Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sancus 06-05-04, 04:54 AM	Another fine ability brought to you by the balance masters of Complete Divine. Cometfall is a 6th level cleric/druid spell that does not allow SR, is Medium range, and drops a comet from 5ft/caster level above the targeted area, which is a 10ft square. It deals 2d6 damage per 10ft dropped, with a maximum of the ceiling height and reflex half. So, outdoors, or anywhere with a high ceiling, this is basically a 1d6/caster level spell that deals untyped damage to a 10ft-square with no SR. This blatantly blows out of the water any core Sor/Wiz spell that I can think of at 6th level, let alone cleric spells. Worse, there is no cap on that damage. So if you can boost your caster level to 30, then yes, you get 30d6 damage out of this monster. Just to add some insult to injury, it also trips everyone that fails their reflex save with a fairly nasty +11 bonus on the trip check. Can anyone think of a reason why this might not be unbelievably broken?
The Simbul 06-05-04, 06:57 AM	Yeah, I remeber when Divine spellcasters were supposed to be the healers of the party, not the armor-wearing versions of Wizards.
smrtgmp 06-05-04, 07:25 AM	Yeah, that book is chuck full of powerul divine spells that seem more like arcane spells. Lets just hope Complete Arcane will help to level the playing field.
Senko 06-05-04, 08:04 AM	I have a nasty suspicion the complete Arcane will be chock full of powerful healing spells that turn them into a non-armour wearing cleric. As for spells in my game I've so far had little trouble with the policy the player can bring in any official thing (Race, class, spell) for their character provided I (A) See the original official source to confirm its origins and make a copy for myself as well as see anything I may want to use against them in the book. And (B) Approve its use for the character. It means a little extra work for me but seems to work out alright as the players are happy they get to try out a lot of new things like Fire elves and gestalt classes while I can stop anything I don't like being used by them for either game play purposes or role playing ones. Such as the cometfall spell or other massive damage cleric spells.
smrtgmp 06-05-04, 08:14 AM	Originally posted by Senko I have a nasty suspicion the complete Arcane will be chock full of powerful healing spells that turn them into a non-armour wearing cleric. I dont think that will be the case. At least, I hope not. No, the healing arcane caster was handled in the complete divine, so I would imagine they wont touch on it much in complete arcane. Thats my prediction, anyways. So says Nostragimpy.
Seeker95 06-05-04, 12:37 PM	It is a 6th level spell, so it has a DMG-core rules damage cap of 15d6 (3.5 DMG page 35).
ArchonXVI 06-05-04, 01:11 PM	not unless the spell specificly states that it has the cap. I would think that the listing in the DMG is a guideline, not a rule.
Edymnion 06-05-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by ArchonXVI not unless the spell specificly states that it has the cap. I would think that the listing in the DMG is a guideline, not a rule. Yup, thats the suggested cap for 6th level spells, a balance guideline. If this spell does not specifically say "Maximum 15d6", or some other maximum damage, it has no cap. Any spell with no damage cap is a BAD thing, regardless of level.
Veton 06-05-04, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 It is a 6th level spell, so it has a DMG-core rules damage cap of 15d6 (3.5 DMG page 35). Those really are the designer's advice on how the damage cap should be on a spell either you or a player designs.
cwslyclgh 06-05-04, 02:46 PM	I believe since the 3e environment is all about "return to the Dungeon" they figured that it was going to be doing 4d6 or less more often then not (because in dungeons ceiling height in seldom more then 20 ft.) which makes this a fairly crappy 6th level spell... I cn see why they would increase the damage cap some what beyond the guidelines (since you will only get to do the increased damage part of the time)... I think I would have given a stated Damage cap of 20d6 though.
Edward 06-05-04, 03:11 PM	I would be wiling to allow it at slightly hire than the normal cleric aria effect damage limit beacons it is only useful out doors and it is a small aria. Probably damage cap it as a single target spell. But where things get interesting is when you use it for tactical preposes. What happens when I drop one of these on a buildings roof that can’t take the damage? Dose the comet continue to fall. What if I target it on the flor of a building with a week roof? Will it then plunge threw the roof adding falling roof damage to the spell damage. And its effect on a ship would be disasters considering it gets no SR or elemental resistance (the 2 easiest ways to protect a ship from spells). Edward
Seeker95 06-05-04, 03:53 PM	Sometimes you folks really confuse the heck out of me. Sancus asked for a reason this is not horribly broken. Using a rule / guideline found in the DMG, I provided a reason this is not horribly broken. Then everyone says the guideline does not apply. Sometimes guidelines really are just that -- guidelines. Rules that make the DM's life easier. Ignore the guidelines simply because some designer did not repeat the guideline when he wrote the spell. If you *want* the spell to be broken, go for it.
The Simbul 06-05-04, 04:11 PM	The problem isnt the damage dice, its the fact that there is no SR or apparently no damage type, which places it far above similar spells of that level. P.S. The maximum damage for falling objects is 20d6, thus it wont scale infinitely, even if there is no listed damage cap.
Sancus 06-05-04, 04:49 PM	Using a rule / guideline found in the DMG, I provided a reason this is not horribly broken. Well, it's still broken even if it is capped, because of no SR and no damage type. If it was capped at 15d6, it might be acceptable if it allowed SR and dealt elemental damage. However, those guidelines bother me a lot. They're unbelievably vague, they leave caps at 'X dice' without explaining the differences between damage dice, and worse, they super overpower the cleric if you allow them. At any given spell level, the worst the cap is for a divine caster is 5d6 below the arcane cap. That's ridiculous. For example, the 9th level cap for arcane is 25 dice for multiple target, and for divine, it's 20d6. Oh no, my divine caster with a d8 hitdie, more spells per day, armor, etc, is allowed to do 20d6 as a 9th level spell and the arcane caster can only deal 25d6? Whatever. That's just nonsense. Worse, they don't make any distinction between Druids and Clerics -- which is stupid. Honestly, those guidelines provide just enough information for you to screw up nearly every spell you write trying to shoehorn them into the nonsensical caps that most of the PHB spells don't even follow(25d6 my ass, try 32d6 meteor swarm). They do far more harm than good.
