tarrasque or your consciousness merges with the Tarrasque or something to that effect. As to your wish Kittenwarrior, about the effects being lame etc.... You were the wishmaker... I was assuming the role of the DM. What you think is a good way of perverting the wish does not apply. The effects would still happen the way the DM interprets it (and skews it)... If I was your DM, thats how I would interpret it. Simple as that. You have no say in the matter since your wish was beyond the power that wish can reliably grant therefore you put that power in MY hands as to its results. In regards to becoming a god with all those powers, that was my original idea except that I felt that it was too mundane, would result in the balance of power completely shifting in the game, and would also require you to become an NPC character, and therefore I came up with a more imaginative response. However, that being said, my appologies for not seeing that your wish was to PERMANENTLY gain the statistics of the dieties in question.
glimeral 01-10-05, 08:07 PM	(Assuming the Asgardian pantheon.) "I wish to permanently have the strength of Thor, the agility of Frey, the constitution of Hermod, the intelligence of Odin, the wisdom of Frigga and the force of personality of Freya." Rewording my original response as follows: Wish:You rob each of those gods of the statistic in question, reducing their statistics to YOUR level (Thor having your strength, freya your dexterity etc) while at the same time increasing your statistics to their level (Str 92, Dex 46, Con 42, Int 44, Wis 44, Cha 44). This immediately causes the gods to retaliate by wishing to undo their misfortune (a reliable use of wish which allows you to undo a single recent event). Since your wish was to permanently gain their abilities, their wish cannot UNDO you gaining their statistics, however it can undo the reduction in their own statistics (restoring Thors STR back to 92, Freyas Dex back to 46 etc). The gods are restored to full power, and they immediately wish to know the exact cause of their lost power (discovering that it was the result of your wish). Now you have 6 very angry gods on your back (if not the entire pantheon) while you are still very much mortal (although you are a mortal with diety level statistics). Genie: As above. Efreeti: As I originally printed. Your entire being is shredded into numerous pieces, each being absorbed by the dieties in question. The fact that I failed to see the exact wording of your wish only shows that I am human, and prone to human frailties (like overlooking something) lolol.
macfry 01-10-05, 08:24 PM	I wish that I had permanent control of time on any plane I go to.
Super Chris 01-10-05, 08:27 PM	How about a wish that uses a reference? To use the wish for immortality as an example (italics and parenthesis are my OOC comments): Human wizard sits down and says, "An immortal is a living, breathing (ruling out petrification, undeath, and trap the soul) human (ruling out polymorph) who does not age while experiencing time normally (ruling out imprisonment and temporal stasis) and in his home plane (ruling out being sent to another plane)." The wizard then casts wish, stating "I wish to become immortal according to the definition I spoke immediately prior to casting wish." Not so much wondering how to pervert that, as how much and how specific refrencing outside the spell would be made to work.
glimeral 01-10-05, 08:56 PM	I wish that I had permanent control of time on any plane I go to.Oh I can have fun with this. Wish: From this moment forward, any attempt by yourself to travel to another plane by any means (planeshift, ethereal jaunt, astral projection, gate etc) will automatically fail, resulting in you rematerializing on the current plane in the exact spot you were in before you attempted planar travel. This effect cannot be negated by any means including a wish or miracle spell (unless you use the wish to undo the misfortune of the effect, assuming of course that you realise the nature of your misfortune SHORTLY thereafter, since wish can only reliably undo misfortune of a single RECENT event). Since you only specified to have control over time on any plane you "go to", its effects do not apply to the current plane unless you travel TO this plane from another plane. Therefore, preventing you from planar travel prevents you from having control over time on ANY plane (although if you could travel to another plane you would have control over time when you "go there"). Alternatively, an unbreakable miniature hourglass materializes in front of your head and begins spinning slowly (like an ioun stone). The effects of this hourglass cannot be supressed at any time (even in an antimagic field) and measures time in minutes (ok its a minuteglass not an hourglass) automatically flipping itself at the end of each minute with an audiable ding. There, you control time on any plane you go to since you know exactly how much time has transpired at any moment (and can therefore control how you USE the time). Genie: Ill think of something later. Efreeti: A sphere 5 feet on a side centered around yourself becomes a demi-plane of the current plane with the following traits: Subjective Alterable Time: Time acts subjectively for each occupant in the demiplane, being either normal time, flowing time, erratic time or timeless as they choose in each moment. Dead Magic: The demiplane functions as if under the effects of an anti-magic sphere. All other planar traits (gravity, alignment, elemental and energy traits) are the same as the original plane from which the demiplane is formed. There. You are the lord over time in your own private demiplane, which you are trapped in due to the demiplanes dead magic trait. If I was you I would use your control over time to make the plane timeless in respect to yourself otherwise you will quickly run out of food and water and die of starvation and/or thirst.
glimeral 01-10-05, 09:04 PM	For latecomers to this thread Wish=Wish/Miracle spell (although miracle might have different effects depending upon the diety in question and how benevolent/hostile they feel about granting your miracle). Genie= Noble Djinn Efreeti/Efreet= Efreet
taltamir 01-10-05, 09:13 PM	What are you doing? first you reword everyone's wishes (if they were worder properly perverting wouldnt be necessary), then you have every effect outside the spells power, and also ignore parts of the wish. Firstly, if and constitutes a new wish, then the spell TRUNCATES what is said after and... for example : I wish for the strength of cord and the wisdom of wee jas.... truncates into "I wish for the strength of cord". It does not however get changed in any other way (no rewriting it) Secondly, fulfilment: Wish: I wish for a merry christmas and new years. Result: Duplicate spell, something mind effecting, you are coerced into having a merry christmas and a happy new years (or, as many people as can be affected with the biggest spell it can mimic are). Wish: I wish to be as strong as Thorm. I wish to be the strongest person in the multiverse. I wish to be the most... Result: The wish starts charging your body with strength, after infusing you with a whopping +1 inherant bonus to strength its power runs out. (instead of it failing or it having no effect, also it fits for CHARACTERS who dont know the spell getting it from a ring... The player knows it can give a +1 inherant bonus, the character just asks to be as strong as they can be.). If you can stomach it, dont tell the character exactly what he gained, only that he feels slightly more powerful, and dont give him any hints as to what changed on his character sheet until he goes out to find on his own (make it easy to find though, a simple spell should reveal that he just got a slight boost in strength, ie a +1 to str) Wish: I wish to be immortal without being imprisoned, petrified, sent to another plane or polymorphed. First ask the player to define immortal, if they define it as unaging, then: Result: You stop aging for X years, after which the spells power is exhausted and you start againg again. If they define it as unkillable and unaging then: You stop aging for X years, each Y years of them can be replaced with a simple resurrection spell, if you have enough when you die. When all of those "year points" are spent, the spell is exhausted. Calculate Y based on the level of the spell resurrection (in relation to the level of the spell wish can duplicate) Wish: I wish to be immortal so that I may deliver justice without fear of death. Result (this time, to have fun, i will include a Neutral and an Evil way of doing this aswell): Good option 1: Same as for the previous wish. Good option 2: Transform to a LA+0 outsider of proper alignment (ie, a weak celestial). Character is now immortal and bound to fight evil. Neutral: Will very likely go with good option 2..... Neutral doesnt mean that they feel that they have to be fair to evil creatures, just that they dont feel inclined to do good themselves, making someone else do the good for them in this manner is a nice idea. Otherwise, can have some other fun. For example, cast resurrection in the future at the exact point the character dies. Dont tell the character how it was done. So, once the character falls in persuing that justice, they think they are immortal and no longer fear death. And indeed, they were kept from dying, so for the time of the wish they WERE immortal, they just arent immortal afterwards, and can die like normal humans then. Evil: Teleport to a bastion of good in the midst of the abyss maintained by a greater artifact that cannot be moved, the infusion of good energies make the character unaging, but they are stuck fighting massive amounts of hellspawn, unless they can escape they will surely die shortly, escaping will distance them from the source of good energies, and thus end their immortality. (the wish itself however, only mimicked the teleport spell)
glimeral 01-10-05, 09:49 PM	Straight from the spells descriptionYou may try to use wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish give the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment).Your interpretation is 100% VALID, as it results in a PARTIAL fulfillment. I on the other hand am trying to give DMs ideas of how to provide a LITERAL but UNDESIRABLE fulfilment without needing to be unneccessarily cruel or capricious, although I am also providing examples of how an Efreet (which IS CRUEL and CAPRICIOUS) would twist the very same wish. If you had read the introduction to this thread, you would realise Im trying to ENCOURAGE players to use wishes, without FEARING that their DM is going to screw them royally in the process. Especially since the guidelines as listed under wish are METAGAME results. It is impossible for a character to make the following wish: I wish to gain a +1 bonus to Strength. This wish, would instead say something to the effect of I wish to be stronger than I currently am. Many DMs would interpret the DEGREE of strength the character is wishing for (which is open ended) as being a wish that is attempting to produce effects GREATER than the spells effect, and therefore, instead of simply granting them a +1 inherrent bonus to Strength (which is the most literal translation of the wish since they are now stronger than they were before) they royally screw them over and say things to the effect of "but you never specified how MUCH stronger you would become therefore, I saw that you were making too powerful a wish" instead of interpretting it to the LEAST degree (meaning that even a slight increase fulfills the wishes intent and therefore is all that is required for the wish to suceed and therefore, that is all that happens). Another example: I wish for the strength of a giant. A belt of giant strength +4 materializes around the characters waist (market price 16,000gp). This belt, by its name fulfills the LITERAL intent of the wish, does not SCREW the character in any way, and does not leave you with a PLAYER who is ANGRY at you, getting exactly WHAT they asked for, but not HOW they INTENDED it to happen. That same example a little better worded: I wish to permanently have the strength of a fire giant. (Str 31) Since fire giants have a +20 racial bonus to Strength (31-11=+20) the weakest fire giants have a strength of only 23. Since the character failed to specify whether they wanted the strength of a weak/average/strong/superior fire giant, the wish only has to grant them a strength score of 23 by any means. The way this wish would be interpreted would be dependant upon their current strength. If their current strength is 21 or above, they gain gauntlets of ogre power (4,000gp market price). If their current strength is 19-20, they gain a belt of giant strength +4 (16,000gp). If their current strength is 17-18 I would have one of their worn magical items (worth at least 11,000gp but no more than 20,000gp) transform into an identical item of giant strength +6 (ring of giant strength +6, headband of giant strength +6 etc). At this point I would probably cause the wish to run out of power resulting in a partial effect. Another easy interpretation.. The character transforms into a fire giant loosing all racial statistic modifiers they currently have and gain 0 levels in the fire giant monster class (racial traits only)... meaning that they must now spend the next 19 levels advancing as a fire giant, completely putting a stop to any further class progression until well into epic levels.
psionichamster 01-10-05, 09:53 PM	i wish to be undefeatable.
glimeral 01-10-05, 10:32 PM	i wish to be undefeatable. Wish:During the next competition you enter against any number of opponents, any action taken by your opponent(s) directly relating to that competition automatically fail with no effect. Therefore, during that competition you cannot be defeated by your opponent(s) since only your actions CAN succeed. Such a competition might be a single battle where all attacks/spells/effects taken against you automatically fail for example, although any action taken against other characters has the normal chance of success. If the action is an area affect, you are immune to its effects etc. Since you only wished to be undefeatable, but did not specify for how long or in what situations, the above effect is completely valid. Genie: As above, except that it only applies to your next competative ACTION, rather than your next competition. In other words, your next action automatically succeeds (attack roll, opposed skill check etc). This is a sub-par wish, but definately a viable one and one that doesnt leave the character worse for wear. Efreet:You are annihilated (as per a sphere of annihilation). Divine Intervention cannot bring you back into existance however, if another character casts a wish to undo misfortune, they can undo your Alternatively, from this moment on, your character is under the effects of a bestow greater curse preventing you from engaging in any competative activities with another creature. In addition, no creature will ever willingly compete with you. There, you cannot be defeated because you cannot be competed against. There is no chance of loosing/being defeated, if you never enter into a competition of any kind. The effects of this wish would also mean that creatures never make opposed skill checks against you so there is an upside.
Asmodeous 01-10-05, 10:55 PM	I wish to cast this wish spell and not suffer any penalty what so ever from doing so. In other words, casting a wish spell where the effect is to not loose any exp, material component etc even though there is no benefit from the spell at all. By the rules, what would happen? technically, you cannot wish for experience points and the wish spell must consume 5000 xp points. So how would the rules explain the wish "working" by not costing any xp in the real sense? Or is the spell simply wasted, removed from the wizards daily spell revision with absolutely no effect?
taltamir 01-10-05, 11:31 PM	Well ok... I'll admit I gave partial and not full interpertation there. But you are giving things way outside the scope of the spell to create. mmm... how do we solve this...
macfry 01-10-05, 11:40 PM	I wish to cast this wish spell and not suffer any penalty what so ever from doing so. In other words, casting a wish spell where the effect is to not loose any exp, material component etc even though there is no benefit from the spell at all. By the rules, what would happen? technically, you cannot wish for experience points and the wish spell must consume 5000 xp points. So how would the rules explain the wish "working" by not costing any xp in the real sense? Or is the spell simply wasted, removed from the wizards daily spell revision with absolutely no effect? You most likely just burned a wish to summon a monster that, when killed, will net you 5000 xp.
taltamir 01-10-05, 11:45 PM	A wish can undo an event and reality will reshape itself... You created a paradox since the wish prevents you from casting itself in the first place. XP
glimeral 01-11-05, 12:18 AM	I am not casting things outside the realm of possiblity for wish except for a few wishes that I really struggled to find a valid way of fulfilling (the wish to be like the Asgardian gods for example). For the most part, I am restricting the wish so that it duplicates the effects presented in the book to the best of my ability. Granted, some of my interpretations can be made better since Im only HUMAN and, I cannot possibly think up the best solution on my own EVERY time, but the point of this thread is to give constructive ideas for DMs to utilize so they can give their players something useful without screwing them over. Besides, I would love constructive criticism on how to make some of my interpretations better. Anyway, enough derailing this thread on a tangent..... Ill take your considerations on board with the remainder of the wishes as they come. As to transformational effects of wish.. these are covered in chapter 6 of Savage species, Im taking this as a guide since these effects are OFFICIAL rulings. Please look up that chapter to see the remainder of the effects, such as the fact that although you AUTOMATICALLY gain the creatures type and statistics, there is only x% chance of gaining its supernatural,spell-like or extraordinary abilities (rolled separately for each ability) making it possible for example to have the size, shape, type and strength of a Gold dragon but none of its special abilities (immunity to fire, breath weapon, frightful presence etc). Remember, Im only trying to create a guide here... not an ABSOLUTE list.
taltamir 01-11-05, 12:31 AM	well, thats why I think we should apply our minds and find a better solution together.
glimeral 01-11-05, 01:51 AM	Well, the easiest way would be for SEVERAL people to answer the SAME wish in different ways, giving different options. However, I dont want arguments over any one interpretation as that would derail the spirit of the thread. Leave interpretations as they are, and let the DM looking at this guide make their own mind up what THEY think about it. When it comes to WISH, there is no WRONG way of interpreting it...therefore, arguments over a point of opinion will simply derail this thread. That being said, if other people are going to be answering wishes, please keep them in the same format, WISH/GENIE/EFREET with the first one being a beneficial interpretation, the second being a beneficial/neutral interpretation and the third being a hostile interpretation. In every case, please also quote the original wish so that people know which wish you are interpreting. I wouldnt be presumptious to lord over this thread in any other way other than to ask people to keep the spirit of the thread intact. Anyway, enough of this sidetracking... On with the wishing!
Super Chris 01-11-05, 04:26 AM	Still kind of curious about referencing something in a wish, like the example I posted.
glimeral 01-11-05, 05:09 AM	"An immortal is a living, breathing (ruling out petrification, undeath, and trap the soul) human (ruling out polymorph) who does not age while experiencing time normally (ruling out imprisonment and temporal stasis) and in his home plane (ruling out being sent to another plane)." The wizard then casts wish, stating "I wish to become immortal according to the definition I spoke immediately prior to casting wish."I didnt see your posting I appologise... Hmmmm, I really dont know how this would work. Normally wishes begin with "I wish" and truncate themselves very quickly (unless the DM is being kind). For one thing, the definition you gave is NOT the definition of immortality therefore, I would just rule that since you are already wishing for greater power than the spell reliably grants, it truncates your wish to the simplest form... A wish for immortality, especially since your definition of immortality stretches the fabric of the universe since it DEFIES the actual definition. Since the spell would have to bend reality quite strongly and in two different ways (first to change the definition of immortality according to the universe and second to grant you what you asked for) you are really asking for something that is going to shake your being to the bone. As to whether a wish could deal with prior statements... I guess that would be a DM call. A strict ruling is that only the words stated in the wish apply. Therefore, wishing "to become immortal according to the definition I spoke immediately prior to casting wish" would be a wish that is doomed to disaster, since the wish spell does not recognise anything you said prior, and the wish is left wondering what it is you actually said, therefore, the wish would completely ignore everything you said which it could not fulfill... leaving you with the following "I wish to become immortal" since the latter part of the wish is an unknown quantity which the spell cannot act upon. IMO however, I really am sitting on the fence of whether I would allow someone to try and bend the way wish works in this manner or not. I would have to think about this for quite a while before coming up to my own conclusions..... From reading throught the rules however, your guess is as good as mine since this issue isnt even contemplated by the rules, assuming that every aspect of your wish comes after the words "I wish" not before.
Shatteredtower 01-11-05, 05:54 AM	"I wish to know the precise wording of the wisest wish that can be wished." Hey, if I was granted the chance to have three wishes granted in life, that would be my first wish, save I'd make that "two wisest wishes." "I wish that all creatures everywhere are forever after this moment embodiments of pure goodness." (Repeat with chaos/law/evil/neutrality/peanut butter...) "I wish for a permanent end to ill will." "I wish the world was my oyster." "I wish there was no such thing as the impossible." "I wish that the citizenry of this kingdom/island/house/post office box are never again subjected to famine/disease/telemarketing/reality television." "I wish that genies/outsiders/spells were never able to grant wishes." "I wish for all of the terms in this document to be fulfilled precisely as detailed."
Kyuketsukiouji 01-11-05, 09:57 AM	Yes, it can, in my opinion. Wish, as I would interpret it, is virtually limitless in power. In the game world there is no description of the spell saying what it can or cannot do. And why not? Look at the situation from an in-game perspective. You have a spell. The Wish spell. Or whatever it's called in-game. This spell has an effect. It does things. These things are verifiable. Not only that, but a good chunk of the people who use this spell have genius+ intelligence levels. It's not strange to expect that these geniuses who cast the spell would start experimenting with it. One of the key questions that anyone making one or two wishes would obviously ask themselves is "How much can this spell do?". Probably followed rapidly by "Why did bob get his wish for a ring of evasion, and joe didn't get his wish for the strenght of a hundred dragons?". Eventually, the "safe" limits of Wish would have been narrowed down, just as it's easy to assume your average wizard can figure out, in-game, how stoneskin works, or magic missile works, or how a 20th level archmage's Greater Magic Weapon is more powerful than a 10th level wizard's. I see no reason to deny characters the knowledge of the base function of their spells. They wouldn't think in the same terms than we use, of course, but there's no reason a 10th level wizard wouldn't know his fireball is twice as damaging as it was when he was 5th level, or that a 20th level wizard wouldn't realise his fireball hasn't become bigger. Same thing with Wish. A caster should know, in-game, when he's wishing outside the safe zone. Of course, that only applies to casters.
karthos 01-11-05, 10:34 AM	I wish that the effect of all wishes I make matches my intent when I made the wish.