Edymnion 06-05-04, 06:43 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 Sancus asked for a reason this is not horribly broken. Using a rule / guideline found in the DMG, I provided a reason this is not horribly broken. Then everyone says the guideline does not apply. Sometimes guidelines really are just that -- guidelines. Rules that make the DM's life easier. Oberoni Fallacy. Just because the DM can fix it doesn't make it balanced in the first place. The overriding rule of thumb is that if the book doesn't say something happens, then it doesn't happen. Book never says this spell has a cap, hence it does not have a cap. There are guidelines to suggest what a 6th level spell should be able to do. Just like there are guidelines on how to price magic items. The books often do not follow those guidelines, for either pricing nor damage. This is one of those times. Don't worry though, its just power creep. The more it happens, and the faster it happens, the sooner everyone will be able to spot it. Little bit of outcry from the fanbase, and the pendulem will swing back towards sanity again. :)
smrtgmp 06-05-04, 07:02 PM	*shrugs* I'll probably use it as a 7th or 8th level spell in my campaigns. Maybe one level lower for sor/wiz. IMO it seems more appropriate for their spell list anyways.
IceFractal 06-05-04, 07:49 PM	Hmm, Complete Arcane,eh? Lets use my Time-Goggles (TM) to look and see what will be in it .... ... I see .... lots and lots of Wizard spells, although Clerics still have better ones .... a feat that lets Wizards cast spontaneously by at a cost of 1 spell slot .... but nothing for Sorcerers yet, hmmm ..... oh wait, here's something .... Sorcerer rules update: Sorcerers now only cast up to 8th level spells, have max 3 spells of a given level/day known, and cannot use metamagic under any circumstances. This update fixes the problem that Sorcerers were not being nerfed to a sufficient extent .... well, that's it for Sorcerers, but here's a 5 level prestige class that lets Clerics cast arcane spells and manifest psionic powers ... well, that looks like the end of the book .... :rolleyes: Ok, so maybe I'm exaggerating the Cleric boosting/Sorcerer diminishing trend a little, but wait and see if I'm right, I bet Clerics will continue to reign supreme, and the Sorcerer will be lucky to get a single feat. :mad: But hey, maybe I'm wrong.
jensun 06-05-04, 08:32 PM	Originally posted by IceFractal Hmm, Complete Arcane,eh? Lets use my Time-Goggles (TM) to look and see what will be in it .... .... but nothing for Sorcerers yet, hmmm ..... oh wait, here's something .... Sorcerer rules update: Sorcerers now only cast up to 8th level spells, have max 3 spells of a given level/day known, and cannot use metamagic under any circumstances. This update fixes the problem that Sorcerers were not being nerfed to a sufficient extent .... You neglected to include a number of rehashed PrC's with half caster levels that no-one will ever take and 2 or 3 godly ones with obscure Knowledge and feat requirements that sorcerers cant qualify for.
Seyluun 06-05-04, 08:40 PM	Cometfall isn't that good, since it s basically worthless when cast indoor. Even outdoor, the spell only target a small area and is likely to hit only one creature for some pretty low damage (35 av. at caster level 11, on a missed save.. not exactly game-breaking). Th "no cap" part isn't really a problem either, since when you have a caster level of 30 you are more likely to cast Blasphemy or Holy Word than Cometfall, and the damage won't make it anyway against high-CR encounters. And most of all, it can t even damage flying opponents! However, the spell is to blame for having a much stronger arcane flavor, rather than divine.
Sancus 06-05-04, 09:35 PM	"basically worthless when cast indoors" is not a limitation. You don't cast it indoors nor do you even prepare it if you're planning on dungeon crawling. Low damage? Chain Lightning at CL11 will only do 38.5 average damage to ONE target, and half that to those in the area, and it allows SR, and doesn't have an extremely powerful trip check attached, nor does it leave rubble that slows all movement in the area. Clerics are supposed to be doing 2/3 or less the damage of an arcane caster, not doing 3.5 damage less with no SR, and with a super powered trip effect. And it doesn't help the spell to compare it to broken nonsense like Holy Word and find it weaker :P
Mango_stuff 06-06-04, 06:09 AM	Why can't Divine casters have these powerful spells, haven't they been jiped out of spellcasting enough. Think about it, as an arcane spellcaster progresses their spells advance somewhat like this... BURN, BURRRN, Burn more then poke, BURN BIG, FREEZE, FRY, Kill alot... THEN DIE, FRY EVERYONE... EVERYWHERE, and finally... BLOW UP EVERYTHING... THEN DIEEEE. Where as with a cleric its... OH! I think I can... nope heal, so close to... heal, almost... heal, HEAL BIGTIME... oh.... sorry god... won't happen again, OH! FINALLY I CAN CAST... heal, YES! now I get the chance to DESTRo... heal. And with a Druid its, flower blossem, drink fairy water, run fast like animal, best friends forever little kitty, WHIRL WIND, ELEMENTAL SWARM.... oh! OH NO! I killed a wittle bitty gerbil... NOOOOOOO... powers lost. If your playing with a good DM (like mine has been doing good at with his last camp, which I recieved most of my Cleric and Group Role experience in... thanks mike) you will realize that while your trying desperatly to blast away things, your healer is your last thread of hope, if they stop saving your lives/calming the forces of heaven, hell and earth from saying... stop burning me, your all screwed. And it sounds to me like your spell slots are going 3..2..gone, thus haveing a damn powerful spell or two for mid level on a cleric/druid isn't so bad, because if you fail... and believe me, its hard for smart PC sorc's and wiz's to fail... or your spell slots run slim, a medic with a bazooka is your best friend. And besides If you make it to 30th lvl as a sorc or wiz, you can eat comet fall for breakfast, and then laugh as you cast an infinatly more powerfull spell... that you made... to moch it. Meanwhile the cleric will probably be doing his dieties chores, which would include saving the world/ taking it over from you and your army of Armagedon like spells, most of which are more powerful than his. And the druid would hug a tree. *for those of you concerned mike is my lover... gocha :)
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 07:28 AM	Originally posted by Mango_stuff And besides If you make it to 30th lvl as a sorc or wiz, you can eat comet fall for breakfast, and then laugh as you cast an infinatly more powerfull spell... that you made... to moch it. I dont think comparing the spell casting ability of a 30th level character is appropriate in this case, since a priest would gain access to comet fall at 11th level. Of course a 30th level spell caster could do better. Whats your point?
Mango_stuff 06-06-04, 11:54 AM	my point is that in spellcasting, sorc/wiz's get allot more spells that deal damage than anyone in the game, so one powerful mid lvl cleric/druid spell could help a bit. my second point was that if a cleric is at 30th lvl, and he wants to waist his time with cometfall, go ahead, you have a vast amount of more powerful spells anyway, if your a sorc/wiz.
strockrow 06-06-04, 01:25 PM	As it is now, I would make it a 7th level Sorc/Wiz spell. (Maybe an 8th level druid/cleric spell) In my opinion , this would be really awesome as a 9th level spell (let's be honest, isn't the image of a meteor being summoned from space and obliterating your ennemies really cool?) I'd just boost the area to 20 feet, make it a full round action to cast, and extend the range to long. (Maybe boost the trip bonus, as well as make the damage cap at 30d6). There, instant ninth level spell. That sounds good to me, what does everone else think?
Edymnion 06-06-04, 02:11 PM	Originally posted by Seyluun Cometfall isn't that good, since it s basically worthless when cast indoor. And a longbow is basically worthless indoors as well. As is any weapon with a range increment of more than about 10 feet, because rooms and caverns are almost never big enough to get even one range increment of bows and crossbows in, much less full range. Doesn't mean a longbow doesn't own in wide open country. Especially when the DM runs something other than a dungeon crawling game. My games, for example, don't go into dungeons much. One I'm currently running is going to spend a lot of time outdoors, so something like this would be a big problem if I allowed it. Of course, your other arguments are rather shakey as well. By the time this spell could do a lot of damage, yes, the caster will have access to higher level spells that can do more. Those higher level spells also take up higher level spell slots. So lets compare apples to apples, shall we? Find any other spell of the same level that can do as much damage at caster lvl 20 as Cometfall can, and then we'll see if its balanced.
Sancus 06-06-04, 04:29 PM	Compare it to Fire Storm even - Clr8, Drd7. Fire Storm's only, single benefit over Cometfall is that it has a larger area of effect. Cometfall is better in every single other way. Damage -- Fire storm as an _8th level cleric spell_ is capped at 20d6, cometfall is uncapped No SR, Fire Storm allows SR. This is worth almost an entire spell level by itself, honestly, because at high level practically everything and his gay uncle has SR. Trip check -- not to be overlooked, given that Trip is a strength check, a +11 bonus on it is pretty damn nasty. Type - Firestorm deals fire damage, at level 15(minimum to cast an 8th level spell) fire damage is quite common. Cometfall is untyped. This also is worth nearly an entire spell level by itself. So you're telling me that a larger area of effect is worth at LEAST 4-5 spell levels worth of goodies(there's 2+ in that list, plus Cometfall is 2 levels lower than Firestorm). Lol. Cometfall, capped at 20d6, would still be excessive for Cleric level 8. The no SR and untyped damage is EXTREMELY powerful. In fact, you could compare this spell not unfavorably with Horrid Wilting which is Sor/Wiz 8.(despite the fact that Horrid Wilting 3.5 isn't an 8th level spell).
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by Sancus (despite the fact that Horrid Wilting 3.5 isn't an 8th level spell). Uhh...it is in my PHB. I agree with the rest of what you said, though.
Seyluun 06-06-04, 04:47 PM	Longbows, and all the bows and crossbows in general ARE worthless in D&d, since they are completly foiled by low level spells, but it s not the point. So, outdoor, Cometfall is the cream of the crop? Maybe, as long as you do not face flying opponents, wich will happen a lot past level 11. As I said, it s not a bad spell, but it s definitely not game breaking in any way (in fact, I don t think that anything set for dealing damage can be game breaking, since it s very easy to adjust). I still think its main issue is the lack of divine flavor. As for dealing more damage with a divine spell at same spell level, well, Harm come readily in mind...
Sancus 06-06-04, 04:52 PM	Uhh...it is in my PHB. I meant that it's not worth spell level 8 anymore since they destroyed both the damage dice and the cap. :) Longbows, and all the bows and crossbows in general ARE worthless in D&d, since they are completly foiled by low level spells Um, I'm pretty sure you just ruined all your arguments by stating that bows and crossbows are worthless in D&D. That's just laughable.
Seyluun 06-06-04, 04:55 PM	Feel free to have your opinion. It s my personal experience that bows and crossbows, used by standards medium-sized PCs, tend to be more and more worthless at mid and high level.
Mango_stuff 06-06-04, 04:56 PM	I say let clerics/druids with cometfall have there fun, sure its powerful, but wouldn't they have to worry about allot of other things around them... who to heal, who to protect, who to stab in the back. (if your evil) It's not like they are going to go cometfall happy and waist it everywhere... look! an ugly badger... COMET FALL!!! (thats of course if they are smart) This spell could be a great DM test too, it will let them know who is planing things out in the group, or it could give him an idea of how his players react to a devistating spell. There is an abundance of possibilities other than... That spell is to powerful... It just depends on how well people play things out. If your smart you will use the spell to take out one hard hitting foe, thus making the stuggle against enemies much easier, or if it is used on you and your group, It could be an eye opener, making PC's say "hey, lets be a bit more carefull.. K guys, time to plan"
Malben 06-06-04, 05:06 PM	Seyluun: Your experience is anomalous, then. I'm not being deliberately offensive, so I hope you don't take it that way, but an archery specialist is every bit as powerful as any other weapon-using build. It beats the pants off of a two-weapon fighting specialist, for example, because it's less feat-intensive, deals more damage, and allows about the same number of extra attacks. My experience of being in the same party as a high-level archer character was really an eye-opener -- with a +1 anarchic holy bow, archery feats, and decent physical ability scores, I've seen a level 15-ish archer deal something in the neighborhood of 1d8+5+6d6 damage per attack, and land three or four such attacks in a row. We're talking about wizard-like damage, here. And she could do it all day long, until she ran out of arrows.