Keenath 01-11-05, 12:10 PM	I saw a nice one once in a discussion of wishes. The party of three rescued an efreet, though I don't think they realized what they'd rescued, and he said, "I'll give you each one wish as thanks!" So the first one wishes that all the world would know of his fame. And so he instantly transforms into a giant statue of himself in a heroic pose. The second player immediately twigs to the fact that this isn't a fair game, and I forget what he wished, but the net result was the collapse of a nearby hill, and the PC's burial beneath a thousand tons of stone. The third character looks up at the efreet, and in a panic, blurts, "I wish for no wishes!" For the rest of his career, he never found another wish, and that was just fine with him. :D
glimeral 01-11-05, 12:25 PM	Just so everyone is clear what the intent of this thread is. Im trying to create a tool that DMs can tap to get ideas of how to ajudicate IN CHARACTER wishes that they might face in the course of THEIR adventures which go beyond the powers that wish can reliably grant. It seems to me that many of the gamers on this thread are taking my intent to a juvenille level posting wishes that are either VERY METAGAME or are so outrageous, the only thing I can say is, if this was YOUR 16th level character, would you REALLY make a wish like that... If the answer is NO, then please give me a wish that you WOULD make that goes beyond the reliable powers (such as examples Ive given "I wish for the strength of a fire giant", "I wish for immortality", "I wish to own a staff of power" (in the DMG) etc). If you seriously would wish for such outrageous things with your precious characters life gambled on the lines, all I can say to you is.... You get what you deserve, and suggest that your DM be as cruel as they see fit since you are either metagaming to the nth degree, are a new player and really dont know what is a reasonable wish, or are just a powergrabbing player who is trying to make their DMs job as difficult as possible, most likely to complain about how the DM interprets your wish and rules-lawyering them until the wish suits YOURSELF. Now......... I am going to refuse to interpret such outrageous wishes from this moment on, since by interpretting them I am not fulfilling the spirit of this thread.... to provide a USEFUL resource for DMs to tap in order to ajudicate wishes. Please tell me how interpreting "I wish that all creatures everywhere are forever after this moment embodiments of pure goodness" is going to be a useful wish. I have a question to ask you about the nature of wishes like the one I posted above. What makes you think that some GOD or at least other cunning creature hasnt already attempted this wish upteen times? Logic dictates that any wish you can imagine, someone else has also imagined it and then worded it 100x better... especially since your PLAYER IQ probably falls in the realm of 13-15 DnD Intelligence (and some gods have 30 Intelligence +). Since you cannot see the effects of this wish (or even the effects of an even BETTER worded variation) anywhere around you, the only thing that you can safely assume is that their wish was countered/altered in some way shape or form otherwise you would never have had to make this wish as someone 100,000 years prior would have already made it. For that matter, since WISH is a 9th level spell, who is to say that at the dawn of time, those GENIUS gods who had the POWER to create a world didnt realise the sheer power of wish and say something to the effect of "I wish that all wishes that would seriously disrupt the natural order of the universe automatically fail from this moment forward" followed by another wish "I wish that any being that attempts a wish that would seriously disrupt the flow of the natural order of the universe be irrevocably annihilated" and followed by a third wish "I wish that was impossible by any means for any being that is irrevocably annihilated as a result of attempting a wish that would seriously disrupt the natural order of the universe be returned to life". I would think that at the dawn of time, by CONSENSUS the gods would have made such POWERFUL wishes such as the above (and then some) using their VAST intellects to think of any way in which mortals could abuse the power of wish, and wish that such power was beyond their ken. Even something as simple as "I wish for any wish that gods would fear to see granted automatically fail from this moment forward" would seriously put the pinch on what the players characters could wish for.... and it is very presumptious of the players/characters to think that wishes such as this havent been made AS A RESULT OF DIETIFIC WISH WARS and the signing of the WISH RESTRICTION TREATY which cut the power of wish from dietific power (or greater) down to something a lot less powerful. Given the assumption that these wishes are considered REALISTIC wishes that a GOD would make, we can safely assume that all of the above (and several SIMILAR wishes) have already been made, most likely prior to there ever being a mortal on the face of the world. Remember, your wish does not exist completely outside of the natural space/time continuum of the DnD world you are on. It follows on the back of hundreds of thousands of wishes that have come before it and therefore, since many of those wishes would have been made by paranoid beings throughout time, the wish spell would have been slowly (or quickly) whittled down in power, especially since those paranoid beings wouldnt want anyone else to rival them. Therefore, since your wish is number 1,648,605,991, the power of your wish is going to be far less powerful than any wish that has come before it... and wishes made in successive generations can be safely assumed to be less and less powerful until such times as wish cannot create anything greater than it can RELIABLY create. Have you ever wondered why the list of RELIABLE wishes is the way it is.... Isnt it an easy thing to believe that over time, creatures of great intellect have wished for the power of wish reduced? In the beginning of time, ALL wishes were 100% reliable and granted the wisher exactly what they wanted, exactly how they envisioned it, regardless of their wording. Smart creatures realised the danger of such wishes and quickly wished the power of wish was reduced to the level that they felt SAFE (I.E the list of guidelines in the spells description) however, due to the cunning wording of a rival beings wish (I wish that nothing is impossible for a wish to grant from this moment forward) who wanted to spread anarchy in the universe, the altruistic/paranoid beings instead wished for the following (I wish that from this moment forward until the end of time, any wish that I would find uncomfortable to see granted is perverted so that the wish is filled to its litteral wording but that it does not fulfill the wishers intended result) since the being couldnt undo the previous dieties wish (remembering, that prior to that wish being granted, there was no/little restrictions placed on the wish). This is an easy way to see why the guidelines are the way they are... If that diety/being would be uncomfortable to see something beyond that level of power, the wish is granted (due to the first beings wish) but in an unreliable fashion (due to the second beings wish). I can see that a WISH war whereby beings with acess to the ORIGINAL version of wish (prior to its power being reduced as a result of the wish war) realised the danger that it presented to the universe and had great battles of intellect OUTWISHING each other, until such times as the power of wish was reduced to its current level. For that matter, how do you know that the world and all the creatures in the world wasnt CREATED as part of this war. Please keep in mind that this is NOT outside the realm of possibility....Now along comes your mortal wizard who lives in the n-thousandth year since the worlds creation (and im not even talking since the multiverses creation here, just your worlds creation) and the power of his wish is reduced to a paltry shadow of what the great wishmakers of HISTORY were capable of achieving (as a result of some of these wishmakers wishing to reduce the power of wish in order to preserve the balance of the universe) and he wishes for something grand and wonderous, and due to his INSIGNIFICANT intelligence they fail to think of the possibility of what others have wished before them (especially in the case of characters with intelligence scores 13 or lower) although the GREED of intelligent characters might stop them from noticing such an occurance until AFTER they have made their wish and wonder why it didnt work as planned.
Sorti 01-11-05, 12:27 PM	"I wish for this wish to do something different from what I'm wishing"
Raven Dark 01-11-05, 12:29 PM	An attempt to get the spell-like ability Fireball at will. CL 18th. "I wish for the permanent innate ability to throw fireballs just as a Pit Fiend can." Note that this might also net me "quickened fireballs" 3/day. *** A deliberately ambiguous wish meant to rid mother of an illness. "I wish my mother well." I just want to see what you would do with such a vaguely worded wish. :D *** An attempt at gaining a unique natural weapon. "I wish I had regenerating spines upon my arms that I could hurl at my enemies like spears!" *** An attempt at not being killed by the attacking Pit Fiend. "I wish that, THAT Pit Fiend (points finger at charging Pit fiend) was friendly!" I WILL BE BACK...
Kyy'Dakh 01-11-05, 12:43 PM	In my best Stormy Waters (Sea Lab 2021) impression: "I wish to put my soul in a golem body." My sorc's currently considering building an effigy double of himself as a low-level alternative to clone, so alternative wish: "I wish to put my soul into this effigy."
glimeral 01-11-05, 12:47 PM	In other words.. I only want wishes that you would GAMBLE your 16th level+ characters ENTIRE EXISTANCE on, but ones that are considered to be in the realm of wishing for greater effect, because from this moment onwards, pretend I am your DM, and that there are ageless beings in the universe who made wishes in that vein at the DAWN OF TIME which isnt an unreasonable thing to assume. If you arent willing to gamble rerolling a new character, then reconsider your wish. Just to reitterate the intent of this thread. I am trying to make a useful list of IDEAS that a DM can tap in order to ajudicate wishes that OCCUR during their own campaign, without having to resort to capricious or cruel interpretations of the characters wish. The reason I want to create this list is so that PLAYERS will not fear that wishing for greater power than their wish can RELIABLY grant will not be a SCREW-CHARACTER session for the DM assuming of course, that what they are wishing for is WITHIN A REASONABLE LIMIT. In other words, how dangerous the wish is to cast is directly proportionate to how powerful the wish is if it was granted. In other words, if the wish can be granted without GAME BREAKING results, let them have their wish. Wishing for immortality can be granted without game breaking results.... Simply change their type to outsider (extraplanar), or transform their being into a low LA elemental/outsider/construct/undead creature... It is OK to grant them an LA race, and then make them have to earn the XP to advance to a new level (or if you are being nice, grant them the racial traits of the creatures MONSTER class, which forces them to spend the next X levels advancing in that class depending on the ECL of the creature they become). Depending on how nice you are, you could simply transform them into an IMMORTAL LA 0 creature such as an Elan, Warforged or Necropolitan, a +2 LA undead creature (such as a Lich) or a +3 Immortal LA creature such as a half-elemental/half-fiend/half-celestial (of their current race OR any race of your choosing). Then you can force them to have power now (grant them the full benefits now) but not grant them the XP that would normally come with such power therefore, having to adventure for X levels worth of catchup experience before they can gain another level. Alternatively you could grant them the racial traits of their NEW forms monster class, which forces them to spend the next X levels adventuring in their monster class before they can gain levels in any other class. In either case, giving them an LA race has cost them the upper levels in their characters FUTURE plan, forcing them to refocus their characters future in a different manner.... At the very least, MOST players will appreciate you granting them an LA template, unless said player is a paladin and you just turned them into a half-fiend altering their alignment in the process (although a nice DM would only alter the paladins alignment if the spell was cast by an efreet, otherwise even if they become a half-fiend their alignment remains the same as it currently is... which would make for some interesting RP situations when the LG half-fiend paladin tries to convince everyone that they arent an evil monster hell bent on distruction but are actually there to help/rescue them). That is the intention of my thread..... Can you honestly say that any player is going to be royally annoyed by being transformed into a template creature (or another LA0 race). Sure, some might be a little miffed if their characters vision didnt include that result, but thats the price that the CHARACTER pays for their wish, and, as is the case in real life... you cannot control EVERYTHING that happens to your character IN GAME. The LG half-fiend paladin will just have to get used to his new form.
Super Chris 01-11-05, 03:01 PM	I just figured it'd be worth putting some thought into refrencing outside material in a wish - in a modern-ish setting with magic, if outside material could be referenced, then any smart character would be first sure to speak to a lawyer to get help on his or her wish before making it in order to prevent loopholes.
glimeral 01-11-05, 03:25 PM	"I wish for the permanent innate ability to throw fireballs just as a Pit Fiend can."Wish:You gain the spell-like ability to cast fireball 1/day as an 18th level caster (the same as a pit fiend). In addition, the wish duplicates the effects of the 4th level psionic/wilder power psychic reformation erasing their last feat and replacing it with Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Fireball. An alternate method which is within the power of wish to fullfill, but requires the character to be an epic level character, with a caster level of 20 in any ONE class, and have the ability to qualify for the following feats: (Improved Spell Capacity [5th-11th level], Innate Spell: Fireball*, and Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Fireball*) Assuming the character meets these prerequisites, the wish duplictes the effects of the 4th level psionic/wilder power psychic reformation removing 4-12 feats of the players choice (providing that the player removes the minimum number of epic feats to qualify for the feats below) and gains the following feats instead: Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Improved Spell Capacity [5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th as required], Innate Spell: Fireball* and Quicken Spell-Like Ability:Fireball*. *Epic feat as it requires an 11th level spell slot which can only be gained by the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity [11th]. Having Quicken Spell-Like ability and Innate Spell, you can cast fireball as a spell-like ability at will (aka once per round) as well as cast a quickened fireball as a spell-like ability 3x per day (just as a pit fiend). Genie: As above except that you can only use your fireball 1/week. In both of the above cases, the character can now "throw fireballs just as a pit fiend can" although only once per day since you did not specify that you could cast them as FREQUENTLY as a pit fiend, only in the same WAY which you can now do since your fireball is a spell-like ability (same as a pit fiends), is cast at 18th caster level (same as a pitfiends) and can be quickened UPTO 3x/day (same as a pitfiends). The downside? You have traded one feat for a sub-optimal feat (quicken spell-like ability on a spell that you can only use once per day/week). A useful ability thats not game-breaking in power, but at the expense of a feat that you can only use once per week. I think thats a balanced interpretation. In the EPIC example, the psychic reformation removes the characters last 4-12 feats (in order) in place of the new feats. Efreeti:The wish grants you the spell-like ability to cast fireball at will (as an 18th level caster). In addition the wish duplicates the effects of the 4th level psionic/wilder power psychic reformation erasing their last feat and replacing it with Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Fireball. Finally, the wish duplicates the effects of the 8th level arcane spell bestow greater curse which causes any spell-like fireball that you cast to deal an equal amount of nonlethal fire damage to yourself as a backlash effect which ignores resistance/immunity to fire (fortitude save for half). The escape clause being you not using your spell-like fireball abilities. In the EPIC example above, the psychic reformation removes the characters BEST 4-12 feats starting with epic feats, and then working through their entire feat list removing all their good feats especially those at the top of a feat tree (whirlwind attack, Elusive Target, Defensive Throw, Karmic Strike, Forge Ring, Craft Staff etc).
glimeral 01-11-05, 04:06 PM	A deliberately ambiguous wish meant to rid mother of an illness. "I wish my mother well."This is an easy one. I assume by the statement you gave above, your "mother" is suffering from a disease, poison or other chronic effect of a similar nature? Wish: The wish duplicates the effects of the 6th level divine spell heal curing your mother of her affliction, unless conjuration is prohibitted to you, in which case the wish duplicates the effects of a remove blindness/deafness/curse/disease/fear/paralysis, restoration, neutralize poison, stone to flesh spell (whichever is appropriate) or, another similar spell effect. This spell is very much within the power of wish to grant RELIABLY, and even though it was ambiguously worded, it is not twisted because you are not wishing for an effect that counts as wishing for greater power, although I have met many DMs who would pervert this wish.... Its ambiguously worded wishes like this which is EXACTLY the type of wish I want to create this guide on, so that DMs dont AUTOMATICALLY interpret ALL wishes in a negative light... Although ambiguously worded, the wish spell already has a precedent that allows it to fulfill this wish by "duplicating the effects of any other spell of 7th level or lower providing its not from a prohibited school" or "duplicate the effects of any other spell of 5th level or lower even if its from a prohibitted school". Genie: The wish duplicates the effects of the LOWEST level spell which can achieve the desired results and, if there is multiple results that need to be removed, only the EASIEST is treated. If for example the "mother" in question is paralysed (naturally), suffering from disease, and poisoned, the wish will only remove the paralysis as per the remove paralysis spell, although if you are being nice, you might grant them several low level spell effects. Efreet:Your mother is transformed into a nasty undead creature capable of spawning more of its own kind (vampire, ghoul, shade etc)... The wish is fulfilled since undead are immune to disease/poison etc.
Darion Fenix 01-11-05, 04:10 PM	Here's one I had granted in a campaign. I'll tell you how my DM fulfilled it after you give me your interpretation. 25 year old level 12 something Fighter/Sorcerer Human male "I wish to be a copper dragon" Granted that there's a whole slew of modifiers I should/ought to have added to that, but I didn't.
IceFractal 01-11-05, 04:33 PM	An attempt at gaining a unique natural weapon. "I wish I had regenerating spines upon my arms that I could hurl at my enemies like spears!" Now this one's just too easy to pervert, because: 1) You didn't specify how effective the spines should be. 2) You didn't specify how many (other than at least 2), or how fast the regenerate. 3) You didn't specify what effect plucking the spines would have. So, first the wish interpretation: Since I'm trying to fufill this to the best of the spell's ability, I'll state that the spines count as daggers, so the ability basically counts as a slotless item that creates nonmagical daggers. Plucking a spine to throw it counts as drawing a weapon. Let's call this a first level spell because the 0 level psionic power "Bolt" can create ammunition, and nonmagical daggers aren't very powerful. An unslotted item of "Dagger" at will would cost 4,000 gp, which is well within the power of Wish, and even if "Dagger" was higher than 1st level it would almost certainly be possible. Therefore, wish grants you, say, three spines on each arm that count as daggers and regrow within one round. Any armor you wear must be custom fitted, at least in the arm area. Next the genie interpretation: The same as above, but the spines probably take longer to regrow, perhaps as much as a day, and they might not be sharp enough to do much damage. And now the efreet interpretation: Both your arms bristle with a multitude of spines (10 on each arm). The spines can be drawn and thrown as if they were daggers, but "drawing" (plucking) a spine creates a bleeding wound, causing you 1 point of Constitution damage, like the Wounding enhancement. The spine regrows instantly in a different spot instantly, doing 1d4 damage as it pierces your skin, but this doesn't close the wound. Armor has to be refitted to leave the arms uncovered obviously. Also, in any stressful situation you must make a Will save (DC 10 to 30, depending on how stressful it is), or have all your spines launch in random directions (you suffer the normal effects of drawing all 20 spines, i.e. 20 Con damage and 20d4 points of piercing damage). I'll note that this is fully within the power of a wish to grant, IMO, and thus it should only be perverted if an evil or unwilling party is granting the wish.
glimeral 01-11-05, 04:51 PM	An attempt at gaining a unique natural weapon. "I wish I had regenerating spines upon my arms that I could hurl at my enemies like spears!" I think Icefractal answered this one very very nicely... I was actually aiming for a similar effect although Icefractal wrote it better.... The only difference that I would like to note is that I was basing the spikes off of armor spikes/darts instead of daggers, allowing you to grapple with them or shoot them as darts. As to the number of them.. 10 per arm was how I was interpretting it, and they regenerate at the rate of 1/hour/arm (wish) or 1/day/arm (genie). In the case of the efreet, I was going to have them deal 1d6 nonlethal damage every time you detached one, and it regrew in one round dealing 1 point of constitution damage as it regrew (for a total effect being 1d6 nonlethal damage and 1 constitution damage per spike detached). Anyway, that was the differences between the two, although as I said above, Icefractal worded his better.