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by Sancus I meant that it's not worth spell level 8 anymore since they destroyed both the damage dice and the cap. :) Ahh...I see what you're saying. In that case, I agree. I think its a load of crap what they did to horrid wilting. Give me back my d8, damn it! :rant: Abi'Dalzim must be turning in his grave.:sad:
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by Mango_stuff If your smart you will use the spell to take out one hard hitting foe, thus making the stuggle against enemies much easier :confused: If you're smart? What else are you going to use it for? All it does is damage, so its not like it has any other applications. I'm sorry, by I find your arguments less than convincing. Thus far they have been nothing but silly anictodes that portray various spell casters in a less than accurate light. The fact of the matter is that this spell exceeds the damage cap for a 6th level divine spell. It does typeless damage and bypasses SR. You can write all the stories you want, but it doesnt change the fact that the spell does more damage than it should for a 6th level divine spell. In regards to this spell being useless underground, that is irrelevant. Fire spells are useless under water. Most spells are worthless in certain situations. That doesnt make them less powerful in the situations at which they excel. As for dealing more damage with a divine spell at same spell level, well, Harm come readily in mind... Harm has a range of touch. Big difference. Its also subject to SR.
Seyluun 06-06-04, 05:51 PM	I was just speaking of damage, since it was the point; and all in all, Harm is a better spell than Cometfall from far. On the other hand, Harm is arguably one of the top 5 core spell, so it doesn t mean anything about Cometfall's strenght.
Seeker95 06-06-04, 06:34 PM	deleted... comment was addressed and clarified.
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 06:36 PM	But it does have a damage cap in pre-epic levels. A 20th level caster can only do 20d6 damage. which exceeds the suggested damage cap for a 6th level divine spell. edit:BTW-I'm reffering to the post below mine. NOt sure how mine ended up above yours.
Seeker95 06-06-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by Sancus Cometfall [...] drops a comet from 5ft/caster level above the targeted area, which is a 10ft square. It deals 2d6 damage per 10ft dropped, with a maximum of the ceiling height and reflex half. Worse, there is no cap on that damage. That said, cometfall is a very powerful spell when in the right circumstances --> outdoors. But it does have a damage cap in pre-epic levels. A 20th level caster can only do 20d6 damage. How? you say. It drops 5' per caster level. 20th level = 100' It causes 2d6 per 10' dropped. 100' = 20d6 It has a damage cap based on caster level. If you can get your caster level up to 30, more power to you. But there's more breaking your pre-epic game than cometfall at that point.
Sancus 06-06-04, 06:58 PM	But it does have a damage cap in pre-epic levels. A 20th level caster can only do 20d6 damage. Ah I see so we may as well just take the caps off all spells at spell level 6 and above since there is an inherent cap, right? Okay, fine with me. No cap on Chain Lightning, no cap on Horrid Wilting, no cap on Delayed Blast Fireball, no cap on Harm, no cap on any 6th level damage spell. Nevermind the ten dozen ways of raising your caster level past 20 before level 20. Archmage, Hierophant, orange ioun stone, prayer bead of karma, that's just the stuff off the top of my head. The list is quite long. If you can get your caster level up to 30, more power to you. But there's more breaking your pre-epic game than cometfall at that point. No kidding. And guess what? All the things that are breaking your game are stupid spells without caps like Holy Word. Caps are essential to spell balance. Making a spell without a cap is very poor design. Really shouldn't encourage poor design with incorrect assumptions like 'your caster level is never more than equivalent to your character level'. And anyway, Cometfall is a 9th level cleric spell even with a 20d6 cap, not 6th, even if you allow it at all.
Seyluun 06-06-04, 07:45 PM	Seeker95: Excuse my poor English. I was trying to say that Cometfall wasn't even close to Harm in term of power, when you consider all aspects of both spell.
DungeonMaster 06-06-04, 08:56 PM	I've been lurking in this thread for some time now, and I have an honest question to ask of the people who bought the complete divine: "What did you expect?" There's a long history supplements to the D&D game dating back to the 1st edition that include munchy, broken or however you want to call it material. I'm curious: did you expect a completely "balanced" book without any problems? if so how long have you been playing D&D? is there a warning section that it's all optional to the perview of the DM? I'm not trying to ignite a flame war, I'm really truly honestly curious.
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 09:28 PM	I've been playing since '87 and I've seen my fair share of broken supplamental books. In fact, I own most of them. What I generally expect is for there to be some good ideas that I will probably have to tone down before I implament them into a campaign I am running. I'm not trying to ignite a flame war Coulda fooled me. :rolleyes:
Sancus 06-06-04, 10:27 PM	Oh, I expected broken crap :) Doesn't mean I can't expect WotC to improve. Complete Divine is better than Player's Guide to Faerun, honestly, for poorly written and/or broken mechanics. Except for the Dweomerkeeper in the web enhancement. That has to win some sort of award.
Mango_stuff 06-06-04, 10:51 PM	I'm sorry, but I find your arguments less than convincing. Thus far they have been nothing but silly anictodes that portray various spell casters in a less than accurate light. look smrtghfosflassa, I was simply tring to add a little humor to the board, I don't believe that's a crime, just a way to lighten up someones day. also, I don't believe it to be senseless, just read over it and think about it... spell casters run into those sorts of events ALLOT. as for It being to powerful, who cares, its not like I've never used a trump card in a game before, nor have I never had one used on me. It's just a game, I'm sure a few broken spells here and there won't ruin it. and If you haven't noticed, my points so far in my arguments have been, let divine casters have their fun every now and then... it couldn't hurt. And shouldn't the game be more about roleplaying, not dmg caps and weather something is unfair. But you do have very good points also, you are very experienced. (Much more than me, I might add) But all I'm suggesting is, don't worry to much about a overpowered spell, I believe the creators of this game have spent more time on this than you good fella's are assuming they did, and I feal they have set the board up right... I'm not worried eitherway.
smrtgmp 06-06-04, 11:51 PM	Originally posted by Mango_stuff look smrtghfosflassa, I was simply tring to add a little humor to the board, I don't believe that's a crime, just a way to lighten up someones day. also, I don't believe it to be senseless, just read over it and think about it... spell casters run into those sorts of events ALLOT. I have no problem with someone binging levity to the boards. I have no problem with what you posted. I just dont find it to be a convincing argument. And when I said that you were portraying spellcasters in a less than accurate light, I was refering to this:Think about it, as an arcane spellcaster progresses their spells advance somewhat like this... BURN, BURRRN, Burn more then poke, BURN BIG, FREEZE, FRY, Kill alot... THEN DIE, FRY EVERYONE... EVERYWHERE, and finally... BLOW UP EVERYTHING... THEN DIEEEE. Where as with a cleric its... OH! I think I can... nope heal, so close to... heal, almost... heal, HEAL BIGTIME... oh.... sorry god... won't happen again, OH! FINALLY I CAN CAST... heal, YES! now I get the chance to DESTRo... heal. And with a Druid its, flower blossem, drink fairy water, run fast like animal, best friends forever little kitty, WHIRL WIND, ELEMENTAL SWARM.... oh! OH NO! I killed a wittle bitty gerbil... NOOOOOOO... powers lost. as for It being to powerful, who cares, its not like I've never used a trump card in a game before, nor have I never had one used on me. It's just a game, I'm sure a few broken spells here and there won't ruin it. In that case, why not make it first level. I sure there will be no reprocussions what so ever. and If you haven't noticed, my points so far in my arguments have been, let divine casters have their fun every now and then... it couldn't hurt. And shouldn't the game be more about roleplaying, not dmg caps and weather something is unfair. The damage caps are there to keep balance between spells of various levels. I have no problem with divine casters being able to do damage. They have a ton of damaging spells. What I have a problem with is a spell that clearly exceeds the damage limit for a 6th level spell. If it were 7th or 8th level, I wouldnt have as much of a problem with it. But you do have very good points also, you are very experienced. (Much more than me, I might add) But all I'm suggesting is, don't worry to much about a overpowered spell, I believe the creators of this game have spent more time on this than you good fella's are assuming they did, and I feal they have set the board up right... I'm not worried eitherway. I never said I thought the designers arent spending time on this stuff. In fact, I think its quite the opposite. However, people often have problems finding faults with their own creation, which is why most stuff is playtested extensively prior to release. Take a look at the back of most of your books and you'll see pages of playtester credits. The complete divine, however, is missing such a list, which leads me to believe in was playtested in house by the creators themselves. Obviously, this is just conjecture.
Senko 06-07-04, 12:57 AM	Personally I might allow it as a arcane spell if I put a cap on it and house ruled it does half bluedgening (massive hunk of rock slamning into you) and half fire (heated up from re-entry) damage. Maybe raise it a level as well. But aside from the fact I have a personal problem with the image of a healer with a bazooka. Most medics don't run around with bazooka's and the cleric already has proficiency in a whole range of weapons and no spell resistance allowing them to wear any armour. There's also the fact that I have difficulty seeing a cleric summoning a meteor from the sky to crush someone it just doesn't seem like a clerical spell.
Mango_stuff 06-07-04, 04:07 AM	Originally posted by smrtgmp In that case, why not make it first level. I sure there will be no reprocussions what so ever Look, I never said to make it at first level, that is just childish, I simply stated that for a 6th level spell, It makes a good trump card. It's a nice spell and should be used sparcly, thats probably why it was given to a cleric/druid. As for the statment I made about "who cares about damage caps" I wasn't saying go make every spell in dnd break the dmg caps. I understand that dmg caps are made for stabilizing the game and are very important for the games success, but in a balanced game things get borring, It's to static. A little bit of unbalance can go a long way.* ;) Bending the rules a little should be more interesting than God awful evil.... Sorry, getting tired, i will finish this post after a couple of hours of sleep.:embarrass
smrtgmp 06-07-04, 05:01 AM	Originally posted by Mango_stuff Look, I never said to make it at first level, that is just childishI thought what said was an obvious use of hyperbole, but I guess not. Next time I'll include a :rolleyes: I simply stated that for a 6th level spell, It makes a good trump card. It's a nice spell and should be used sparcly, thats probably why it was given to a cleric/druid. :confused: And why would a cleric/druid use it sparingly? As for the statment I made about "who cares about damage caps" I wasn't saying go make every spell in dnd break the dmg caps. I understand that dmg caps are made for stabilizing the game and are very important for the games success... Ahh, I see. Now tell me, how was I supposed to derive the above from the following? as for It being to powerful, who cares, its not like I've never used a trump card in a game before, nor have I never had one used on me. It's just a game, I'm sure a few broken spells here and there won't ruin it. and If you haven't noticed, my points so far in my arguments have been, let divine casters have their fun every now and then... it couldn't hurt. And shouldn't the game be more about roleplaying, not dmg caps and weather something is unfair. (emphasis mine) but in a balanced game things get borring, It's to static. A little bit of unbalance can go a long way.* ;) Bending the rules a little should be more interesting than God awful evil.... I disagree. When it's balanced, it's interesting, because you cant just decimate everthing in your path with little to no effort. Furthermore, I have no problem with bending the rules. In fact, I've got a ton of house rules. Thats the best part of this game IMO. Which is why I'll houserule this one too. People are talking about the spell like its a single target spell that can do nothing but attack a creature. This is simply not the case. It has the potential to damage multiple enemies (effects an area of 10' square), makes a trip attempt at all creatures in the area, and could likely devestate small structures. Thats a lot of oomph for a 6th level spell, especially when it does typeless damage and isnt subject to spell resistance.
Mr.Waesel 06-07-04, 06:24 AM	So...give me a convincing argument why damage spells have caps but nondamage spells don't...because I don't understand the "OMFG it has no cap" part of the argument that cometfall is broken.
StonedOne 06-07-04, 07:20 AM	JOOOO! To all of you who are crying because of the "no damage cap": P.S. The maximum damage for falling objects is 20d6, thus it wont scale infinitely, even if there is no listed damage cap THERE IS A DAMAGE CAP!!! So now, let's compare the advantages to the disadvantages Advantages: 1) No SR (BIG ADVANTAGE) 2) No specific damagetyp Disadvantages: 1) Useless in all kinds of dungeons, contucts, places without gravity! ONLY USEFULL OUTDOORS AND IN PALCES WITH VERY HIGH CEILINGS (VERY BIG DISADVANTAGE) 2) Very small area effect, so you will only hit one or two ememies at a time So I think the advantages are balanced compared to the disadvantages. And be hornest, there are not that much outdoorfights, especially against BBEG's! (I never fought a BBEG outdoors) Outdoorfights are mostley fights against many enemies of a low CR, I think, like armies or tribes or something like that, and again the spell is not very useful compared to other Lev6th spells! So, in my opinion, it is okay the way it is!