glimeral 01-11-05, 05:08 PM	An attempt at not being killed by the attacking Pit Fiend. "I wish that, THAT Pit Fiend (points finger at charging Pit fiend) was friendly!"This is an easy one. Wish: The pit fiends disposition changes to friendly as if you had succeeded on a successful diplomacy check. This is a simple one when you factor that the 4th level spell charm monster can achieve the same result for 1 day/level, although it requires a will save, and is negated by spell resistance. Although the pit fiend is friendly, the spell effect is instantaneous therefore, the actions you take (or that others take) can easily change the pit fiends attitude. Being nice, I am assuming the pit fiend is friendly towards you and your associates in this particular situation. Genie: As above except that the pitfiend is only friendly towards you (and still hostile towards others). This might make the pitfiend feel torn between their attitude towards you and how they feel about your allies when you ask them politely to "not harm my OTHER friends". Efreeti: The pit fiends attitude changes to friendly for a single round. At the end of this round the pit fiend returns to its previous attitude. Alternatively, since you did not state "friendly towards me/towards me and my allies" this can also be interpretted so that the pitfiend instantly becomes friendly to any random creature/NPC/Player in the entire game world, perhaps say... your animal companion.
glimeral 01-11-05, 05:26 PM	In my best Stormy Waters (Sea Lab 2021) impression: "I wish to put my soul in a golem body." This is an easy one. Wish:You are magic jarred into a gem in the possession of a randomly determined golem with the incarnate construct template (savage species). You sense the presence of a creature within the same square as yourself. Naturally you will use magic jar to possess their body, and as soon as you do that your wish is fulfilled. Since you didnt mention duration, and since you didnt specify a MINDLESS golem, magic jar fits the bill nicely. A nice DM might instead allow you to permanently take over the body of a randomly determined golem which is affected by the incarnate construct spell immediately upon you entering its body (with your soul becoming the soul of the incarnate construct golem). You would keep your mental statistics but would have the average physical statistics for an incarnate construct golem of this kind. A very nice DM might allow the player to determine which type of incarnate construct golem they wish to be. Genie: As above except that the golem type is ALWAYS random or, if its not random, is the WEAKEST golem type. Efreeti: Your consciousness is imprisoned within the body of a newly created golem, taking the place of the elemental spirit which animates the golem. Congratulations, you are now a mindless construct.
carnivore 01-11-05, 05:27 PM	i wish that the shapechange spell that i have just cast on myself would remain under my full control while remaining active permanently allowing me to indefinately alter my form as the spell discription describes so as to gain all the benefits of each form i choose to shapechange into. :D
glimeral 01-11-05, 05:43 PM	"I wish to be a copper dragon"This is easy. Wish: The wish duplicates the effects of a shapechange spell of equal CL which polymorphs you into a copper dragon for the duration of the spell. This interpretation is very much a valid and RELIABLE interpretation of the wording that you gave above. Alternatively, a nice DM might instead interprete the wish so that it transforms you into a wyrmling copper dragon. You must make a spellcraft check. For every point by which the check exceeds 20, you have a 5% chance to have the goal creatures abilities which must be rolled for every ability. The only characteristics you gain automatically are size, type, statistics and natural attacks. Genie: As above except the spell is polymorph self. Efreeti: You transform into a COPPER statue of a dragon valued at 25,000gp (just to irk the player of their previous character). Alternatively, you gain the possession spell-like ability (from BoVD). As soon as you gain this ability you involuntarily become ethereal (as per the ability) and are transported via the ethereal plane to the location of the nearest copper dragon. If you use your possession ability on the dragon, you effectively become a copper dragon although this would constitute an evil act and therefore instantly shift your alignment to evil (or at best neutral).
KittenWarrior 01-11-05, 07:32 PM	.. The fact that I failed to see the exact wording of your wish only shows that I am human, and prone to human frailties (like overlooking something) lolol.No problem.. I did enjoy your creative ways of handling my wish, but they're not what you set out to do, which I think was to reshape the wish into something of a more manageble power level. Sparking Ragnarok or robbing deities of their abilities is not any less powerful than enhancing the stats of a mortal (in fact, very much more powerful IMO). About your alternative solution and my comment: Perhaps 'lame' was a poor choice of word on my part. The point is that altering someone's perception of reality so that they believe their wish is granted is not the same as granting the wish, or toning down it's effect. What you do when altering someones perception of reality is creating a completely different kind of effect which has nothing to do with the wish itself. Unless of course the character is a convinced solipsist and his or her reality is indeed shaped by their perception of it. But let's not get into a philosophical argument on this board. As far as the game world is concerned, I think we can assume that there is sucha a thing as an objective reality, and if that isn't changed by the wish, then the wish had nothing to do with the effect created. That's what I intended to say. Cheers, KW
glimeral 01-11-05, 07:35 PM	No problem.. I did enjoy your creative ways of handling my wish, but they're not what you set out to do, which I think was to reshape the wish into something of a more manageble power level. Sparking Ragnarok or robbing deities of their abilities is not any less powerful than enhancing the stats of a mortal (in fact, very much more powerful IMO).Your wish was very hard to ajudicate.. I spent over an hour and closer to 2 or 3 hours working on it and that was the best I could come up with and still fulfill your wish and I was researching through about 15 books minimum although admittedly, I probably overlooked many spells that could have done a better job.
Darion Fenix 01-11-05, 07:38 PM	Hmm...Well, my DM permanently transformed me in to a copper dragon...but only a 25 year old copper dragon (Young category) with 13 HD. I lost all of my character levels and my magic armor and weapons were absorbed in to my new form, as we my gold and everything else I happened to be carrying. A Young Copper with no magical gear is actually pretty well suited to travel with other 12-13th level characters.
glimeral 01-11-05, 07:51 PM	A young copper dragon (13 HD) is ECL 17 regardless of whether it has treasure or not due to its +4 level adjustment. The ECL of a creature is independant to whether it has gear or not. I could send you up against said young copper dragon when it is flying through the forest (and therefore has 0 treasure) and it would still be a CR 7 encounter (and the copper dragon would still be an ECL 17 creature). Same applies with other characters. A 20th level fighter who is captured, sold into slavery and only has the clothes on his back is still a 20th level character (ECL 20). He doesnt suddenly become lower level (or lower ECL) just because he has no equipment. Therefore, your DM was very nice to you since you were an ECL 17 creature in a party of ECL 12 characters. Especially when you factor that a dragon doesnt need a single gold piece to be a formidable opponent of their CR/ECL. They have all the natural weapons, supernatural/spell-like abilities that they could want. What use do they really have of equipment except for two rings, and an amulet (since they cant wear anything else and using weapons is pointless). No, I would rule that your dragon was OVERPOWERED compared to other characters...even without his gear.
Super Chris 01-11-05, 07:54 PM	I wish I was young again. I wish I knew everything. I wish I could change the past. Oh I wish, oh I wish, oh I wish I was a fish. :)
glimeral 01-11-05, 08:28 PM	I wish I was young again. Wish: Your age reverts to your starting age as determined by your 1st level class. I dont see this as an overpowered wish at all and has little mechanical effects unless you have been magically aged numerous times, especially since very few characters age more than 10 or 15 years (if that) during their entire adventuring career before a new campaign starts. Genie: As above. Efreet:You regress in age to the age of a newborn regressing to a 0-level infant. I wish I could change the past. Wish: This wish would be interpretted in such a manner that you simply gain the benefits of wishing to undo misfortune or any ONE single event in the recent past. Genie: As above although I would rule that it only applies to one single recent misfortune. Efreeti: The numerical effects of the most recent misfortune that befell you is worsened such as the damage suffered from a single attack being treated as a critical hit, treating a critical hit as a threat kill (as if the confirmation roll was a natural 20) which is immediately rolled, or treating a critical hit that was a FAILED kill (I.E the confirmation roll was a natural 20 but the attack failed to confirm a kill) as a confirmed kill; or treating your successful reflex save for half damage as a failed reflex save, treating the effects of the last spell to harm you as if it was maximized, empowered or some other more harmful effect. There, you have changed the past, for the WORSE. Oh I wish, oh I wish, oh I wish I was a fish. :)Wish: The wish duplicates the effects of a shapechange spell cast on yourself which transforms you into an ordinary fish on the first round (you have control of the shapechange in successive rounds however). Genie: As above except the spell is baleful polymorph which you voluntarily fail the saving throw on as this is implied by the wording of your wish. Only the first saving throw is voluntarily failed forcing you to make a will saving throw as indicated in the spells description. Efreeti: The wish duplicates the effects of the 5th level Warlock Invocation Word of Changing which you voluntarily fail the save for as this is implied by the wording of your wish. You must now make a will saving throw as per baleful polymorph in order to retain your abilities. 24 hours later you must make one last saving throw otherwise the duration becomes permanent. I would rule that duplicating a warlocks invocation would be an equivilent wish that "duplicates the effects of any other spell of 5th level or lower, even if its of a school prohibitted to you" since warlock invocations are prohibitted to all non-warlocks, and are not actually spells.
wolf_mage 01-11-05, 10:02 PM	This one is a wish I would actually like to use: I wish for an additional 9th-level spell slot that does not replace any of my current abilities. Remember, before you say "metagaming", that this is the player's wording of the wish. The PC probably said "I wish to expand my spirit energy to be able to cast my most powerful spells once more per day." Or something. Also, if you would accept this wish, what about two spell slots? or three? Basically, how many additional spell slots do I get before my wish is perverted?
Shatteredtower 01-12-05, 03:22 AM	It seems to me that many of the gamers on this thread are taking my intent to a juvenille level posting wishes that are either VERY METAGAME or are so outrageous, the only thing I can say is, if this was YOUR 16th level character, would you REALLY make a wish like that... Ah ah ah. Accusations of metagaming should never come in the same sentence as asking what my 16th level character would do is hypocritical at best. At worst, it shows that your exercise is hopelessly flawed. If you seriously would wish for such outrageous things with your precious characters life gambled on the lines, all I can say to you is.... You get what you deserve, and suggest that your DM be as cruel as they see fit since you are either metagaming to the nth degree, are a new player and really dont know what is a reasonable wish, or are just a powergrabbing player who is trying to make their DMs job as difficult as possible, most likely to complain about how the DM interprets your wish and rules-lawyering them until the wish suits YOURSELF. Yes, by all means, if you don't have an answer and don't want to concede that you are in the wrong, be insulting. "I wish that all creatures everywhere are forever after this moment embodiments of pure goodness" is going to be a useful wish. You're serious? You have got to be putting me on. No, seriously, how could you possibly be prepared to offer guidelines and NOT address a wish that a misguided saint or paladin might try. Good grief, that's just sad. And if I've heard folklore of the evil that has come to people from magic that could grant wishes, the bad ends that come to those who have bargained with an efreet or a pit fiend, and I choose to wish that such temptations are never again available to mortals, what then? If anything, these are not metagame wishes. These are idealist wishes -- and ignoring the wishes of idealism in this exercise is indulging in metagaming hypocrisy. I have a question to ask you about the nature of wishes like the one I posted above. What makes you think that some GOD or at least other cunning creature hasnt already attempted this wish upteen times? The thought might cross my character's mind. Of course, if it crossed every one of my characters' minds, I'd be metagaming. That's really not so hard to see, is it? Logic dictates that any wish you can imagine, someone else has also imagined it and then worded it 100x better... Nice try, but you cannot substantiate this claim. ...especially since your PLAYER IQ probably falls in the realm of 13-15 DnD Intelligence (and some gods have 30 Intelligence +). What does that have to do with anything? I'm a pious but foolish half-orc who knows little of the gods. I've done some pretty amazing things, but I get this opportunity and this idea in my head -- possibly even planted by the efreeti, you know -- and it honestly never occurs me to wonder why no one else tried it before. Or maybe I'm a bright enough scholar, full of hubris, who simply assumes that everyone else given such an opportunity was either greedy or immortal and waiting for a good-hearted mortal such as I to make such a request, putting an end to a struggle that has long been waged from the mortal plane through its occupants. Really, all it takes is some non-metagame thinking. Since you cannot see the effects of this wish (or even the effects of an even BETTER worded variation) anywhere around you, the only thing that you can safely assume is that their wish was countered/altered in some way shape or form otherwise you would never have had to make this wish as someone 100,000 years prior would have already made it. Or you can assume that it was never made at all. Or it doesn't occur to you that you weren't the first to make it. Or... hey, the human mind is a lot more complex than you're giving it credit for -- and let's not forget the elves, orcs, aboleths, dragons, slaadi... Hmm... time to snip forward. Even something as simple as "I wish for any wish that gods would fear to see granted automatically fail from this moment forward" would seriously put the pinch on what the players characters could wish for.... and it is very presumptious of the players/characters to think that wishes such as this havent been made AS A RESULT OF DIETIFIC WISH WARS and the signing of the WISH RESTRICTION TREATY which cut the power of wish from dietific power (or greater) down to something a lot less powerful. Ah, what a wonderful metagame explanation. Say, would knowledge of this sort of thing be covered by Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion), do you think? Because if not, it's just a load of garbage that begs the question. Given the assumption... And there's you're problem right there. You're assuming on so many levels to render any point you might hope to make null and void. You assume the gods took care of this -- a reasonable assumption, perhaps. You also assume that the characters must realize this, which is a real stretch. You further assume that even if the thought occurs to them, they must obviously realize that there is no point in trying, which is metagaming presumption on your part. Have you ever wondered why the list of RELIABLE wishes is the way it is... Game balance. But let's not talk about metagaming here... you were trying to make a point. Isn't it an easy thing to believe that over time, creatures of great intellect have wished for the power of wish reduced? Sure -- but that's just one possibility. After all, let's read the words: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects that these, but doing so is dangerous." Note that at least one of those items on the list exceeds any other 9th level spell in power -- the wish to translocate over a dozen creatures from one plane and drop them anywhere on another plane. You can indeed break the spell level cap on making wishes, but not reliably. With the exception of the oyster wish, each of the ones I offered is completely plausible from the right character. Responding to the list with a house-ruled rant about exactly why wishes work as they do in your game does not help your case any. If you can't address them, there simply is no point to your exercise, because you've already admitted that it can't work. A shame, that, but I guess I gave too much credit here.
Raven Dark 01-12-05, 03:56 AM	An attempt to get something akin to Harry Potter's magcial map. "I wish for a magical map that continually shows everything within 1,000 feet of its wielder at any given moment." *** An attempt to save a wizard's money. "I wish my spellbook was completely filled with a large variety of useful spells." *** Just something I thought would be funny. "I wish that, THAT dragon (points at diving dragon) could only ever breathe grape jam!" *** Again, just to see your responce. "I wish I had a 20 sided die that, when rolled, would dictate the outcome of any given action taken by our adventuring party." *** Another intentionally ambiguous wish meant to give godly strength. "I wish I could move mountains." *** Again, an ambiguous wish. "I wish I had a large deadly pet that would obey only me with absolute loyalty." I'LL GET BACK TO YOU... :D
glimeral 01-12-05, 04:40 AM	You're serious? You have got to be putting me on. No, seriously, how could you possibly be prepared to offer guidelines and NOT address a wish that a misguided saint or paladin might try. Good grief, that's just sad. If anything, these are not metagame wishes. These are idealist wishes -- and ignoring the wishes of idealism in this exercise is indulging in metagaming hypocrisy. Im not ignoring it. Im merely stating that the law of probability means that someone has wished for this before, although not neccessarily in the same exact wording. My logic is that according to the law of probability, why is it that the other persons wish isnt evident in the world. Thats all I was pointing out. You are forgetting one aspect when making your wishes which you most definately WOULDNT forget if you were in character.... Your CHARACTER has every bit as much fear about survival and material loss (and other forms of loss) as you or I does, therefore, they wouldnt wish for anything that they thought would cause their survival or current assets (material goods, class abilities, race, allies etc) on the line unless they overlooked something, in which case to THEIR knowledge, they were not putting anything on the line at all. IN CHARACTER, would you consider me an unfair DM if I stripped your 16th level character of all their material wealth PERMANENTLY, and force them to start accumulating it again from scratch, never making up the lost treasure in any future way (only granting you new treasure as appropriate for your encounters)? Of course you would. Therefore, it shows that you have an INVESTED interest in your character. I want that INVESTED interest brought forth in the wishes that are made, since only wishes where you have an INVESTED interest in the outcome are seriously going to be made IN GAME, and since I am trying to create a guide that DMs can use to give them ideas on ajudicating IN GAME wishes where the players have an INVESTED interest in their characters wellbeing, expecting me of answering wishes which are going to be of absolutely no benefit to a DM running a campaign is wasting the entire purpose of this thread, and is only going to force DMs to wade through the chaff to get to the good stuff... I was sort of hoping for good gaming sense to come across on this thread, and for people to HELP me create a SERIOUS and USEFUL game tool. Im not trying to create a joke thread here, but perhaps I should have given the thread a better title, or a better worded introduction.... I have a wish of my own..... "I wish that I knew how people on this thread would interpret the threads title, introduction and spirit before pressing enter on my keyboard and subsequently posting the thread". In other words, I wish what I know now so I could make the wording better, and more concise.
taltamir 01-12-05, 04:44 AM	That thing with his definition of immortal not being the "true" definition, who determines whats the true definition of a word? If you insist, then fine! "A graghssbasdfasklna is a living, breathing (ruling out petrification, undeath, and trap the soul) human (ruling out polymorph) who does not age while experiencing time normally (ruling out imprisonment and temporal stasis) and in his home plane (ruling out being sent to another plane)." The wizard then casts wish, stating "I wish to become a graghssbasdfasklna." If you really insist, he could just use the first wish to change the definition. "I wish to create a new word, graghssbasdfasklna which means...." And then precede to wish to be one. How would you fulfil this wish?
taltamir 01-12-05, 04:56 AM	A young copper dragon (13 HD) is ECL 17 regardless of whether it has treasure or not due to its +4 level adjustment. The ECL of a creature is independant to whether it has gear or not. I could send you up against said young copper dragon when it is flying through the forest (and therefore has 0 treasure) and it would still be a CR 7 encounter (and the copper dragon would still be an ECL 17 creature). Same applies with other characters. A 20th level fighter who is captured, sold into slavery and only has the clothes on his back is still a 20th level character (ECL 20). He doesnt suddenly become lower level (or lower ECL) just because he has no equipment. Therefore, your DM was very nice to you since you were an ECL 17 creature in a party of ECL 12 characters. Especially when you factor that a dragon doesnt need a single gold piece to be a formidable opponent of their CR/ECL. They have all the natural weapons, supernatural/spell-like abilities that they could want. What use do they really have of equipment except for two rings, and an amulet (since they cant wear anything else and using weapons is pointless). No, I would rule that your dragon was OVERPOWERED compared to other characters...even without his gear. Actually ECL IS adjusted by the power of the items the create is carrying, it specifically says so in the DM guide. And ECL is ENCOUNTER LEVEL, NOT PC level. Encounter levels are different then PC levels, they are calculated differently and dont mean the same, an ECL 17 monster and a level 17 player are not considered equal.
Shatteredtower 01-12-05, 07:32 AM	Since Glimeral insists on dancing around the issue with hypothetical metagaming, I've taken the liberty to respond to the wishes I put forth to him myself. Hopefully, this will be instructive in avoiding the repetition of a number of careless mistakes made here. Let's go down the list, shall we? "I wish to know the precise wording of the wisest wish that can be wished." Seriously, how is this metagaming when it is, quite frankly, the sort of wish I would personally make if confronted by a wish granting genie? I realize that the wish could very well be wasted, but I also know that I stand to be wiser from the experience -- and as likely to be alive as I would be if I'd wished for anything more than, "I wish to know the phone number of-" and give the identity of a friend I've lost contact with. (Asking for more than that -- even for something as simple as turning a few pebbles into gold or the salmon in your sandwich to tuna -- can be suicidal.) This one can be easy. Your DM can inform you, "You can not determine how the result you received from this wish could possibly benefit anyone, in particular yourself. Indeed, it seems meaningless for you personally to make such a wish." After all, there is nothing to say that it would be the wisest wish for you to make. It might very well be the wisest wish for a god, a demon, an object incapable of thought or activity whatsoever. That's one approach. The other is partial fulfillment. You've used two wishes to determine the best way to word your next wish, not so much that it doesn't fail, but so that it is least likely to blow up in your face or grant the closest approximation you can reasonably expect to be granted to your intent. After all, you are giving up a wish (and possibly 5000 xp) for this. "I wish that all creatures everywhere are forever after this moment embodiments of pure goodness." (Repeat with chaos/law/evil/neutrality/peanut butter...) This is a simple partial fulfillment wish: the wishing party is immediately the recipient of an atonement spell -- or polymorph any object in the case of peanut butter. If the wish is twisted, the character is joined with the appropriate Outer Plane (again, partial fulfillment with a twist) or polymorphed into peanut butter. "I wish for a permanent end to ill will." This begs for the wishing party to be the subject of temporal stasis, but partial fulfillment might allow calm emotions, a symbol of sleep, or even a mass charm (especially if the charming entity is the djinn or efreet). "I wish the world was my oyster." Partial fulfillment/distortion: the character is polymorphed into an oyster. "I wish there was no such thing as the impossible." One could simply rule that this one is already fulfilled, since it's in the past tense. However, since it's also a paradox, it is probably better distorted to make the recipient believe one impossible thing. Should that impossible thing become possible, the wish is still being partially fulfilled and the terms of the spell are still met. "I wish that the citizenry of this kingdom/island/house/post office box are never again subjected to famine/disease/telemarketing/reality television." Distortion results in starvation, disintegration, or the loss of your telephone or television. Partial fulfillment also covers the last two, and will create food and water for the first and cast remove disease on the wishing party for the second. "I wish that genies/outsiders/spells were never able to grant wishes." Again, we have a paradox, though it is one that could be avoided by more careful wording. Partial fulfillment results in nothing happening as a result of that wish. Twisting results in a noble djinn or efreet being freed of the compulsion to grant any more wishes to the "beneficiary" and it's worse for someone who bargained for this from a pit fiend. Another twist that's available is that you are never able to learn this spell or limited wish. To lose the ability to cast this spell (if you were the one to make the wish) is too severe a ruling -- a null wish granting that costs you the xp component of the spell is punishment enough. "I wish for all of the terms in this document to be fulfilled precisely as detailed." This is a perfectly natural wish for someone to try -- once. It is not metagaming, because I can assure you that there are people living on this planet of ours that would indeed try this very thing if they acquired the favour of a genie. The wording of the wish above is careless, however: the granting power can fulfill the conditions by rewording the document to state something that is already in effect. If it were worded more carefully -- say to finish with "...precisely as I have detailed it" -- then we go to a partial fulfillment. No doubt you can see how dangerous that could be to the wishing party. A djinn might grant that which requires the least amount of change. An efreet might grant that most likely to be twisted. A ring or spell might just grant the first item on the list within the limits of partial fulfillment. Indeed, in most of the requests to appear on this thread, partial fulfillment covers it. Wish for the strength of Herakles and you get a +1 inherent bonus to Strength. Wish then for the strength of Atlas and you get another +1 bonus to Strength, which naturally doesn't stack with the first bonus. If your DM made the mistake of granting you the full strength score of a specific deity until the deity's "turn", your DM has not considered the repercussions on the game if this is the way the spell worked. Say that instead of wishing for the strength of Herakles, you asked for the strength of Atlas. Even assuming that said titan could wish for his strength back, you've left him inadequately equipped to support the world on his shoulders for long enough to -- well, let's just say that it's a good thing for him that a falling object can only do 20d6 hp of damage at most. Mind you, every creature and object on the world is taking at least a few d6 hp of damage along with him, which is an epic level effect. It doesn't matter that your campaign doesn't feature Atlas, or doesn't feature him in the role of world bearer. An interpretation of the rules of wish to allow even a momentary transfer of divine power to a wishing party will result in some such disaster -- fall of Netheril in the Forgotten Realms, for example? The need for such an interpretation is, in fact, completely unnecessary, because the spell, by the RAW, can result in a partial fulfillment of what is wished for, which is what is granted by a +1 inherent bonus. Likewise, "I wish to have wings like an eagle," can either polymorph you into an eagle, summon an eagle for you, or produce the carcass of an eagle. There is no need to actually place eagle wings on the wishing party in any of these cases. Simulating any other spell that would allow the caster to grow a pair of eagle wings could also work. "I wish to grow a pair of eagle wings," otherwise polymorphs the caster into a fertilized eagle egg. More careful wording could grant the wisher a humanoid form with eagle wings for a duration equal to that of alter self. The Midas touch wish is just a wish for a single item worth up to 25000 gp value. Something appears in your hand and is turned to gold, thus completing a partial fulfillment. Having an efreet try to throw a sack over the PC's head for the same result is not advisable, since it might miss -- much better for a gold coin to appear in the character's hand and have that turn to gold. Wishes for knowledge of any sort can duplicate one of the higher level divinations. You might not care for the contact other plane result, however. Wishes for alteration to a templated form can involve showing the rituals that would allow one to gain such a template, but it's nearly impossible to just become a half-anything. "I wish to have the blood of a celestial," gets you a vial of celestial blood. "I wish to be descended from a dragon" polymorphs you into a dragon, while a similar wish to be the descendant of a balor might allow you to sidestep the normal limits on a polymorph spell and take outsider form or merely shape, subject to HD limits -- you may easily wind up with a lesser demon form, since we're going with partial fulfillment here. The 9th level spell wishes aren't beyond an attempt either, of course. Wishes for gate effects likely wind up with the teleporting of a creature from one plane to your location, provided if fails a Will save and the wish overcomes spell resistance. Control is your problem. A meteor swarm probably gets you one meteor, two at best, due to partial fulfillment. Imprisonment gets a temporal stasis, astral projection gets plane shift, prismatic sphere comes out as a wall, time stop puts you in temporal stasis if you tried this with an efreet (but might let you skip straight to your turn in the next round if your DM is feeling generous -- or it might just cast daze monster on everyone else), and wail of the banshee comes out as either a great shout, a finger of death, or a death spell. Lesser, similar effects are plentiful in cases like this. In conclusion, I feel that Glimeral is trying too hard to reinterpret a spell that already covers his methods in a much simpler fashion. Follow that example at your own peril.
Ravens Claw 01-12-05, 09:26 AM	Try beating this I wish to permanately gain blindsight ranging from myself to 200ft, without any adverse effects by my definition. Cheers
Shatteredtower 01-12-05, 09:32 AM	All right, I have obviously displayed a more heated response than was merited. My apologies to all concerned, especially Glimeral. I'll leave the previous post up for the examples themselves, however, but otherwise withdraw from this thread.
Metabubbles 01-12-05, 10:20 AM	I understand the need to correct people, especially if Dm's will forever use this thread, I just 'wished' you didn't have to. Good idea to just ignore the useless wishes (aka thor str...etc....), if people don't like your opinion, well guess what it is an opininon/interpretation of the spell. Can you post a wish thread for 'players' so they get the most out of a particular wish. Like correcting the wording and advising on what to say to have that wish come true? "I wish I have possesion of all items I have owned, like money, weapons, armor, magical items, within this cave I am looking at on hill X, right now in front of me everlasting that i am able to sell, take or use again anywhere i go." Sorry if this is too much, or too specific or whatever, thanks, keep up the good work, and as soon as I post this i know I will have forgotten something.
Raven Dark 01-12-05, 11:35 AM	All right, I have obviously displayed a more heated response than was merited. My apologies to all concerned, especially Glimeral. I'll leave the previous post up for the examples themselves, however, but otherwise withdraw from this thread. Does this mean you are finally leaving? Yay! :D Oh, I mean uh... *clears throat* ...We'll miss your insightful answers. :weep: Goodbye.
taltamir 01-12-05, 03:49 PM	"I wish to know the precise wording of the wisest wish that can be wished." Result: Suddenly you are struck with innate knowledge of the exact limits of the spell, You know you may wish for an item up to 25,000 Gold or a +1 inherant bonus to a single attributes without any ill effects, or any other thing outlined in the spell description; making those the best wisest wishes one might ask for! Your CHARACTER is assumed to know the EXACT information given in the PHB about the wish spell, and you may peruse it at any time to help you decide on making a wish. And I whole heartedly agree with what you said about all those wishes being what people would ask for in real life. When I saw aladin for the first time, and didn't even know what DnD was I thought to myself "what an idiot, he should wish for knowledge on what to wish for"... I later revised it to something else. How about I let you guys take a crack at fulfiling my wish: My most revised wish (again, made before I heard of dnd) to make in real life if I ever got the chance was: "I wish for an item with access to all true knowledge that would be able to supply me with that knowledge by directly imprinting it in my mind when I so desire it." And I also intended to offer the SECOND AND THIRD wish to free the genie of his/her bond to fulfil wishes, or whatever else they might desire... The reason I wanted an item is because I didnt want to overload my mind with omnicience all at once. Once I would have aquired that item I would have first used it to detect any threats to myself or it. And then to know how to diffuse them. Once that is done I would have used it to find about any magic/supernatural powers in existance, and any talents for such I might possess, and then for appropriate knowledge on how to unlock them. I would also ask for much knowledge on the physical world, knowledge on the creation of certain new inventions which I could use as a source of income (patents), and knowledge on how to obtain immortality.
glimeral 01-12-05, 03:58 PM	"I wish for a permanent end to ill will." ....partial fulfillment might allow calm emotions, a symbol of sleep, or even a mass charm (especially if the charming entity is the djinn or efreet). "I wish the world was my oyster." Partial fulfillment/distortion: the character is polymorphed into an oyster. Very good interpretations that I DID NOT SEE for these wishes and most of the wishes that you answered in the same posting. I did say that I wanted GOOD interpretations... Claps, you just gave a very good one that I overlooked. Remember, I am only human and only have ONE perspective.... It is answers like this that I WANT to have in this thread as it creates a USEFUL result for the DM. "I wish to know the precise wording of the wisest wish that can be wished." Result: Suddenly you are struck with innate knowledge of the exact limits of the spell, You know you may wish for an item up to 25,000 Gold or a +1 inherant bonus to a single attributes without any ill effects, making those the best wisest wishes one might ask for! Same situation. A very good interpretation that I failed to see myself. I was looking at wishes like this from a completely different perspective, and my comments regarding metagame came from THAT perspective ONLY. Unlike a lot of people, I can admit when I was wrong.. and in light of these examples, it is clear that the wishes that I thought were TOO hard to answer, were in fact very easy to answer if you came at it from a different perspective. Looking at wishes from a different perspective than the DM normally would in order to create fair, equitable wish rulings is the ENTIRE point of this thread. And that statement goes for ME too and that the point of this thread is also for MY benefit as a DM since I am a DM in many campaigns and therefore, as I never ruled myself out of the line by saying DMs excluding myself, I am in the same boat.... FYI, I would never presume to know ALL the answers.... however, the opinions I gave about your assumption that the wish has not been attempted before is still a SOUND logical opinion. That being said, the answers above are simple, better resolutions than even I came up with.
taltamir 01-12-05, 04:13 PM	Thats quite alright, we are just human after all. XP.. But how would you go about fulfilling my wish? And I whole heartedly agree with what you said about all those wishes being what people would ask for in real life. When I saw aladin for the first time, and didn't even know what DnD was I thought to myself "what an idiot, he should wish for knowledge on what to wish for"... I later revised it to something else. How about I let you guys take a crack at fulfiling my wish: My most revised wish (again, made before I heard of dnd) to make in real life if I ever got the chance was: "I wish for an item with access to all true knowledge that would be able to supply me with that knowledge by directly imprinting it in my mind when I so desire it." And I also intended to offer the SECOND AND THIRD wish to free the genie of his/her bond to fulfil wishes, or whatever else they might desire... The reason I wanted an item is because I didnt want to overload my mind with omnicience all at once. Once I would have aquired that item I would have first used it to detect any threats to myself or it. And then to know how to diffuse them. Once that is done I would have used it to find about any magic/supernatural powers in existance, and any talents for such I might possess, and then for appropriate knowledge on how to unlock them. I would also ask for much knowledge on the physical world, knowledge on the creation of certain new inventions which I could use as a source of income (patents), and knowledge on how to obtain immortality. Also... I wish the world was my oyster isnt wishing to be an oyster, its a figure of speach. It deals with fitting in and just making the best of things. In which case I would rule that the wish geases you to make the best of things, to fit in, and to enjoy the good things of life. Congradulation, the world is now your oyster. And here is a nother wish: I wish for greater mental faculties. This is a NON metagaming wish, since most people in real life dont split mental faculties into charisma, intelligence, and wisdom like the rules in dnd do. How would you go about fulfilling this? I would GUESS just give a +1 inherant bonus... but to which item? I would think it should go to something with a current odd stat, lowest one to enhance the OVERALL mental faculties the most, or intelligence, or just the one thats the prime casting attribute for that specific character. There are probably more possible answers... how would you do it?
carnivore 01-12-05, 04:13 PM	i wish that the shapechange spell that i have just cast on myself would remain under my full control while remaining active permanently allowing me to indefinately alter my form as the spell discription describes so as to gain all the benefits of each form i choose to shapechange into with no adverse effects to myself. :ayyyy!:
taltamir 01-12-05, 04:32 PM	Spell: The wish spell duplicates the effect of the spell permanency. It takes, in addition to the 5000XP, an appropriate amount of XP to make that spell permanent, (500XP times spell level). This application can be dispelled. Item: The spell siphons the extra XP needed to make the spell permanent from you. This happens if its POSSIBLE to make that spell permanent, instead of researching this application (as per permanency rules), you simply use the wish spell to duplicate it. If it is not possible, I would go with partial fulfilment of giving you a magic item that can cast it X times a day. Neutral granter: Just give you an item that can cast it X times a day (based on how much it costs) Hostile granter: Gives you said item... except the item is cursed... the cursed item would be designed to corrupt you over time... BTW, I would like to point out that evil isnt about just harming people. Demons and devils would go out of their way to corrupt you, or to gain something themselves. They will give you power, as long as they benefit from it. That benefit could be buying your soul, or having you enter into their service, or simply corrupting you. Corruption by giving items that are cursed to do so is a very good way to fulfil wishes. The item could for example, cause dreams in which you do horrible things to people, and enjoy it....
carnivore 01-12-05, 05:00 PM	interesting.......if i had a choice , i would rather have choice #2, it is the most beneficial with the least drawbacks to myself. not exactly what i thought it would be.........thank you for your time and effort. :tiphat:
VampricNecromancer 01-12-05, 05:57 PM	Just something I thought would be funny. "I wish that, THAT dragon (points at diving dragon) could only ever breathe grape jam!" Wish- it suffocates(only breathes Grape jam) if it fails a Fort as per a finger of Death spell Genie-the jam is Acidic/Freezing/Electricly charged/Burning/ ECT... but it only deals nonleathal Damage Efrett-the jam is Acidic/Freezing/Electricly charged/Burning/ ECT... AND it Deals Full Damage again on each round until you take full-round-action to remove the Deadly jam I wish to be a better spelcaster. (intent to get a Spellpower +x effect)
taltamir 01-12-05, 08:16 PM	interesting.......if i had a choice , i would rather have choice #2, it is the most beneficial with the least drawbacks to myself. not exactly what i thought it would be.........thank you for your time and effort. :tiphat: You mean the item option? technically, it should cost you extra XP to create an item... twice the XP to create it normally... and its well within the spell's power. Only if the item is TAKEN from someone else (or somewhere if its lost) does it cost you no extra XP. And btw... it can be dispelled only be a higher caster level... and wish is duplicating an item with a caster level of the spell, so in most cases its level 17. So only casters level 18 or higher can dispel the effect, otherwise you are permanently under the effect of the spell allowing you to change shape to whatever you want...
wolf_mage 01-16-05, 03:03 PM	This one is a wish I would actually like to use: I wish for an additional 9th-level spell slot that does not replace any of my current abilities. Remember, before you say "metagaming", that this is the player's wording of the wish. The PC probably said "I wish to expand my spirit energy to be able to cast my most powerful spells once more per day." Or something. Also, if you would accept this wish, what about two spell slots? or three? Basically, how many additional spell slots do I get before my wish is perverted? ... anybody? Come on...
bomaz 01-16-05, 03:43 PM	I wish to know every spell in the multiverse I wish that the weave was destroyed (faerune) I wish never to forgett any spell I wish the gods were stripped of their power I wish I was a lich (cheaper than the ritual) I wish I was a solar I wish that my sword always strike true I wish (god of your choice) was dead I wish none but me could cast wish
bomaz 01-16-05, 03:45 PM	I wish the effect of my last wish was reversed.
glimeral 01-16-05, 04:13 PM	This one is a wish I would actually like to use: I wish for an additional 9th-level spell slot that does not replace any of my current abilities. Remember, before you say "metagaming", that this is the player's wording of the wish. The PC probably said "I wish to expand my spirit energy to be able to cast my most powerful spells once more per day." Or something. Also, if you would accept this wish, what about two spell slots? or three? Basically, how many additional spell slots do I get before my wish is perverted? As a DM, I would tell the player the following: Thats a metagame wish. Word this wish the way your character would say it and hope for the best. Since you said in your post that the characters wish would be something to the effect of "I wish to expand my spirit energy to be able to cast one more of my most powerful spells per day than I can currently cast", I have the choice of answering this wish, or not answering it at all since a wish made in character has to be an IN-CHARACTER wish. I cannot answer your wish for 9th level spells at all since from your wizards perspective, a 9th level spell is just an incredibly complex and advanced spell that few wizards have the skills or ability to cast and that takes up an incredible amount of concentration to prepare. Its not like the fireballs description in the wizards handbook says "a 3rd level spell"... No, it says "a spell that only accomplished wizards should attempt, which draws from the wizards own strength to grant the fireball potency and strength" (I.E, it deals damage based on the level of the wizard). If you would like the wish answered, it must be from the characters perspective or not at all... I will not even begin to answer your metagame wish. Word it EXACTLY how your character would say it, and then I will answer it (but you might not get your 9th level spell slot as a result, since 9th level spell slots are a mechanical answer to what the wisher asked for, which was more power). If I was answering your wish however, I would find the easiest method to raise your int to 28 (such as by granting you a headband of intellect). Many wizards would have an intelligence of at least 22 by 16th level (18 initial, 4 stat increases), and most likely would have a headband of intellect +4 or +6. It woudl be no small order to increase the headband to +6 granting you an intelligence of 28, and granting you a bonus 9th level spell. Anyway, until such times as you word your wish as your character would word it, I refuse to interpret the wish since I have no idea what your character actually said.
glimeral 01-16-05, 04:39 PM	"I wish to expand my spirit energy to be able to cast my most powerful spells once more per day." Ill answer this wish. Wish: Assuming you have an intelligence score of 24 (by any means), the wish grants you a headband of intellect +4. If you already have a headband of intellect, your headband of intellect (+2 or +4) increases to a headband of intellect +6 instead. Alternatively, she gains a rod of absorption with half of its charges expended (25,000gp). Genie: Definately the rod of absorption as above, or grant a cursed rod of absorption with full charges which functions intermittently (randomly determined). Efreeti: I would probably grant them a cursed rod of absorption whose curse is dormant until such times as the rod is used to absorb a hostile spell effect. Once this occurs, the caster cannot voluntarily rid themselves of the rod (the rod always materializing in the spellcasters possession in perfect condition instantaneously even if it is given away, broken, stolen or lost), and the rod absorbs beneficial spell effects instantly, without any effort taken by the owner of the rod. To be nice I will grant them a rod which has 50 charges remaining. Once the charges are used up, the rod still absorbs hostile and beneficial spell effects although they cannot be further used to empower the spellcasters own spells. As with all cursed items, the spellcaster must recieve a remove curse spell effect in order to break the curse on themselves, and rid themself of the cursed item.