Draco Argentum 06-07-04, 07:50 AM	Originally posted by Edymnion Any spell with no damage cap is a BAD thing, regardless of level. This is immensely inncorrect. First a simple comparison to SoDs shows that they have no cap. Secong part of the reason multiclassed casters suck so hard is that damage caps means their spells don't do anything.
Mr.Waesel 06-07-04, 08:05 AM	Indeed. I really wonder why there are damage caps at all, since damage spells are the worst type off spell to begin with, and I don't see charm spells having a cap on duration.
smrtgmp 06-07-04, 09:00 AM	So you think a fireball should be able to do 20d6 points of damage?
Mr.Waesel 06-07-04, 09:01 AM	Originally posted by smrtgmp So you think a fireball should be able to do 20d6 points of damage? Exactly.
Senko 06-07-04, 09:26 AM	Why not its what it did (if not more) in 1st and 2nd ed to my knowlege same with lightning bolt.
Shatteredtower 06-07-04, 09:45 AM	Originally posted by Senko Why not its what it did (if not more) in 1st and 2nd ed to my knowlege same with lightning bolt. 1st Edition only. Of course, back in 1st and 2nd Edition, Save-or-Die spells rarely threatened high level characters at all, and you were probably better off picking away at them with your capped damage. And of course there was the fact that your hit point increases after 9th-11th level were insignificant compared to current options. There does come a point at which eliminating the damage cap becomes insane, however, and before you consider it, you probably ought to consider increasing the energy resistance values for creatures that have it, plus prepare to keep scaling up items and spells that grant energy resistance. Even then, the energy damage spells can eventually become Save-and-Die-Anyway vs. anyone without evasion or just the right protection.
K.O.E.G 06-07-04, 11:00 AM	CD doess't say that, in fact, the damage is falling damage, so there wouldn't be a cap.
Vaettyr 06-07-04, 11:08 AM	Ok, I can give one really good reason Clerics shouldn't get a spell like this. They can fight! Seriously, this is a spell roughly on par with Arcane spells. What do Arcane casters have to trade off for the ability to cast it? No armor and a lousy BAB. People complain that all a cleric can do is heal. What's wrong with that? They can wear full plate and fight as well as half the other classes. Isn't healing enough?
roll8dn 06-07-04, 11:41 AM	I hesitate to be the fourth or fifth person to point this out, but there is a cap on damage with this spell: 20d6. Since it is falling damage, the DMG sets out a specific rule to cover something like this, and I quote: "Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects...For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)." (Page 303 of DMG 3.5 ed.) Therefore, there is a cap on the damage of this spell. Looked at from a meta-game physics standpoint, this makes a bit of sense; a falling body can only go as fast as terminal velocity. Now, whether that makes it not broken or not is not my call. I just wanted to point out that there is a limit on the damage. In my opinion, I would allow it in a game that I was running, however, I would make it a higher-level spell, exept for those who have war or destruction as one of their domains (to reflect their deity's focus on destruction, rather than healing). How much higher, well, it hasn't come up yet, so I haven't needed to go to my DM or pass ruling, if I was DMing.
Sancus 06-07-04, 03:37 PM	The falling object cap doesn't apply. How could it? The spell has specific mechanics, which don't resemble the falling damage mechanics at all. It deals 2d6 damage per 10ft, for one thing, not 1d6. And the Comet is 400lbs according to the spell, so if you followed the rules for falling objects it would only deal 2d6 + 1d6/2 caster levels. On second thought, it seems that that might be what they actually meant the spell to do, instead of twice that much damage :) As written, though, falling damage caps have nothing to do with this spell. I have to say that this thread sure has a lot of clueless people in it, though, at this point.
Seeker95 06-07-04, 04:20 PM	Originally posted by Sancus I have to say that this thread sure has a lot of clueless people in it, though, at this point. Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot! :P It is not that folks are clueless. It is that each poster is arguing from a different perspective and with a different desired result. Some folks are trying to prove the spell is broken. Some folks are trying to make the spell usable. Some folks have a problem with the spell as written. Some folks don't have a problem with the spell as written. Some folks are comfortable using existing rules outside the spell description. Some folks are uncomfortable using existing rules outside the spell description. Each group of people are simply frustrated that the other groups refuse to hear what they are saying. The "cometfall is broken" group wants everyone to agree that it is broken. So... Cometfall is broken, if you ignore damage cap guidelines, falling damage guidelines, and pre-epic play conditions. It certainly can cause a lot of un-typed damage if you're 30th level, outdoors, and have all four of your opponents in a 10 x 10 area. The "cometfall is not broken" group wants everyone to agree that it is not broken. So... Cometfall is not broken, if you ignore the exact wording of the spell description, apply a set of guidelines that do not need applied to any other spell in the WotC published rules, apply a dubious set of falling damage, and ignore the possibility that pre-epic charactres can have ungodly high caster levels.
Sancus 06-07-04, 04:47 PM	The second set of assumptions sure sounds a lot crazier than the first. The first set ignores a couple of guidelines -- the second set ignores a number of outright rules and facts. And by clueless, I was referring to the people who can't write a readable paragraph and think that no spell should have a cap ;)
Mr.Waesel 06-07-04, 05:07 PM	Originally posted by Sancus And by clueless, I was referring to the people who [...] think that no spell should have a cap ;) :rolleyes: Instead of pointing and laughing, why don't you give me a good reason spells have caps? AT least Seeker tried with his caster level argument. (But assumed that lots of damage at high caster levels is the problem of no caps, not said caster levels.)
Seyluun 06-07-04, 05:22 PM	I sure love people who can't debate without calling the other side "clueless". :rolleyes: Why not playing a bit with the spell as written and see if it really imbalance the game all by itself?