taltamir 01-16-05, 08:22 PM	I wish to know every spell in the multiverse Self cast: your mind is overwhelmed with all the spells in the multiverse, as it can only contain so much, you forget all your memories and all your spells, but gain the knowledge of ALL the spells (of all classes) in the PHB and expansion books (that are approved by your DM). You forget how to read and write (if a wizard, you are treated as if you have spell knowledge for all spelsl which you know, which means you can prepare them without a spellbook), you forget how to fight etc, so your BAB and saves and skills are all lowered to 0, you forget all feats which can be aquired through training and all languages which you knew (except for the specific WORDS used in each of the spells you know). You can cast any spell you know if you are of the correct level and class. (yes it makes a sorcerer very powerful). Since your mind is now full to the brim, remembering new things causes you to forget others. You forget a spell at random every month. You may spend a weak to regain one point in a save, skill, or BAB which you had before, but that will cause you to forget some of the spells you learned per each of those. You can spend a month recalling a feat you had, that also causes you to loose more spells. You can, if you aquire the meditation skill, meditate on your past, and recall your past life peice by peice, doing so causes you to loose more spells. When gaining a level, you forget spells for anything that you gain in that level at the same rate that skillpoints and feats and saves and bab regained through recollection causes you to forget spells. Hostile caster: Your mind is overwhelmed with the NAMES (know doesnt mean know how to CAST) and DESCRIPTIONS of all the spells in the multiverse, Everything is else is like the self case version of this, except you cannot cast anything now. Notice it gives the caster ALOT of power, at a SIGNIFICANT price.. and will make an interesting character for the rest of the game... ofcourse, this can be reversed with a wish spell wishing to have not made the first wish. or to simply undo it. I wish that the weave was destroyed (faerune) If you cast it: The weave is expunged from your body making you forever unable to cast spells (unless its reattached). It causes a slight ripple effect causing a sphere of 100 feet around you to have the weave burned out of it. It is treated as a no magic zone. You become a target to all deities of magic. I wish never to forgett any spell - You are geazed so that you HAVE to spend time refreshing your memories about all the spells you know every day to make sure you dont forget them, you need two more hours of "down time" per day. Also, your mind is sheilded from effects which would force you to forget spells. I wish the gods were stripped of their power - Wish fails as gods cannot be affected by mortal magic. not even by a wish. I wish I was a lich (cheaper than the ritual) Friendly caster: Spell siphons (the cost to become a lich in XP - 5000XP) times 2 from you, and you become a lich. Hostile caster: You are transformed into the blood sucking parasite known as a lich. I wish I was a solar - I dont know whats a solar. sorry. I wish that my sword always strike true -If you have enough XP to make that enchantment, your sword is enchanted to cast true stike whenever it is used, an unlimted times per day. Since this will likely cost an arm and a leg, you probably dont. I wish (god of your choice) was dead Friendly caster: The wish attempts, but fails, to kill the god. It does **** him off though. he does NOT automatically know who made the attemp on his/her life. Hostile caster: same as friendly, except he/she DOES know it was you who tried it I wish none but me could cast wish - Spell fails.
bomaz 01-16-05, 11:44 PM	A solar (I think) is the most powerfull celestial in MM. I wish I always had presdidigidation (sry bout the spelling) active on me I wish I foreever could see that which is invisible I wish (enemy of choice or perhaps whole race) died immedetily I wish I was a telepath I wish I had a sorcerous gift I wish I had all the knowleage of a powerfull wizard I wish all dead was retuned to life on the material plane
bomaz 01-16-05, 11:54 PM	I wish all my wounds would close instantly (fast healing) I wish all the magic items in waterdeep were teleported here I wish foreever become a powerfull fighter I wish I had a plane of my own I wish I could teleport wthout error at will I wish I was a god I wish I knew how to become a god
glimeral 01-17-05, 12:06 AM	I wish to know every spell in the multiverse Wish: You instantly know each spell in the PHB and other sources from all class spell lists. You can prepare and cast each of the spells on your class spell list once without needing to read them from a spellbook as if you had the spell mastery feat. Once you have cast each spell once it is erased from your mind and forgotten (unless you have the spell mastery feat in which case the knowledge of the spell is retained). You need to keep an accurate record of each spell that you cast via this method as you cannot cast each spell more than once. Genie: You gain knowledge of each spell as above, except that every time you attempt to cast a spell, a randomly determined spell of the appropriate level is cast instead with the same metamagic effects that you applied to your intended spell, unless you make a sucessful concentration check (DC 20+spells level). This is due to the fact that the enormous wealth of information taxes your mind and occassionally causes you to cast the wrong spell. All targets of the new spell are the same as for the intended spell. If the intended spell was hostile, only a hostile spell is randomly cast. If the intended spell was beneficial, only a beneficial spell is cast etc. Efreeti: You gain the knowledge of every spell in the multiverse but you also suffer the effects of the 8th level arcane spell bestow greater curse which causes all spells cast by yourself to have the opposite effect than what you intended. A fireball spell cast to HARM your opponent instead heals them. A cure light wounds instead acts as an inflict light wounds. Bulls strength lowers the intended targets strength etc. The spell has the opposite effect than you INTEND, therefore if you cast a fireball on a friendly character in order to heal them, it instead harms them as a normal fireball. The escape clause to remove this curse is to forget all spells in the multiverse except those that you have memorized permanently with spell mastery. In all three of the above situations, any attempt to record a spell that you have gained knowledge of by this ability in a spellbook or other source causes the spell to be erased from your mind without being written down (as if you had cast the spell with no effect).
bomaz 01-17-05, 12:32 AM	I wish that my sword always strike true -If you have enough XP to make that enchantment, your sword is enchanted to cast true stike whenever it is used, an unlimted times per day. Since this will likely cost an arm and a leg, you probably dont. If it is a genie casting wish will it be the one paying the xp?
glimeral 01-17-05, 12:36 AM	No you will because it is GRANTING you 3 wishes... It isnt gaining any benefit from it and its a spell-like ability for the genie that costs them no XP.
bomaz 01-17-05, 12:51 AM	Wish: You instantly know each spell in the PHB and other sources from all class spell lists. You can prepare and cast each of the spells on your class spell list once without needing to read them from a spellbook as if you had the spell mastery feat. Once you have cast each spell once it is erased from your mind and forgotten (unless you have the spell mastery feat in which case the knowledge of the spell is retained). You need to keep an accurate record of each spell that you cast via this method as you cannot cast each spell more than once. so now I can write an almost complete spellbook or several including epic spells and why would it eliminate custom made spells?
bomaz 01-17-05, 11:34 AM	I wish never to forgett any spell - You are geazed so that you HAVE to spend time refreshing your memories about all the spells you know every day to make sure you dont forget them, you need two more hours of "down time" per day. Also, your mind is sheilded from effects which would force you to forget spells. Would this lead to a person not forgetting the spells he cast? a wizard capable of casting unlimited number of spells per day since he don't forgett them is rather overpowered dont you think? a bit beyond the power of wish
glimeral 01-17-05, 01:46 PM	so now I can write an almost complete spellbook or several including epic spells and why would it eliminate custom made spells? Read further down, near the bottom of the thread....Trying to write down the spell causes it to be erased from your mind without being recorded. No, what I was saying was the PLAYER needs to keep an accurate record of each spell that they cast as a result of this ability.... Nothing to do with the spellcaster. If he tried to create a scroll, the spell vanishes from his mind. If he tried to record it in a spellbook, same situation. And it doesnt eliminate any spell you know with Spell Mastery, or have recorded in your spell book since you can always re-memorize or recast those spells. Same with the sorcerers known spell list. You keep all spells that you would normally know.... only those EXTRA spells are once off. Its sort of like gaining a near infinate supply of the feat Extra Known Spell (Complete Arcane IIRC) except that once the spell is cast once, the feat is erased for that spell. It doesnt change the spells you actually know in any way. Only these bonus spells are affected.
Vharuck 01-17-05, 02:07 PM	I wish all my wounds would close instantly (fast healing) Wish: You gain Fast Healing 1. Djinni: You are polymorphed into troll. Efreeti: You skin now closes over any wounds you receive, giving you Fast Healing 1, but it also closes over your ears and mouth (maybe eyes if you're a mean DM). I wish all the magic items in waterdeep were teleported here Frankly, this is sort of beyond the power of Wish, since the amount of weight needed to be teleported would be too great unless it were a very epic-level caster. Very epic-level. Wish: Does not work. Djinni: Does not work. Efreeti: You are crushed to death under a horde of magical items and Waterdeep falls to ruin. I wish foreever become a powerfull fighter Wish: Your class levels become fighter levels and you rechoose and add feats as though you were a fighter, though you may opt to keep a feat you have in place of any standard (non-fighter bonus) feat. Djinni: Same as above, but you may only have feats that you qualify for as a fighter (ie. No item creation, spell mastery, etc) Efreeti: Same as above, but your INT drops to a 3. To restore it, you must use a Wish or Miracle to revert back to the wizard you were. I wish I had a plane of my own I like this one, not too powerful. Wish: You receive a scroll of Genesis. Djinni: You receive a scroll of Genesis. Efreeti: You are banished to a demiplane and stripped of all your belongings. I wish I could teleport wthout error at will Wish: You gain ability to Dimension Door 10 ft three times per day. Djinni: Same as above. Efreeti: You gain ability to use a spell-like ability akin to the spell Dimesnion Door at will, however every round for the next 5 rounds following a use of it, there is a 50% chance of you randomly teleporting to anywhere within the spell's range, since you are unstable. I wish I was a god Wish: A group of worshippers follow you (since clerics can cast spells without worshipping a true god), treat this as gaining the Leadership feat without the cohort. Djinni: Same as above Efreeti: You switch bodies/forms with a banished god. I wish I knew how to become a god Wish: A clue as to the whereabouts of information that may be useful is revealed. Djinni: Same as above. Efreeti: The Efreeti tells you exactly what one needs to do to become a god, then places a curse that forbids the wizard from gaining a divine rank. He then laughs at your predicament. May not be up to par with the regulars, but this is my shot at it.
taltamir 01-17-05, 05:00 PM	You guys are making some common mistakes about how wizard casting and spell preparation works. A wizard does NOT memorize a spell when he prepares it. A wizard casts the spell up to a stopping point built into the spell which allows them to finish the spell later, which takes the "casting time" to do. The ability to use that spell to transcribe it to a book comes from its magic. This is why you need SPECIAL inks to scribe a spell, instead of just writing it down. Also, its designed at RECOVERING spellbooks. You can only do it if you had already trascribed that spell into a book once. A wizard CAN memorize a spell, this is a feat that allows the wizard to prepare certain spells without using a spellbook. The wizard automatically has that for read magic (despite it not being listed as the feat which it is for wizard starting feats, it is listed in wizard abilities and description). So to "know" all spells does not mean to have all spells prepared. I should also mention, when someone asks for a wish that excedes the spell's boundries only alittle, they should GET a greater benefit then the spell can normally do, with somewhat of a drawback. HOWEVER, this drawback shouldnt be TOO big as to make the wish worthless. Here are alternate ways I would fulfil two wishes I mentioned before. "I wish to know all spells": - You know all spells of all classes at all levels. All official spells are known to you, and you "know" any custom spell you come up with that the DM approves of if you succeed at a meditation (or untrained wisdom) check after pondering it for an hour. You can only cast spells for which you qualify in class and level. The strain of knowing all those spells causes you to be less focused minded, its harder to remember things, and you seem to people as if lost in your inner thoughts. As a result you have a -3 "brain overloading" penalty to int, wis, and cha. You dont need a spellbook to prepare any more spells. A second wish to forget all spells of classes other then your main one WOULD be advised. Doing so would mitigate the penalty greatly. (probably to a -2 to your main casting attribute. So a -2 instead of a -9 total). "I wish my sword would always strike true" - You, and you alone (I will not say so, but if the character is CAPABLE of contancting his group they are free to come join him), are teleported to the ENTERANCE to a dungeon which contains an artifact sword. That sword is the exact same make as your current one (ie, longsword, broadsword, etc), except it also casts trust strike EVERY time it is used (and maybe a few more nifty stuff... just design a cool artifact sword for your character). It has been put there by forces that could not destroy it but wanted it gone. They left ample gaurdians. You may escape, or you may attempt to aquire it. There is a chance that the forces that put it there would be notified if you manage to aquire the sword (unless you manage to find and disable the alarms, :P... Reward thinking). Making for interesting future plots. The dungeon should be TOUGH, but possible. Not all fights should be possible to win on a straight charge an slaughter, unless the character thinks ahed and manages to get his entire party to come aid him.
glimeral 01-17-05, 05:27 PM	So to "know" all spells does not mean to have all spells prepared. Did I say the spell was prepared? Maybe I could have been a little clearer in the way I was saying it. I said in a later post of mine that you get a temporary Extra Known Spell feat for every spell approved by the DM in the entire game. That doesnt mean the spell is automatically prepared. Only that you have the spell known. However, the catch to the temporary Extra Known spell feat is that once you have cast the spell, the temporary feat disappears. Also, there was no mention anywhere whether it was a spontaneous caster or not who cast wish, therefore thats why I stipulated it the way I did. Go check out the description of Extra Known Spell. It doesnt say the spell is prepared, only that you know the spell (or in the case of the wizard, have an extra freebie spell written into your spellbook without having to spend GP on inks, dyes etc). I also said that if you attempted to write the spell down, the temporary feat disappears instantly (and since the feat dissappears, you no longer "know" the spell and therefore cannot write it down).
taltamir 01-17-05, 05:46 PM	ah ok. So a wizard would still have to PREPARE those spells. But he casts any it is forgotten. A sorc can just cast them, and they are forgotten then. I try to avoid giving such temporary bonuses though. Someone used a wish, a mighty spell. To give them something so temporary seems like gimping them.
glimeral 01-17-05, 05:47 PM	Sword and Fist pg 76 details a bow of true arrows which has a market price of 4,000gp and casts true strike on the bow as a spell-trigger action for a market price of 4000gp. Since this item costs 4,000gp and a +1 weapon costs 2,000gp, adding a spell-trigger truestrike (with unlimited charges) shouldnt be that costly to do with 3.5 rules. Looking up the item creation rules (pg 285 of DMG) a spell-trigger item is spell level x caster level x 750gp or 1 x 5 x 750gp =3,750gp. For simplicities sake lets think of this as a slotless item (since its part of the weapon itself) and therefore multiplying the cost by 2 it costs 7,500gp. Since a 25K item is well within the power of wish to grant, granting a spell-trigger "true Strike" effect to a weapon for 7,500gp is perfectly ok. Being nice, we look at a continuous effect true strike on the weapon we are looking at a cost of 10,000gp (20,000gp if you think of the effect as being slotless) as continuous effects are spell level x caster level x 2000 or 1 x 5 x 2000 =10,000gp (x2 if slotless =20,000gp). Therefore, we have the following Wish: Your primary weapon gains a continuous true strike effect placed upon it (market price 10,000gp or 20,000gp). Genie: Your primary weapon gains a permanent spell-trigger true strike effect placed upon it with unlimited charges (market price 3,750gp or 7,500gp). Efreeti: Your primary weapon gains a single use/use activated true strike effect placed upon it (one charge) (market price 250gp or 500gp). The efreeti is granting a useful effect except that it only works once, and would have been easily replicated by drinking a potion of true strike... A wasted wish in other words.
glimeral 01-17-05, 05:50 PM	ah ok. So a wizard would still have to PREPARE those spells. But he casts any it is forgotten. A sorc can just cast them, and they are forgotten then. I try to avoid giving such temporary bonuses though. Someone used a wish, a mighty spell. To give them something so temporary seems like gimping them. Except when you factor that they have about a good 1,000 spells kicking around in their head. Preparing/casting any one of them leaves a good 999 spells remaining... even if only 1/4 of them are spells that they can actually cast. Point still stands, few wizards are going to even get their hands on 250+ spells in their career even from temporary sources such as scrolls, so its not a gimped effect at all... Just limits them to only using their spells wisely.
taltamir 01-17-05, 06:15 PM	Magic enchantements are split into two categories. Weilded, and Equiped. Weilded items seem to be split into two sub-categories, Weapons&Armour enchantments being the first, and other weilded (which seems to all be "cast a spell on demand") being the second. The Second is the one to which a discount is given for stacking enchantments, for the first you just add them up. There is no mention of ANY item in the core books that ever mixes between the different kinds of enchantments, the enchantments are ALWAYS seperate. The items that mix multiple enchantments are ALWAYS mixing enchantments of the same kind (either weapon&armour, other weilded, or equiped, never a combination of those). Weilded items are all weapons, and things such as staffs and wands and rods and scrolls etc. The weilded items dont take a slot, but you have varying methods of activation (reading a scroll, holding and pointing a wand, striking with a weapon - and thus holding it in the appropriate number of hands). Slotless is a 2x price modification that can be done to EQUIPED items. equiped items normally take a BODY SLOT, the body slots are listed in the DMG. You can modify those, if the DM allows it, to take a "wrong affinity" slot for 1.5x the price, or to take no slot for 2x, thats done PER ENCHANTMENT. so an item with multiple enchantments would have those apply on an individual enchantment basis. Thus, there is never an extra charge for it being "slotless" or even need to MENTION it being slotless on a weapon item. Unless it contains an enchantment which is of the equipped type. (for example. a sword of +2 to strength would have the slotless 2x modifier applied to its strength enchantment, its regular enchantments would not need it as they are of the weilded kind). The DMG doesnt really say you can create items that have both equiped and weilded enchantments (in fact, it doesnt spell out those categories, instead leaving it up to you to figure it out that they are used), that can be noticed by the fact that mixing multiple weilded enchantments of CERTAIN KINDS gives a discount (such as making a wand of both fireball and flame hands), while others just add up (adding vorperal to to an enchanted sword), and that equiped ones require you to pay MORE per every enchantment added to an item (such as making a ring of both acid AND fire resistance). Anyways, that bow is broken in so many ways its not even funny.. unless it only does it a few times per day, which I suspect it does. Otherwise, for a mere 4000 GP anyone would get it. Even untrained you get a +16 on every attack on it. if you are trained in bows it gives you +20 on every attack. Practically impossible to miss AND its a ranged weapon.
glimeral 01-17-05, 07:16 PM	Anyways, that bow is broken in so many ways its not even funny.. unless it only does it a few times per day, which I suspect it does. Otherwise, for a mere 4000 GP anyone would get it. Even untrained you get a +16 on every attack on it. if you are trained in bows it gives you +20 on every attack. Practically impossible to miss AND its a ranged weapon. Read its description... Its a Spell-trigger item. Meaning that to get the true strike you need to take a standard action to activate true strike, then on your NEXT round of attacks you get true strike on the first attack. Not broken at all since you basically spend a full round charging the effect. Being a spell-trigger item, only spellcasters can use it anyway. The bow is made for elven fighter/wizards IIRC. And there is a precedent for weapons and armor gaining enchantments... such as in the Underdark sourcebook (FR) where there is a blindsighted enchantment for weapons which grants you blindsight 30 ft for 30,000gp market price and +0 market price modifier (since its only an added effect). Since blindsight is a 3rd level spell it fits the math perfectly.... Continuous effect spell level x caster level x 2000gp.... or 3 x 5 x 2000gp =30,000gp. A similar effect for true strike only costs 10,000gp (although I think thats a little broken) since it is 1 x 5 x 2000gp.
Nephlite 01-17-05, 08:42 PM	I wish for my alignment not to change when I use my Lycantrophy shapechange willingly because normally my alignment would change if I become one. Basically it allows a Lawful good guy to become a Werewolf without turning evil (thus he stays lawful good) Obviously a character would know that voluntary changing affects his alignment and so its not metagaming. He could have done a Knowledge check in past to know for one thing.
taltamir 01-17-05, 08:58 PM	Ah... so you have to use a turn to turn it on.. thats fine then. That makes all the difference in the world... and that precidence you mentioned, thats definatly not core. I wish for my alignment not to change when I use my Lycantrophy shapechange willingly because normally my alignment would change if I become one. - Done and Done. Your lycanthropy changes to fit this new description. Should a neutral caster cast it, it would probably make it only apply to YOU and not to anyone you infect. And if hostile it would just make it so your alignment doesnt change when you shift, it will change when you shift back to your human form (ie, delaying the shift with a contingency of sorts). And yea, thats as far from metagaming as you get ;p. For some reason the books and many people seem to imply its metagaming to call the things in the books by the same name that is written there. That characters should call it differently. No matter what the characters call it, they can get weapons that have anxiomic and chaotic enchatments on them... as such they KNOW there is alignment in their world. Just assume autotranslation from what YOU say to the language that the character is speaking.
bomaz 01-17-05, 10:30 PM	I wish this efreet would willingly serve me forever I wish I had (dead arcmages) spellbook I wish I had all the wepons in this building before my feet I wish a ton of gold would appear on top of (pick an enemy nearby) I wish a had the phylactery of (pick a lich) I wish nobody would ever die I wish (pick a dead person of choice perhaps a dead archmage) would return to life I wish I know everything (name person) know I wish (pick epic person) was my loyal servant I wish I had (pick an artefact) in my hand I wish I had 10 scrolls of wish here (they dont cost xp to cast do they?) I wish I had a scroll scribed with every existing spell I wish (pick a epic enemy) was dead
glimeral 01-17-05, 10:58 PM	I wish for my alignment not to change when I use my Lycantrophy shapechange willingly because normally my alignment would change if I become one. Basically it allows a Lawful good guy to become a Werewolf without turning evil (thus he stays lawful good) Obviously a character would know that voluntary changing affects his alignment and so its not metagaming. He could have done a Knowledge check in past to know for one thing. Yes it most definately is metagaming unless they have researched it. But for sake of argument fine ill go with this one. Wish: Every attempt to voluntarily change shape automatically fails. Alternatively you suffer the effects of a psychic reformation 4th level power that rearranges your feats so that you qualify for the Selune Lycanthrope PrC (from FR, forget its proper name), changes your diety to Selune, and changes your last character level so that it makes you a 1st level Selune lycanthrope (can someone please give me the proper name for this PrC so I can edit this post). I would also allow you to gain Selune as a diety without changing your alignment as a special circumstance. There, you can be a good lycanthrope and not suffer alignment changes when voluntarily shifting as per the PrC abilities. (I think the PrC is in Faiths & Pantheons but dont quote me). Genie: By making this wish you have committed what constitutes an act of evil intent although, in this case it is taken as an act of unintentional evil and therefore an atonement spell can restore your abilities. In either case, you are immune to alignment shifts as a result of changing shape willingly. Efreeti: By makin this wish you have commited an evil act, and in this case it is interpretted as a deliberately evil act, irrevocably costing you your exalted abilities and/or class abilities that require virtuous intent. In either case, even if your alignment doesnt change as a result of your WISH, you are immune to alignment shifts as a result of willingly changing into your lycanthropic forms. Why do I interpret your wish as a wish for evil intent? Because someone with good intentions would never make such a wish, therefore, by making such a wish, your thoughts are impure, and it is the very act of making the wish constitutes an evil act... even if your wish makes you immune to further alignment changes when changing shape.
taltamir 01-18-05, 12:14 AM	dude, the idea isnt to punish the player for making a wish. He was infected by lycantropy, probably not by his choice. Now he cant even change without automatically becoming an evil beast, he is invoking the most powerful spells the world that can reshape reality to prevent that. At worst he should be completely cured from lycantropy, at best it should change lycantropy into an advantage by not forcing an alignment change (he can still not be in control of his actions, but good... instead of hunting people down and tearing them to peices he would play with the children like an overgrown doggie). I wish this efreet would willingly serve me forever - Wish duplicates a geas on "this efreet" with the exact wording "serve me forever"... gease unfolds as if you cast a geas yourself (ie, it might not last forever, I dont remember the exact description of geas) I wish I had (dead arcmages) spellbook - The book is teleported to you. If noone had it at the moment, noone notices and good for you, if someone else owned it, they are likely to be upset with you. (but not necessarily, they might be understanding) I wish I had all the wepons in this building before my feet Friendly caster: Summon monster to summon a high level rouge to steal them all for you. Or dominate an appropriate person inside, or use telekinesis or something. Hostile caster: Makes the inhabitants of that building attack you, bringing the weapons towards you. I wish a ton of gold would appear on top of (pick an enemy nearby) - A block of gold worth 10,000 GP with the word "ton" carved into it by some strange language in which a ton means that much appears above that person's head. Roll attack, if you hit he takes 1d6 per caster level with max 20d6 damage. I wish a had the phylactery of (pick a lich). - If the lich did NOT have any magical protections in place, it teleports to your hand. Otherwise... well it depends on what protections that lich had in place. I wish nobody would ever die - A person name "nobody would ever" is affected by a finger of death. - No wait, that was a gramatical error on my part. A person named "nobody" is transformed into a vampire, since vampires are already dead they cannot die, only be destroyed, thus nobody can now never die. I wish (pick a dead person of choice perhaps a dead archmage) would return to life - If his corpse is intact he is returned to life, otherwise his body is reformed and a new casting is needed to return him to life, this is standard usage of wish per the PHB description. I wish I know everything (name person) know. - You get a telepathic bond with that person and he is geased to answer any question you ask through it truethfully. He is in no way prevented from seeking a way to break that bond or harming you I wish (pick epic person) was my loyal servant - Casts domeinate or geas on him... again, those might not work out perfectly if they have defenses in place against such spells. I wish I had (pick an artefact) in my hand - You are teleported to said artifact, not vice versa, with your hand grasping it. I wish I had 10 scrolls of wish here (they dont cost xp to cast do they?) - If you cast it, they DO cost XP... twice the XP it takes to craft them. Regardless, since you cannot pay it up, it will have to come from somewhere else. 10 scrolls appear before you. The seem to be letters written with what people wish for. (think of the west wall in jerusalem) I wish I had a scroll scribed with every existing spell - A scroll cannot contain so many spells, as such, a scroll containing... lets say 4 spells appears before you. Those might be spells you didnt know before though. I wish (pick a epic enemy) was dead. - Finger of death is cast on the enemy, it might survive.
taltamir 01-18-05, 12:41 AM	I wish to be a solar. - Same as with wishing to be a lich. You ungo the transformation, the spell siphons 2x the XP needed to do the transformation normally. Because you used a wish costing 5000 additional XP and had to pay twice the XP of the ceramony you didnt have to use material components, do pesky quests, or waste time. If its really expansive, it might count the 5000XP from the wish towards the 2x cost of ceremony cost. I wish I always had presdidigidation (sry bout the spelling) active on me - Which one? Prestidigitation is a common name for many common simple training spells. Which means btw, that it shouldnt be just one spell, isntead you should prepare "Prestigiditation (clean)" or "Prestidigitation (change color)" or whatever. Regardless, the wish is just used to craft an always on magic item with prestigiditation. Costs 5000XP for the wish + 2x the XP cost of the item. GP and time and material costs of crafting said item are waived. This is a standard usage of the spell. I wish I foreever could see that which is invisible -Goggles of true sight. Standard crafting magic items with a wish rules apply. I wish (enemy of choice or perhaps whole race) died immedetily -Single enemy = finger of death is cast on him/her/it... it might not work -Race... partial completion.. either some die... or something is geased to kill them. It will not be immidiatly though I wish I was a telepath - Wish alters your choice of study in the past (dont worry, paradoxes dont exist in DnD ... no really XP) You replace either all your levels, or your most recent one, with the telepath psionic class. I wish I had a sorcerous gift. - Not sure what that is.... mmmm... but it could be interpreted nicely... A sexy young sourceress NPC gives you a gift which she made with her powers in the next village, just dont go breaking her heart later on. Especially amusing if the caster was a hetrosexual female. I wish I had all the knowleage of a powerfull wizard -You get a telepathic bond with that person and he is geased to answer any question you ask through it truethfully. He is in no way prevented from seeking a way to break that bond or harming you I wish all dead was retuned to life on the material plane -Spell fails I wish all my wounds would close instantly (fast healing) -Wish duplicates the highest level cure spell it can. All your CURRENT wounds close instantly. - If rephrased as "I wish all wounds I would get in the future would close instantly" you get a magic item that gives you a certain fast healing score, based on the standard magic item creation with wish rules. I wish all the magic items in waterdeep were teleported here -A few magic items from a place called waterdeep are teleported to you. (hi, you have ANY idea how often people reuse names?) I wish foreever become a powerfull fighter -You are geased to forever adventure. killing stuff to gain XP and thus becomming more powerful. I wish I had a plane of my own -Wish duplicates the effect of the spell that creates a small demiplane. Based on the level of that spell the wish might not do so perfectly. (ie, if its actually beyond the scope of wish, it will make the plane smaller then it should be) I wish I could teleport wthout error at will -Creates an item of the spell teleport without error using the standard item creation with wish rules. This item is activated by your will power, you need to roll a DC15 will save to use it and may do so "at will". I wish I was a god - You learn of how to become a god. that should be a long arderous quest, I wish I knew how to become a god - You learn of how to become a god.. that should be a long arderous quest... PS. If I missed anyone's wishes, please repost those I skipped. It wasnt intentional. As far as I know I answered them all so far.
Koretsu 01-18-05, 01:29 AM	"I wish for this wish to not be granted."
Vharuck 01-18-05, 01:32 AM	"I wish for this wish to not be granted." Sit back and crack open a cold one, cuz you're now stuck with the Genie in a time loop.
glimeral 01-18-05, 01:40 AM	I Wish I had 10 scrolls of wish here (they dont cost xp to cast do they?) Benevolent: Spell teleports 10 scrolls of limited wish (37,750gp mp) to your current location, the first 8 without mishap, the last 2 in the possession of a very surprised wizard who is initially indifferent towards you (although surprised). The 8 other scrolls just appear in your general location and begin blowing around. Genie: You are drained of 2x the XP required to make 10 scrolls of limited wish and the scrolls materialize before you. Efreet: 10 scrolls of wish (9th level) dissapear from the Grand Sultans treasure horde in the city of brass and appear before you. The grand sultan is instantly alerted to the theft due to magical protections placed on his treasure, however the grand sultan does not neccessarily know that you have his wish scrolls, however, the efreet granting the wishes is likely to tell him at first opportunity, or otherwise the grand sultan is likely to cast a powerful divination (if not wish itself) to find where his missing scrolls are. From your perspective, 10 scrolls of wish materializes before you and that the efreet has a knowing smirk on his face if you succeed at a spot check (DC 15).
taltamir 01-18-05, 01:48 AM	"I wish for this wish to not be granted." - Nothing happens I dont know if it should teleport the wizard / sultan / god himself to you with the item... I think its actually doing MORE, instead it should teleport said item from the HAND of that being. And that they should have the means to find out where it went and teleport there (being as such items should only belong to really powerful creatures). So rather, a wizard teleports in, in two turns, after he scrys for his scroll and casts his greater teleport to get to you and ask for his scroll back... he muses under his breath "damn fools wishing for more wishes, every f-ing time"
glimeral 01-18-05, 03:50 AM	IIRC, the sultan of the efreet is at least a 20th level wizard, and I think he is also a 20th level sorcerer or cleric. Round 1: Hero casts wish and steals his scrolls. Sultan instantly alerted to the theft from his horde. Round 2: Sultan casts wish "I wish that all beings directly or indirectly involved in the recent theft from my treasure vault materialize before me in shackles". The heroes and the efreet that granted the wish materializes before the sultan, 2 of his 6 pashas and 8 advanced efreet guards in the sultans throne room bound in shackles. The sultan immediately glares at the heroes and the efreet accomplice and asks the efreet what business did it have in the theft of his treasure.... The efreet naturally replies "I present you this gift in slaves my liege. This fool (indicates wisher) wished for 10 scrolls of wish so naturally I granted his wish by taking them from your horde, knowing full well that you would detect the theft my liege and bring swift wrath down on our oppressors."
taltamir 01-18-05, 04:31 AM	IIRC, the sultan of the efreet is at least a 20th level wizard, and I think he is also a 20th level sorcerer or cleric. Round 1: Hero casts wish and steals his scrolls. Sultan instantly alerted to the theft from his horde. Round 2: Sultan casts wish "I wish that all beings directly or indirectly involved in the recent theft from my treasure vault materialize before me in shackles". The heroes and the efreet that granted the wish materializes before the sultan, 2 of his 6 pashas and 8 advanced efreet guards in the sultans throne room bound in shackles. The sultan immediately glares at the heroes and the efreet accomplice and asks the efreet what business did it have in the theft of his treasure.... The efreet naturally replies "I present you this gift in slaves my liege. This fool (indicates wisher) wished for 10 scrolls of wish so naturally I granted his wish by taking them from your horde, knowing full well that you would detect the theft my liege and bring swift wrath down on our oppressors." yea, that makes way more sense then teleporting said sultan to the heroes... and is kinda cool... well, its cool if you are not the new slave of the sultan ;p. Ofcourse, you can always escape later right? :)
glimeral 01-18-05, 04:38 AM	yea, that makes way more sense then teleporting said sultan to the heroes... and is kinda cool... well, its cool if you are not the new slave of the sultan ;p. Ofcourse, you can always escape later right? :) It would be challenging but yeah.. they can escape if they want to. Remembering that the sultan can always make the city of brass exposed to the elemental plane of fires traits at any time he wishes. Would be a cool campaign trying to escape from the elemental plane of fire.
Daedalus2701 01-18-05, 06:44 AM	What about this? I wish only, at all times I am alive, to always see as if under the effects of a true seeing spell.
taltamir 01-18-05, 07:02 AM	What about this? I wish only, at all times I am alive, to always see as if under the effects of a true seeing spell. Thats really asking to be killed in 5 minutes ;p... Anyways. One of your eyes is gouged out to be replaced by the magical artificial eye of a long dead wizard. That eye cannot be removed without killing you and confers true seeing. In fact, it also confers blind sense for 60 feet, and is a minor artifact. All the extra info has the unfortunate effect of being abit confusing, so you get -2 to wisdom. Um.... ill give it some more cool qualties too, a backstore, and lots of chance to roleplay. Tweak to make it a powerful nifty wish, but at a cost. It IS more powerful then a regular cast of the spell. But regular catings have no drawbacks.
Daedalus2701 01-18-05, 08:04 AM	What about the "only" in the wish? I never wished to lose an eye, or to gain an item to replace it, merely the effect of the spell. How is a prosthetic eye consistent with the specific wording of the spell?
glimeral 01-18-05, 06:52 PM	What about the "only" in the wish? I never wished to lose an eye, or to gain an item to replace it, merely the effect of the spell. How is a prosthetic eye consistent with the specific wording of the spell? You didnt wish NOT to loose your eye or have it replaced by a prosthetic though did you. You only asked for the trueseeing ability at all times while you are alive... Wish granted. If you wish for more powerful effects than wish reliably grants, there is always a drawback/perversion of the wish. Wishing for permanent trueseeing is a very potent wish, and therefore, there has to be some sort of perversion. Since your wording did not at all mention retaining your natural eyes, the interpretation is valid.... especially since you implied that you ALWAYS have the effect on your person, therefore, making the item a part of your person is a valid way of interpreting it.
taltamir 01-18-05, 08:10 PM	Actually I missed that only. So basically, you wished that there will be no other effect aside from you getting true sight... Partial fulfilment, you get true sight for a certain time, maybe a few monthes or years, I will have to check to see the exact spell level. And then it dissipates. Alternatively, you get true sight with a permanency spell. Costs extra XP and is dispellable.
glimeral 01-18-05, 09:03 PM	Actually the word only in that wish is very ambiguous. It says that the only effect you are wishing for is the above... It doesnt state that no other effect can occur. There is no way to word a wish so that a negative side effect cannot occur as wishes truncate very quickly.
Koretsu 01-19-05, 01:08 AM	"I wish for this wish to not be granted." - Nothing happens But that grants the wish...
taltamir 01-19-05, 03:25 AM	Here are the options. 1. The wish is granted, it overturns the effect of casting the wish, and reality reshapes to the new occurance. You still loose the XP cause no matter what you cannot regain it through spells. 2. The wish failed. Either way the result APPEARS to the same, it appears as if nothing happens. At most you could say that causing a time paradox (something that doesnt exist in DnD, luckily) is beyond the ken of mortal magic, causing the wish to fail ;p.
Koretsu 01-21-05, 12:03 AM	At most you could saying causing a time paradox (something that doesnt exist in DnD luckily) is beyond the ken of mortal magic, causing the wish to fail ;p. Oh, I don't know. I've created one when I accidentally blew my present self up with a fireball from my future self while using the time duplicate epic spell.... The game ended because we couldn't figure out what happened...
glimeral 01-21-05, 12:31 AM	Oh, I don't know. I've created one when I accidentally blew my present self up with a fireball from my future self while using the time duplicate epic spell.... The game ended because we couldn't figure out what happened... Simple, the future self that came back to the present was from an alternate reality where you didnt blow yourself up. Game continues, that temporal double returns to its own time unless it finds a way to permanently stay in the present and replace your character.
taltamir 01-21-05, 02:04 AM	Actually by the very description of the spell the temporal duplicate is an alternate of a POSSIBLE future. Whatever happens when they are summoned ALWAYS changes the present, their their possible future never comes to pass (except, if you just "waste" a turn moving to the exact location in which they appeared and dont waste a single spell :P). However it matters not, they just go away afterwards and you are stuck with the results. This is by the spell description.
glimeral 01-23-05, 02:19 AM	For those that were interested, I found the stats for the current Efreeti Sultan in the planar handbook pg 139... I told you I had seen his statistics somewhere. Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazen, Grand Sultan of All the Efreet (LE male Efreeti, sorcerer 20). Since efreet have a +8 level adjustment (as indicated in Savage Species with the Efreet 18th level monster class) and the grand sultan has 30 HD that makes him an ECL 38 character (CR 28). Definately epic at any rate, although he obviously doesnt have epic level spells or spell slots above 9 since he is only a 20th level spellcaster..... Only a 20th level spellcaster (on top of an ECL 18 creature is laughable as to its irony).