Frank the Vandal 06-07-04, 06:05 PM	Instead of pointing and laughing, why don't you give me a good reason spells have caps? A reason low level spells (like fireball) have caps could be that if they didn't, higher level damage spells would be far less useful. Usually, apart from damage differences, the advantages that spells like Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball and even Meteor Shower have over Fireball aren't enough to justify the level differences, I think.
d_nychus 06-07-04, 06:20 PM	Eh, so far, the only brokeness I have seen from this spell lies in Epic levels. Since there is no definative cap, the spell will always be a decently good offensive spell, especially when combined with the Empowered metamagic. At Epic levels, this spell as written is CLEARLY worth taking for any slot, and well worth taking using a 8th+ level slot with the Empowered metamagic, since both the base damage and the "worth" of the two additional spell slots grows every other level. However, before Epic level play, I see only a few problems with this spell, aside from the fact it REALLY seems more like an arcane direct damage spell. Personally, I think this spell should be given to the sor/wiz spell list, but that's beside the point. The no SR is easily countered by the fact that it will only hit one or possibly two creatures on average. While it is feasible to nail four tightly packed creatures, the odds are rather stacked against it in game play. Tripping the opponents does not seem any more powerful than setting combustibles on fire, like fire seeds does, so I have no issue with it. It certainly can be used to good tactical advantage in the right set of circumstances, but seems fairly limited to me. Then the rough terrain feature by itself is, again, very good in the right set of circumstances, and utterly ignoreable, or even a hindrance in others. If the spell gave either of these effects, I would just call it neat, but thought nothing of it. However, since the spell gives both, I have to see this spell as being at least slightly better than other 6th level spells. While clearly not potent enough to be worth a 7th level slot, it does seem to be a 6th level and "a little extra." And, again, if this were an arcane spell, I could easily justify the "little extra," but since it is a divine direct damage spell, I have a little issue with that. What I will probably do is simply add a cap of 20d6 and move it to the arcane spell list, or, if I decide to keep it divine, add the cap and remove the trip attempt.
smrtgmp 06-07-04, 06:20 PM	A reason low level spells (like fireball) have caps could be that if they didn't, higher level damage spells would be far less useful. Usually, apart from damage differences, the advantages that spells like Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball and even Meteor Shower have over Fireball aren't enough to justify the level differences, I think. Well said. If you can do 20d6 with a fireball, why learn high level area effect spells? I dont think the spell is horribly broken, I just dont think its appropriate as a 6th level divine spell.
sma 06-07-04, 09:07 PM	Then, why have everyone relearn the same spell again and again ? The Wizard is filling his spellbook with ten different versions of fireball. Why not instead let him use the higher level slots for new stuff instead ? If the low level spells wouldn´t get useless at higher levels, the fighter, who took five levels of wizard, wouldn´t have a repertoire of basically useless spells. Having some spells stop scaling at an arbitrary point does not make them more balanced. It only helps making the combination of multiclassing with noncasters the bad idea it is right now. As ShatteredTower mentioned, energy protections would have to scale appropiately, but that´s about it. Greetings, Sma
Draco Argentum 06-08-04, 12:12 AM	Originally posted by Sancus And by clueless, I was referring to the people who can't write a readable paragraph and think that no spell should have a cap ;) How about you post an arguement rather than make personal attacks. Perhaps its because you don't have an arguement?
Surgo 06-08-04, 12:25 AM	The Wizard is filling his spellbook with ten different versions of fireball. Why not instead let him use the higher level slots for new stuff instead ? If the low level spells wouldn´t get useless at higher levels, the fighter, who took five levels of wizard, wouldn´t have a repertoire of basically useless spells. Having some spells stop scaling at an arbitrary point does not make them more balanced. It only helps making the combination of multiclassing with noncasters the bad idea it is right now. The whole point is to force the wizard to use their higher level spell slots so damage continues to scale with hit points. It's called balance.
smrtgmp 06-08-04, 01:09 AM	Originally posted by sma If the low level spells wouldn´t get useless at higher levels, the fighter, who took five levels of wizard, wouldn´t have a repertoire of basically useless spells. Having some spells stop scaling at an arbitrary point does not make them more balanced. It only helps making the combination of multiclassing with noncasters the bad idea it is right now. Removing the caps would have no benefit for someone who took 5 levels of wizard. His spells are still going to do 5d6 points of damage, because his caster level is still 5. Even if he took the practiced spellcaster feat from CD, his CL would only be 9, which means removing the cap still wouldnt effect him. If you really want to play a fighter mage, pick up one of the many PrCs that basically recreate that cliche, such as the eldrithch knight.
Nick Soapdish 06-08-04, 03:06 AM	Originally posted by Sancus Can anyone think of a reason why this might not be unbelievably broken? Read the small print. *Can only be used against rogues, rangers, and monks. ;) I dunno. Seems close enough though. Bump it up to 8th level and cap the damage to 20d6 and it's good.
Mr.Waesel 06-08-04, 04:57 AM	Originally posted by Surgo The whole point is to force the wizard to use their higher level spell slots so damage continues to scale with hit points. It's called balance. So "balance" is that the wizard's lower level spell slots are useless, while the fighters first attack (which he got at 1st level) is still as powerful as it was? Why does a wizard need to spend more resources to maintain status quo?
Karl of Mystra 06-08-04, 05:20 AM	After a revision of the Complete Warrior and the Complete Divine: n=3 I admit that there are a lot of broken material. A LOT. If the n.5 edition was released to fix the n.0 one, then the overpowering material given in those books can only mean one thing: Invasion. Errrr..... I mean, a n.75 edition that would fix the horribly broken n.5. But after the "new-balanced" n.75 core books, they will release new books for warriors, arcane users, divine, etc, which will be full of great for the ones who use it / broken for the ones who not. Then there will not be more choice than releasing the all-new n+1 edition. Thus, n=n+1 goto 3rd line. /* Please, someone tell me that i'm wrong. I tried to put a break to somehow get out of the loop but, without stoping play D&D or using any random edition, I don't see how */
bitnine 06-08-04, 05:40 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel So "balance" is that the wizard's lower level spell slots are useless, while the fighters first attack (which he got at 1st level) is still as powerful as it was? Why does a wizard need to spend more resources to maintain status quo? Damn that overpowered fighter! Quickly, we must remove the damage cap so that wizards can hope to match his potential instead of having to use higher level spells!