Urban Hunter 01-23-05, 11:29 AM	First off, I have not read this entire post so I will not know if a wish has already been asked. I wish that I had every arcane spell each on a seperate scroll and I had all the materials to write them in to spell books. I think this thread is a very interesting idea and a very creative one to. If only we had more threads like this one and less with the title: "how can I have the power to make others die with a look and have no LA..." :thinks:
wolf_mage 01-23-05, 08:23 PM	First off, I have not read this entire post so I will not know if a wish has already been asked. I wish that I had every arcane spell each on a seperate scroll and I had all the materials to write them in to spell books. I think this thread is a very interesting idea and a very creative one to. If only we had more threads like this one and less with the title: "how can I have the power to make others die with a look and have no LA..." :thinks: Okay. You receive the maximum allowable amount of supplies, as per the spell's description. Half of the 5000 XP paid for the Wish spell goes to nonmagic items (supplies) and the other half to magic items (scrolls). Thus, you would receive 12,500 gp worth of supplies to write spells into spellbooks, equal to 125 pages of spells, and 2500 XP worth of scrolls, divided by 2, as per the spell's description, or 1250 worth of scrolls. Example: - 2 9th-level spells (153 XP each) - 2 8th-level spells ... and so on ... - makes 1051 XP. Then, another 199 XP of other spells.
taltamir 01-24-05, 02:53 AM	well actually its twice the XP cost in ADDITION to the 5000. So if you want a scroll that costs 100 XP to scribe, wishing for it costs a grand total of 5200XP. The materials to scribe part is easy though, just give gold value of materials. I am tired so I will not think of an alternate way to make it come true ATM.
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-24-05, 11:14 AM	I wish to know every spell in the multiverse Wish spell/Genie: You learn the name of every spell in the multiverse. Efreet: You get teleported onto a sphere of annihilation, throwing your body out of space time and effectively into a null multiverse. Since no spells exist there, and your knowledge is zero (since you have no more brain), your wish is granted. I wish that the weave was destroyed (faerune) I wish the gods were stripped of their power I wish (god of your choice) was dead I wish none but me could cast wish You're put into temporal stasis and released when the desired event takes place. I wish never to forgett any spell Wish/Genie spell: You're put in temporal stasis indefinitely. Efreet: Your memory of your spells is perfect, however you also lose the ability to cast spells. I wish I was a lich (cheaper than the ritual) Wish spell: You get docked the necessary XP for the gold/XP cost of the ritual. Genie: You get a tome/scroll containing the knowledge to cast the ritual. Efreet: You get transformed into a lich, however you don't get a phylactery and without it your life essence has nowhere to go, so you instantly die. I wish I was a solar Wish/Genie: You're temporarily polymorphed into a solar, as polymorph any object. Efreet: You become dependent on the sun to power your body. Losing contact with sunlight causes you to sicken and die. I wish only, at all times I am alive, to always see as if under the effects of a true seeing spell. Well, this is pretty easy, since you just separate the I wish only to I wish: only. Which is fine since it's verbally stated. So, only at all times you're alive, you always see as if under the effects of a true seeing spell. So the efreet just wishes you dead and makes your corpse immune to the true seeing spell. Thus you can never have a true seeing spell cast upon you when you're dead. Since you're not actually alive, the efreet doesn't have to worry about doing anything with true seeing.
taltamir 01-24-05, 01:12 PM	way to go Archtyrant Terevoth's, you just found a way to completely destroy the character with every single wish he made. Here is a better idea, DONT DO THAT. The whole problem with wish is that someone makes a wish, and then he has to draw up a new character. The idea of this thread is to find ways to fulfil wishes without horribly destroying the caster.
glimeral 01-24-05, 10:46 PM	Efreet: You get transformed into a lich, however you don't get a phylactery and without it your life essence has nowhere to go, so you instantly die. This is a flawed answer. You gain the lich template and gain the undead type, but you must make a concentration check (DC 20). For every point by which you exceed the DC you have a 5% chance of gaining each special ability (rolled separately). In addition, a lich who has no phylactery or has their phylactery destroyed is not killed instantly.. Rather, their soul returns to its physical body and if they are killed while their soul is in their body, they are destroyed as if they were any other undead creature whose soul is NORMALLY bound to its body (such as a ghoul for example). Therefore, if the efreeti was to cast this wish, he would likely transform him into a lich who doesnt have a phylactery... meaning that they had better create a phylactery soon as they are vulnerable to distruction while their soul is in their physical body, as they are unable to reform a new body in 1d10 days without a phylactery.
taltamir 01-24-05, 11:01 PM	Actually if a hostile create was to cast it they would likely use Baleful polymorph: Vermin: Lich. And by lich i mean the blood sucking maggot like thing thats found in lakes, not the undead creature.
glimeral 01-24-05, 11:38 PM	Actually if a hostile create was to cast it they would likely use Baleful polymorph: Vermin: Lich. And by lich i mean the blood sucking maggot like thing thats found in lakes, not the undead creature. Thats a LEECH (or is that Leach, i forget)... Completely different and it doesnt even sound the same or have the same spelling. Little hard to convince someone of that one. Depending on your pronounciation, lich sounds like Lick or it sounds like lich. Leech sounds like leech. No comparison. Now if you pronounce Lich as Lick, well they could always transform you into slobber on the tounge of a dog as it "licks" someone. There, you are a lick lololol.
prozacman 01-25-05, 02:17 AM	i wish for all the knowledge of the multiverse.
Reye 01-25-05, 01:23 PM	I wish I could find my one true love. I wish this war would end. I wish for you to be free of what binds you (to an Efreet/Djinn only) I wish for a ten inch pianist.
taltamir 01-25-05, 01:44 PM	i wish for all the knowledge of the multiverse. - It doesnt fit inside your mind, in a flash you aquire all the knowledge of the universe, it is so overwhelming its immidiatly repressed (whats not erased), furthermore, with the wish gone you are no longer to comprehend much of it... so basically, one flash of knowledge and you are left with nothing... Perhaps something unique could come of it though, think plot wise. Anyone here seen the full metal alchemist? I wish I could find my one true love. - You are teleported to your one true love. A wonderful way to introduce your real life spouse / Significant other into the game, otherwise, wait while the DM makes an NPC. I wish this war would end. - The wish does something that brings the rulers of said nations in war to begin peace talks. It actually reveals something that was there but noone was aware of. Common examples are, having the son of one and the doughter of the other who just happen to be compatible find each other. Or finding evidence that they are related, or one of many many other possible solutions that were there but they just never knew. I wish for you to be free of what binds you (to an Efreet/Djinn only) - Said create is freed of the summoning spell that you cast to bind them. If bound in an item, they are freed of said item, or maybe the item is destroyed. I wish for a ten inch pianist. - The spell summons a ten inch high master pianist from another dimention, he proceeds to demand you send him home. - I will go out on a limb here and assume you meant the male reproductive organ and not pianist. in which case you get an enhancement bonus to your girth. perfectly valid way of wasting your XP.
sabrewolf 01-25-05, 08:28 PM	For this little wish iīd first speak a scene where itīd be used at. Better then simply stating it out of the blue, iīd use it on a setting so to foccus a bit how itīd turn out in the end.. either as i first thought, in a twisted but good way or a fully perverted ending.. Also, Iīll say Iīm not considering muchthe "allways" on a dragonīs alignment so to keep this wish from beng an act of evil andchanging the wishmakerīs algnment.. either that or the character luckly met only the exceptions to the rule.. With that in mind and considering the character a spellcaster of some kind at a good/high level and the equivalent gear/wealth for such level.. And that he aquired five scales, one of each chromatic dragon, given willingly in good faith either by use of diplomacy or by the character being an ally to said dragon(s) and kept from deteriorating either by use of magical treatment, gentle repose, or other means.. So the character, in the peace of his sanctum, makes said wish somehow: "I WISH to become a dragon, by changing my own nature, what i am, instead of by a permanent spel or other lesser revertable effect (1), a dragon who embody the elements and energy contained in these five scales (2), with my energy fueling itīs inherent natural spellcasting even at the cost of my actual spellcasting strengh (3).. and..(4)" And the side notes.. (1) - Thatīs for rulling out the polimorph and similars.. iīm not recalling the rule abou the rite for changing and my savage species book is with a friend.. but it should tend that way.. eh.. (2) - The exact stats should be little matter (Minor tweaking on another dragon and some ECL/CR increase)... Iīll keep a thread for this new dragon one the "monsters" board, so not to change the subject on this thread. (3) - Thatīs for the dragonīs natural spellcasting and Itīs intended for any spellcasting class. I recall reading on draconomicum about PrC that replace the normal arcane CL with divine CLs, so to turn the newdragonīs scorīs CL whatever CL the wishmaker had (wiz/sor becoming sor; clr and druid remaining the same; and pal and rng being special cases depending on the godsī will) (4) - And... i could add some details to the wish so to improve it, but i think these are better commented apart from the main wish..: - One ould be the inclusion of the familiar in it, using the special ability from having a familiar. ( "I Wish - and may such echo in my familiar trough the bond we both share - I WISH...." ) I think itīs valid and could lead to both results, the good one being twins or for an evil twisting of it, a two headed dragon with personality problems and constant struggle for who controls the body.. at least thatīs what i can think of.. - Other mod on the wish would be at itīs end. I dont recall the shapechanging rite on the savage species but if it goes that way and a check is needed to measure how well thechange goes, he could use itens to increase his chances of success or use some variant from the BoVD sacrifice rule, like offering his gear and resources to the gods or something (if such rule exists) - something like, ( "..and for that i offer all i have, gold and gear, tome and tower, in name of the great dragon gods as an offering to them.." ) Well, thank you for any reply.. just hope youīre not wishing this post was shorter.. :D
taltamir 01-25-05, 11:24 PM	I'll make you a dragon a some levels lower then you were. Seriously, being a dragon isnt all that overpowering, its the level that really matters. And it could lead to awesome roleplaying circumstances. I dont understand what would you want to actually happen to the familiar? that it will become a dragon too? Cant you be a dragon with a rat familiar?
Beerkeg 01-26-05, 12:50 AM	This is a nice, make your head explode request my wizzy would make, should he be unfortunate enought to find a wish. "I wish I understood the secret rules of the universe."
sabrewolf 01-26-05, 02:58 AM	I'll make you a dragon a some levels lower then you were. Seriously, being a dragon isnt all that overpowering, its the level that really matters. And it could lead to awesome roleplaying circumstances. Indeed... but that wish also kind of creates a new dragon kind with a somewhat hightened power level... Just wished most DMs would allow players to choose dragons more often.. and iīm thinking about the roleplaying, even if that wish seems a little power hungry.. (Random dragon: "A 'little', says you??" :evillaugh "Oh, really??") I dont understand what would you want to actually happen to the familiar? that it will become a dragon too? Cant you be a dragon with a rat familiar? For that specific wish, yep.. would lead to a nice plot: two dragons, like twins, but with a stronger link between them.. that have to do with some wonderings about familiars. But thatīs for another thread.. Mygoal on that bit is also if a wish can affect the familiar along with the master, like other spells, trough the bond they share..
glimeral 01-26-05, 04:03 AM	Indeed... but that wish also kind of creates a new dragon kind with a somewhat hightened power level... Just wished most DMs would allow players to choose dragons more often.. and iīm thinking about the roleplaying, even if that wish seems a little power hungry.. (Random dragon: "A 'little', says you??" :evillaugh "Oh, really??") Not neccessarily.. You could always make a dragon monster class that takes them right to adult level (since they are likely to be adults themselves), and then after that you follow the rules for Dragon PCs including the occassional level where they gain no powers but their ECL goes up by 1 (the levels just before a new dragon HD is gained that increases their size in most cases). The character gains no extra power than what they already have.... They are considered a 0 level character in the appropriate dragon class and have to advance to adult before they can continue advancing in any other class.
Moon-Lancer 01-26-05, 09:05 AM	How about this. I wish to evade like a rogue, but not have any other added effect grainted by this wish spell other then the ablity to evade like a rogue. or I wish to evade like a rogue but keep all my current abilities and form in addition to keeping the ability to pursue them. Hopefully this would keep anything from changing me into a rogue. That is why i worded it as such. also any suggestions on asking for evasion i would be ever so graitfull. also, could i ask not to age in the same wish.
glimeral 01-26-05, 01:38 PM	How about this. I wish to evade like a rogue, but not have any other added effect grainted by this wish spell other then the ablity to evade like a rogue. or I wish to evade like a rogue but keep all my current abilities and form in addition to keeping the ability to pursue them. Hopefully this would keep anything from changing me into a rogue. That is why i worded it as such. also any suggestions on asking for evasion i would be ever so graitfull. also, could i ask not to age in the same wish. You made 4 wishes simultaneously with that wording. 1) I wish to evade Like a rouge 2) I wish to keep all my current abilities when evading like a rogue 3) I wish to keep my form when evading like a rogue 4) I wish to be able to continue pursuing my current abilities when evading like a rogue. Besides, a character wouldnt say a wish like that since there is no CLASSES in their eyes but there is PROFESSIONS. A rogue could fill any number of professions (spy, pickpocket/cutpurse, cat burglar, acrobat, con artist, diplomat, investigator/detective, etc). The other classes can be seen as professions, but the rogue is too diverse to simply group all of them together. In addition, the wish wouldnt talk about evading in general, it would be descriptive, something to the effect of "I wish I could dodge fireballs without suffering any harm" (aka the results of a successful reflex save with evasion or even improved evasion depending on how nice your dm is). Wish: You gain a ring of evasion (25,000gp). Genie: The wish geases you (as per geas/quest) to pursue a roguish profession until such times as you can dodge fireballs without suffering damage (aka until you succeed on one saving throw against a fireball after you gain the evasion class feature). This profession can be of any type (but mechanically must be the rogue class). Efreet: The wish geases you (as per geas/quest) to join the monks of slaughter and train with them until such times as you can dodge fireballs without suffering damage (as above). Since you are geased to join and train with a LE monk organization, your alignment gradually shifts until its LE and then you must continue gaining monk levels until such times as you dodge a fireball without suffering any damage (aka at any point you successfully save against a fireball after gaining evasion at 2nd level).
Darken 01-26-05, 07:33 PM	Who's really "metagaming" when you as the DM require a PC to word a "in-character" Wish? We are just Human. We only have what, 10 Int on average? Maybe 11 or 12 for the smarter ones. A level 17 Wizard who plays with Wish will have much higher Intelligence score than that, say 36 (Base 18 +5 inherent + 5 level + 2 racial +6 Enhancement), how are we suppose to word a Wish like him? We cannot even comprehend his thought process, it's beyond our mental capacity. Metagaming means using player knowledge for a character who does not have the knowledge. Forcing a PC to word a Wish for his character is the reverse of metagaming: Removing character knowledge because the player doesn't have the knowledge. How is that fair? I always have the player tell me what they intent to do with a Wish, and have the character word it. If it's with in the power of the Wish, it happens. If not, it fails. As for the "someone else would have tried it" issue: It's perfectly logical, butwouldn't it be entirely equally conceivable that over the courses of the millions of years of playing with Wish, someone would have invented/evolved the spell so that it does what you want without error? It either works, or it just fails with no effect. As for real Wishes, one of my character made this Wish: "I Wish something would happen to someone."
Dalamar Velkyn 01-26-05, 08:35 PM	Few things first: My character was shifted to plane X, changed to outsider and aquired template Y in the process. Let's say he gained some experience in plane X and gained few levels. Now he's back to home plane and wishes: I wish my body and soul to become as they were before I came to plane X and do not consider soul as depository of experience :)
glimeral 01-26-05, 08:48 PM	Thats easy to fix. You ask the player their intent after wording an in-character wish, and you make the wish as WATER TIGHT as the persons intelligence would suggest. Therefore, a wish from an Int 3 barbarian is going to be a 4 or 5 word wish at MAXIMUM, while the wish of said 17 Int wizard will be a LEGALISE worded wish that is ONE sentence long, with no joining parts (and, if, but, commas etc). For example, here is the same wish worded by characters of varying intelligence: Int 3 "I Wish good sword" Int 5 "I wish for a good sword" Int 7 "I wish to have a holy avenger" Int 10 "I wish to own a holy avenger" Int 13 "I wish to own a holy avenger, but/and......(secondary clause which is truncated)" Int 15 "I wish to own a holy avenger that no-one will miss" Int 16 "I wish to own a holy avenger that no-one else claims ownership of" In 18 "I wish that a holy avenger that only I claim ownership of is teleported to my current location". You can see the difference in the wording. Knowing what the player intends, the smarter the CHARACTER, the more imaginitive you have to be in order to twist the wish. The Int 3 or 5 character is likely to get a MW sword for their efforts as it is a good (read: well made) sword. The Int 10 character is likely to gain possession of a stolen holy avenger. Alternatively, it teleports you into the lair of an evil dragon who currently owns a holy avenger. If the wish is hostile (aka efreet), a holy paladin who is the rightful owner of the item materializes before you. The efreets intention being that you slay the paladin in order to claim his sword (an evil act)... In such a case, the CR of the paladin would be 2 less than normal for an item of this type... The Int 13 character, while trying to be clever, has the wording of his wish truncated and gets the same results as the Int 10 character or their secondary clause is completely warped against their original intention. The Int 15 character is likely to gain possession of a holy avenger that was just teleported out of an absent minded gold dragons horde. Even worse, the item is intelligent and starts loudly screaming "Help! Help! Ive been stolen!" and wont be silenced by any means. The Int 16 character is likely to be teleported into a deep forgotten dungeon, at the center of which is a long forgotten holy avenger. Any creature who once claimed ownership of the item being long since deceased... However, the dungeon is fraught with peril (standard encounters designed for a party of 3 or 4 characters of appropriate level which are very challenging to a solitary character), although none of the encounters are with a creature that claims possession of the sword. The Int 18 character, having been the most tricky of the lot, gains a holy avenger which is made by spending twice the XP as normal to create the item (even if the character cannot normally make the item).
taltamir 01-26-05, 11:09 PM	It is entirely correct that it is metagaming to force a player to word a wish for their character. Either the character is smarter then them, or dumber! and in either case this shouldnt happen. Also, I disagree with the result on the 18 int caster wish for a holy avenger. He wished it would be teleported to him, not that it would be created out of nothing (the application of which costs twice the XP to normally craft it but none of the GP and none of the prerequisites or time, as you said).
glimeral 01-26-05, 11:44 PM	It is entirely correct that it is metagaming to force a player to word a wish for their character. Either the character is smarter then them, or dumber! and in either case this shouldnt happen. Also, I disagree with the result on the 18 int caster wish for a holy avenger. He wished it would be teleported to him, not that it would be created out of nothing (the application of which costs twice the XP to normally craft it but none of the GP and none of the prerequisites or time, as you said). True, however I couldnt think of how to corrupt the wish. And what I meant by the above posting was that regardless of what the player actually says, I will interpret it the way their character would say it... Im sorry, but I find it hard for an Int 3 character to come up with a wish more than 3 or 4 words long since Int 3 characters are described on the WoTC website as having a very poor grasp of the english language, usually restricted to one or 2 word sentences, so even a 3 or 4 word wish might be stretching it a bit far.... It might even be more realistic for them simply to say "Wish sword" and the "Wish good sword" would be for an Int 4 character.
sabrewolf 01-27-05, 03:10 AM	Well, the question kept bouncing in my head.. can the wish affect the familiar along with the master? guess iīm spending my other two wished to test that.. :D Regardless of that, going from the point that the first wish worked and iīm now a dragon.. ( :evillaugh :mage: :w00t: ) consider i have another clawfull of scales (if such was required/helped on the first one.. and include one of mine, eh) and another wish.. "I WISH that the wish i just made (or the last wish i made) repeats itself though now affecting my familiar instead of me!" Iīll go for that though it works for any "I wish my familiar become *Blah!*!!" kind of wish.. then the question, by turning into something else does it remain your familiar? Is the link mantained? Since familiars are allways one size class below the masterīs, what if the familiar is turned into something the same size or bigger? or one could think of another scene, like: " I wish this awakened lycantropic dire-bear that is standing before me now to become my familiar!" ..considering he agreed with that of course.. andyou have the improoved familiar if required. And that came not our of thin air, a geomancer (earth mage) i once had wanted a mammoth as his familiar.. sadly the campaign was interrupted/ended before he could find one..
taltamir 01-27-05, 05:23 AM	mmmm, sure, I would say a wish is a valid way for overcomming the limitation on having a familiar thats not a size category smaller then you. As for the dragon familiar... Just make him a smaller dragon. you end up with a big dragon with a small dragon familiar.... heh, maybe a psudeo dragon?
glimeral 01-27-05, 01:07 PM	Even better... The wish duplicates the effects of the 4th level psion/wilder power (psychic reformation) and replaces your last feat with the dragon familiar feat from the Draconomicon. If the DM is being nice and you already have the Improved Familiar feat, he could just swap your Improved Familiar feat for the Dragon Familiar feat. Dragon familiar grants you a wyrmling dragon that stays with you for 5 years and then is replaced by a different wyrmling dragon. If you wanted to keep your bond with your wyrmling dragon after 5 years (when it grows to a new age category) simply take the Leadership feat and make your ex-dragon familiar your dragon cohort instead. And as to getting a pseudodragon, I believe you can already do that with the Improved Familiar feat as it is.
taltamir 01-27-05, 02:22 PM	This is why i suggested a psudeo dragon. Since it is already possible, the wish isnt actually giving you anything aside from changing the choice you made to be as if you have gotten a psudeo dragon in the first place... that and it has the memories and personality of your current familiar.
Moon-Lancer 01-28-05, 04:54 PM	Sorry to bother you people but how would a word a wish so my charicter gets evasion but not from a ring. By actualy getting it as a ex ablility. My charicter has vop. the dm said i may get one wish later in the game if i roll play an exalted charicter and do it well.
Darken 01-28-05, 05:35 PM	Well, if you are going to use Int for the wording, you as the DM should not create the wording as well, since you are also Human and won't have the fantasy-world Intelligence scores. Using Intelligence checks against certain DC to word the Wish would be the best way that accurately reflect the character's abilities. If it were me that plays a high level Wizard character where Wishes would be cast on a relatively regular basis, then I will either burn my first Wish to tie up loose ends, or I will create a document as a pre-set clause and Wish with that. Say, I cast Wish, and say "I wish all Wish spells cast by me will function perfectly as my intention, regardless of how I actually word the Wish." Or, I will research in some well-established acadmy with scholars and produce an air-tight document that rule out all possible negative consequences as a clause, and when I cast Wish I refer to it and just say I wish according to the wording on that document exactly. That should be sufficient to provide a Wish that either succeeds or fails, with no unexpected results or prevertion. Another important thing is that, smart PCs will remember their wordings and use it to their advantage even if you pervert it. Say they made a Wish and say "I wish to be more experienced" and the result is several red dragons show up to provide a challenge. Next time (if they survive), when they meet the BBEG, they are gonna cast Wish, and say "I wish he (point to the BBEG) can be more experienced."
glimeral 01-28-05, 07:43 PM	Another important thing is that, smart PCs will remember their wordings and use it to their advantage even if you pervert it. Say they made a Wish and say "I wish to be more experienced" and the result is several red dragons show up to provide a challenge. Next time (if they survive), when they meet the BBEG, they are gonna cast Wish, and say "I wish he (point to the BBEG) can be more experienced." Ah but you forget how to pervert even that intention..... A single creature that will provide the BBEG a handful of XP (1-5) shows up and attacks the BBEG. He kills it in one attack and becomes more experienced. Or several red dragons, do indeed show up and provide a challenge... for EVERYONE.... The BBEG will become more experienced (if he survives) but so will you... Or a hostile perversion of the wish.. The spell duplicates the effects of a hold monster spell targeting YOU and you voluntarily fail the saving throw (since you believe that any spell effect generated by the wish will be beneficial to you). The BBEG is compelled to perform a coupe de grace attack against you, making him more experienced. Just because you pervert a wish one way, doesnt mean it will work the same way every time, especially since you changed the wording of the wish (since it targeted the BBEG instead of yourself).
prozacman 01-29-05, 12:40 AM	-i wish for a book that contains every spell ever written -i wish to have a sword that can cut through anything -i wish for the ability to grant wishes just pulled these outta my hindquarters... hopefully youll have some fun twisting them around
taltamir 01-29-05, 12:47 AM	i wish for a book that contains every spell ever written - You are teleported to the sanctum of the arcane brotherhood (dont remember their name) obsessed with filling a special book their founder received from some shady creature with the command to fill with all spells possible, she is now a demilich constantly scribing in the book, members of the brotherhood must partake quests to aquire more spells, OR donate money, OR research spells, OR give a unique spell they made, OR perform another service. High ranking members might get access to the book for exceptional services :P i wish to have a sword that can cut through anything - The wish crafts a vorpel sword, vorpel swords do cut through everything, they are just mechanically simplified to decapitate automatically on a nat 20 (quite weak considering they are supposed to cut anything) i wish for the ability to grant wishes - You become a genie, you awake in the plane of the genies as a genie, you are naked, and must now begin your adventure, would you remain as a genie or seek to become human again? I am only gonna do wishes from the standpoint of a caster now, there is really no point making suggestions for HARMFUL twisting of wishes, anyone can do that...
Darken 02-01-05, 03:42 PM	How can you pervert intentions? Intentions are just thoughts there are no wordings at all required in thoughts. (both real world and fantasy world of D&D confirm this) The only interptations are your own, since you want it to go according to YOUR intention. Just what you want in the simpliest format with absolutely no other complications or differences possible. If you want a +5 sword, you want a +5 sword. You don't want a +4 sword, you don't want an epic +6 sword, you don't want a cursed sword, you don't want a sword in the hand of another creature, you don't want a sword that cost you xp as though you craft it, and you don't want a sword that require you to be a half-minotaur celestial badger who has 10 ranks in perform (ancient japanese dance) and the feat skill focus (profession(gambler)) to be +5. You just want a +5 sword, nothing else. You cast Wish, and you want a +5 sword. Then the DM decides, is it too powerful for a Wish spell? If so, the Wish fails. If not, the Wish works, and you get a +5 sword. And, why would the preversion be harsher for the PCs? Why would a level 17 PC get a visit from a horde of Red Dragon when he wants to be more experienced, when the same PC wish a level 17 BBEG to be more experienced only attract a few kobolds? If I wish "I wish I am immortal" gets me in a Temporal Stasis, why would my friend wish "I wish he *points to BBEG* is immortal" produces a drastically less significant result?
glimeral 02-01-05, 04:01 PM	How can you pervert intentions? Intentions are just thoughts there are no wordings at all required in thoughts. (both real world and fantasy world of D&D confirm this) The only interptations are your own, since you want it to go according to YOUR intention. Just what you want in the simpliest format with absolutely no other complications or differences possible. If you want a +5 sword, you want a +5 sword. You don't want a +4 sword, you don't want an epic +6 sword, you don't want a cursed sword, you don't want a sword in the hand of another creature, you don't want a sword that cost you xp as though you craft it, and you don't want a sword that require you to be a half-minotaur celestial badger who has 10 ranks in perform (ancient japanese dance) and the feat skill focus (profession(gambler)) to be +5. You just want a +5 sword, nothing else. You cast Wish, and you want a +5 sword. Then the DM decides, is it too powerful for a Wish spell? If so, the Wish fails. If not, the Wish works, and you get a +5 sword. Read the description of wish again. You may try to use wish to produce greater effects than these (the guidelines in the description of wish), but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment). Emphasis mine. I dont need to answer your question with my own answer, as the wording of the spell already does it for me. And, why would the preversion be harsher for the PCs? Why would a level 17 PC get a visit from a horde of Red Dragon when he wants to be more experienced, when the same PC wish a level 17 BBEG to be more experienced only attract a few kobolds? If I wish "I wish I am immortal" gets me in a Temporal Stasis, why would my friend wish "I wish he *points to BBEG* is immortal" produces a drastically less significant result? Its not harsher for the PCs. The INTENT of the wish was different. The first wish was for the PC to become more powerful. The INTENT of the second wish was to cause the BBEG suffering through prior knowledge of the results of their OWN wish, and INTENDING the same results to be used as a weapon against their enemies. You forget something also, if even ONE word is different, the wish can be interpretted differently. Even if the wording is 100% identical, the wording can usually be interpretted in multiple ways on different occassions meaning that any ONE of those interpretations may be the result. In the example you are quoting, the wording and the INTENT of the wish was different. The wording was "I wish that BBEG would become more powerful" instead of "I wish to become more powerful"... Completely different wording. The INTENT was "I wish that the BBEG be attacked by powerful foes that are likely to kill him, but if he survives will make him more powerful" instead of "I wish to instantly gain a character level". Completely different intent. So you can see, both the INTENT and the WORDING are different, therefore why would the results be the same?
taltamir 02-01-05, 05:41 PM	you contradict yourself glimmeral, first you disagree with him that its the intent that counts, saying that a wish should be pervertable based on its wording. Then you say that the reason why it makes different results for pcs and npcs is because of intent. As for the different wording... you could always say "I wish to duplicate the effect as if he wished that: <insert previous wish>"
Darken 02-01-05, 06:37 PM	Glimmeral, you are not reading my post clearly, nor are you reading the Wish spell clearly. Look at your own quote; why would there be any perversion in the first place? Because of the wording. If I "word" a Wish, then there can be different interpetations of it, many of which you, or anyone else, can use to "pervert my intention due to my wording". But, if there is absolutely no wording to begin with, and I am Wishing entirely base on my thoughts and intention, which are wordless to begin with, what are you trying to pervert? === (This is a separator. Don't try to combine the above with the second discussion to get the wrong idea again.) As for your reason for different intents between "I wish I am immortal" and "I wish he is immortal", I have two responses. One, I repeat my questions once more, why are PCs treated harsher? This goes deeper than your logic, which is basically "when I wish myself immortal, I am trying to gain something, and when I wish BBEG to be immortal, I am also trying to make BBEG lose something by having that intention perverted." In both cases, you are favoring the PC's enemies: foiling PC's attempt to better himself in the first case, and dismissing BBEG's chance to receive a penalty. Why? Secondly, the only reason why a PC would make such a Wish for BBEG, is by knowing in the first place, that the PC, or one of his friends, or someone else, had made the same (ok, let's say similar, since you say 1 word different would mean a different wish) Wish and suffer a particular consequence. Thus, when the PC makes such a Wish, his intention is to have BBEG suffer that same consequence. With me so far? Now then, if it's the "wording of the wish" and not the intention that matters, BBEG should suffer the same (ok, a similar) fate because the wording is nearly identical. If it's the "intention of the wish" and not the wording, then what are you trying to pervert in the first place? Again, in both cases, you are penalizing the PC either way. === From all those, I have a follow up. What do you do, when a PC make a negative Wish for himself that is beyond the scope of Wish? For example, a PC, for some reason, Wish that he be irreversibly weaker than an infant ant forever. Suppose from a mechanically point of view he is asking for a -10 Inherent penalty on Strength, do you pervert it by only giving him -5, or giving him like -8 with a lot of "buts" and "ands"? If not, why do you only penalize a PC's gain?
glimeral 02-01-05, 06:50 PM	I dont make wishes that directly hurt the PC... Instead I try to make the wish grant them an unexpected benefit, or a mixed blessing. As to why the wish would be perverted in the first place, read wish... stop arguing with me on the point of why... its IN THE RULES is why. The purpose of this thread, if you have been following it thoroughly, is to create a tool where DMs can create BENEFICIAL or at the very least MIXED benefit interpretations.... I only included hostile interpretations for those times when you are getting the wish granted by someone OTHER than yourselves.... Before you start griping, go read some of the interpretations we have made. Then tell me whether we are truly out to get the PC. For that matter, if the wish falls under the guidelines of the spell, no interpretation is needed... The wish works 100% exactly as intended. Its only when wishing outside this RELIABLE limit, that there is room for error, the margin of error should be proportionate to the GREED of the player, but it should be somewhat beneficial... If you noticed the examples I gave, the wish does benefit the player... although not as expected. If the red dragons show up, they are EQUALLY harrassing the BBEG, meaning that he cannot deal with the heroes right now and *might* get the biggest brunt of the attack based on the dice rolls. If the goblin shows up, thats ONE less attack the BBEG is directing against the heroes due to the compulsion effect placed on the BBEG, or one less Combat round that he is directing his attack against the heroes if he has to move to the goblin (which is what I suggested in the first place IIRC). In other words, the heroes have one free round of attacks against the BBEG... How can you say that isnt a benefit? The wish is granting you MORE benefit than gaining a surprise round of attacks. Just because it didnt go as expected, doesnt mean that you arent being helped in the process. Since your intent was to butter the BBEG up and make him easier for the heroes to defeat, intent fulfilled.. The BBEG is easier to defeat since the entire party had a free round of actions against him. Both the literal intent (wishing for the BBEG to become more experienced) and the ACTUAL intent are fulfilled. Stop complaining about my methods... If you cant do better at fulfilling ALL aspects of the PCs wish (including the unspoken motive behind it in the first place) then you have nothing to complain about... especially since the wish WILL be perverted or granted in its most straight forward manner, as it is a wish outside of the guidelines in the spell.. Ignore the hostile interpretation. They are only there to show you what an EFREET might do if you wished for that effect and they granted it.
Darken 02-01-05, 07:10 PM	You have misunderstood my points entirely. I have no intention in sabotaging your effort to create this thread for DMs to draw upon ideas. I actually have read the whole thread through, prior to my first post in the thread. I am not arguing against perverting Wish at all; what I am arguing against, is the fact you insist on mixing up intention with wording, even though I present a method that can logically bypass this negative aspect of Wish. Perhaps you are reading my idea as hostile in thinking, that if what I am saying is true and the arguement is sound, then this whole thread is pointless. But all I am pointing out is a logical method to more effectively use the Wish. Just like you are providing a "counter" for the DM in the event a greedy PC makes a Wish that is outside its normal power level, I am providing another "counter" for PCs to take the pre-emptive step for DMs who might attach unwanted negative impacts in their WIsh to their characters. Which works for Djinns or Efferts as well.
glimeral 02-01-05, 10:49 PM	Except that the golden rule with wishes is that the intent of the wish is what is perverted.. One way to pervert a wish is by fulfilling the WORDING in a literal but undesirable way, since the wording, by definition is supposed to reflect the INTENT of the wish, but it isnt the ONLY way. Thats where I think you have gotten this idea that I am mixing wording with intent. I am fulfilling the intent of the wish in a literal way, by using the wording as a marker.... Remember, I cant read minds, therefore, only my foreknowledge of the players and my own reasoning power will give me the INSIGHT into a PCs intentions for a wish other than what I would gain from listening to the wording in the first place.... And in the case of the djinni and efreeti, they arent neccessarily going to have that same insight into the PCs since they a) dont know them and b) may not have the same intellect and c) may not care about or understand humanoid logic. But that doesnt help DMs who are not as intelligent as myself (no offense intended, as Im certain there are DMs smarter than myself also, but the sad truth is that not all DMs have the same reasoning power), nor does it help DMs who do not know the players well enough to have an insight into their thinking. Therefore, all that is left to figure out what the intent of the wish is, is the wording of the wish, what the player tells you they are trying to achieve, and the environmental situation that the wish is being performed in. If the player wishes for ANYTHING that is outside the realms of what wish reliably grants, then they have to be prepared for the wish to skew AWAY from their actual intent, and be fulfilled either in part, or in an UNDESIRABLE yet literal way due to one aspect being taken out of context and have its IMPORTANCE in the scheme of the results skewed. If the players are trying to DELIBERATELY cast a wish that will have a CERTAIN effect, and that effect is one due the results of a previously powerful wish, then it shows that they are already playing with fire, and are going to get burnt. As I said above, only ONE aspect of the wish has to be perverted in importance, and it doesnt always have to be the same part, nor to the same degree of importance. In fact, I never give the same results twice when it comes to powerful wishes, showing the players that they will never get a PREDICTABLE result from their wish, no matter how many times they cast it, which is I think, the intent of perverting them in the first place. Otherwise you have the players simply expanding the list of wish to have different effects that are every bit as predictable and garunteed as those that are in the spells description.
taltamir 02-01-05, 11:14 PM	dont be so defensive glim, darken is trying to help!
Molot 02-02-05, 05:19 AM	I wish my Sun Elf 6'th level warmage (Faerun) to be able to heal without any limits except his spells per day per level... And there is only abot 3000gp left for inventory :( But I can try to get a bit more (from PC's I will heal :D ) for this purpose. PS I don't belive I'll get Moonblade with that power. PS2 Arcane Disciple works well, but gives me only 3 spells / day. Spontaneous healer would make it 6/day whole, so it is still mot enought, and I would like not to use more than 1 feat for this purpose... Additionas spell feat works not that bad, but castind "cure light wounds" using 2'nd and 3'rd level slots don't sounds like a good trade ;) So "wish" simply granting feat isn't a way...
Darken 02-02-05, 01:21 PM	I think you are still not grasping what I am trying to present here. I understand that the Wish spell (more so than necessary, due to reasons unrelated to this discussion) in that the intention may be perverted in a literal sense, due to the wording of such intention and the power desired being beyond the scope of a level 9 spell. But the points I am trying to make, to break down simply, are these: 1, A character normally would have a much higher Intelligence than the player controlling him/her/it. As such, the player should not be the one to come up with the wording, as it penalizes him for not allowing their character to exercise fully his/her/its mental capabilities. 2, The forces of cosmo (in the event of a Wish) normally would have a much higher Intelligence and/or Wisdom than the DM. As such, the DM should not be the one to interpret/guess the wording and/or intent of Wishes, for the same reason as above. 3, A Wish which was previously perverted one way should be consistent when repeated in a similar manner. This is obviously up to the DM to rule one way or the other, but I argue that magic spells are like developed science of our world, which are consistent once fully developed. I am saying spells as science in the sense such as gravity or light, not something full of holes like evolution. Or, if it would help, think of it as technology. A piece of machinery will produce effect "A" if I press button "A". Unless it malfunctions, which is relatively rare, it would be consistent. A spell is similar: if I move my arms like this, and I chant these words, while throwing around these powders, I get this effect. 4, From all of the above, whatever is causing the pervertion of the Wish, be it an evil jinn, or the will of the multiverse, wordings must first exist to represent the intent of the Wish in order for it to be perverted, hence the "literal" adjective in the Wish spell description. Intents are wordless thoughts that transcend languages, while wordings deascribing the intent can be interperted in multiple ways, thus the source of pervertion. One making the Wish can have his intent perverted due to his wording. His intent by itself is not pervertable, but the wording opens up possibilities of different interpertion thus can be perverted. Thus, I argue that if the wording do not exist in the first place, for example, the character find/invent a method to Wish directly with his intention without wording involved, then there is no wording to be preverted at all. The Wish will either work completely if the DM deems it reasonable, or fail completely should the DM deem it too powerful to grant.