Kem 06-08-04, 05:42 AM	Originally posted by smrtgmp Well said. If you can do 20d6 with a fireball, why learn high level area effect spells? I dont think the spell is horribly broken, I just dont think its appropriate as a 6th level divine spell. They work quicker or have better overall effects or have harder to make saves. DBF has a save of 17+Mod, Fireball has a save of 13+Mod. DBF can be delayed. Fireball cannot. DBF should do 1d6+1, but was changed to 1d6 :( Oh yeah, I think they read the falling rules wrong and it should be 2d6 + 1d6/Level. Otherwise why would they state the weight if not to conform to some rule in regards to weight. Meteor Swarm doesn't have a weight for the Meteors, why does cometfall?
bitnine 06-08-04, 05:48 AM	Originally posted by Kem Meteor Swarm doesn't have a weight for the Meteors, why does cometfall? Maybe for the weight of the remaining rubble in case it matters? 400 pounds of rubble could possibly have its own impact on things.
Mango_stuff 06-09-04, 03:02 AM	another reason for it being a lower level spell is its easier to save against, and with many monsters in the game with special abilities that, if they save, they take no dmg instead of the normal half dmg, thus the reflex save in this spell has its very important place. also, sence it is basicaly a 1d6 per lvl spell with no cap, players definatly wan't to use it, but if people just start going trigger happy with the spell, the DM could just as easily force the players to fight inside where it deals 2-3d6, thus forcing them to use some of the spells more affective in such areas. I know you guys don't think that the area affect doesn't hold much of a case here, but nobody can really predict how the enviornment your given is going to come up.
Kem 06-09-04, 03:10 AM	Originally posted by bitnine Maybe for the weight of the remaining rubble in case it matters? 400 pounds of rubble could possibly have its own impact on things. Unless that weight is tied to something in the rules, why say the comet weighs 400 pounds when not all of it will result in rubble, only the matter that remains after it hits? Bits will be in characters, some dust will float away, some will burn up. Not all of it will result in rubble. The amount of rubble should be given not a weight of the comet.
Draco Argentum 06-09-04, 04:32 AM	Originally posted by bitnine Damn that overpowered fighter! Quickly, we must remove the damage cap so that wizards can hope to match his potential instead of having to use higher level spells! A lvl 20 wizard who wastes an action on an uncapped fireball is a moron. The whole thing would work better if the fighter didn't suck though.
bitnine 06-09-04, 05:01 AM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum A lvl 20 wizard who wastes an action on an uncapped fireball is a moron.If he's in a situation where he's up against a tough opponent, yeah, I don't imagine that he should be reaching for his lowest level spells. Tossing out acid arrows and fireballs and the like at very high levels is best done to conserve higher level slots, particularly in less demanding situations.
Mr.Waesel 06-09-04, 05:09 AM	Originally posted by bitnine If he's in a situation where he's up against a tough opponent, yeah, I don't imagine that he should be reaching for his lowest level spells. But it is okay if it's a Horrid Wilting? After all, that's an 8th level spell.
Sancus 06-09-04, 05:09 AM	No, absolutely not. He totally wouldn't toss out an uncapped Fireball. He would toss out an uncapped, Empowered, Maximized Fireball, with a caster level greater than 20 from Archmage and/or Red Wizard =) a 20d6 or more fireball suddenly becomes 120 damage for a 6th level slot, more than twice the average damage of chain lightning... then it becomes 155 average damage, empowered, which is 40 more average damage than Meteor Swarm!!
bitnine 06-09-04, 05:14 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel But it is okay if it's a Horrid Wilting? After all, that's an 8th level spell. Yes, that's fine. Horrid Wilting is my idea of perfect spell effectiveness for its level. And he'll obviously follow up with a Polar Ray. Wait. I think that might be the thing where I say the opposite of what I mean. Whasicallit.
Ryll 06-09-04, 05:24 AM	Originally posted by Sancus No, absolutely not. He totally wouldn't toss out an uncapped Fireball. He would toss out an uncapped, Empowered, Maximized Fireball, with a caster level greater than 20 from Archmage and/or Red Wizard =) a 20d6 or more fireball suddenly becomes 120 damage for a 6th level slot, more than twice the average damage of chain lightning... then it becomes 155 average damage, empowered, which is 40 more average damage than Meteor Swarm!! It is only three slots to empower and maximize a spell?
Sancus 06-09-04, 05:37 AM	no, it's three slots to maximize, then two to empower. Which still leaves you with an 8th level spell that is making Meteor Swarm whimper and cry in the corner(especially when Meteor Swarm's damage is dealt in 4 pieces, and this is dealt in 1).
Mango_stuff 06-09-04, 05:40 AM	NOpe... It's like 7... meahhehehe :rofl: Then again, im using 3.0, I thought that empower was 4, and max was 3?
Draco Argentum 06-09-04, 05:47 AM	Originally posted by Sancus no, it's three slots to maximize, then two to empower. Which still leaves you with an 8th level spell that is making Meteor Swarm whimper and cry in the corner(especially when Meteor Swarm's damage is dealt in 4 pieces, and this is dealt in 1). By the time you've spent two feats your spells had better be kicking some butt.
Sancus 06-09-04, 06:03 AM	They do as-is, with capped spells. The normal expected damage for a wizard or sorcerer is 1d6/caster level. A 20th level wizard with an uncapped fireball and a mere two feats(he gets what, like 11?) can deal more than twice that without even using his highest spell level slots. Wizards and Sorcerers do NOT need a power boost, and certainly not something as ridiculous as uncapped damage spells.
smrtgmp 06-09-04, 07:04 AM	Seriously. And, if you think about it, few classes benefit from the damage caps more than wizards and sorcerers. With their minescule hp totals, they wouldnt survive long if all spells were capable of infinate damage progression.
smrtgmp 06-09-04, 09:48 AM	Originally posted by Kem DBF has a save of 17+Mod, Fireball has a save of 13+Mod. DBF can be delayed. Fireball cannot. And you think that slight increase in power would be worth a spell slot thats 4 levels higher than fireball? I dont. If fireball could do 20d6 points of damage, I guarantee far less spell casters would learn DBF. Originally posted by Mr. Waesel So "balance" is that the wizard's lower level spell slots are useless His lower level spells are far from useless. There are a ton of great utility spells (such as the ever popular fly/improved invisibility combo). Also, lower level damaging spells are still useful for taking out fodder (i.e. large groups of low HD nasties).
Seyluun 06-09-04, 10:16 AM	I agree about the lower level spells still useful at high levels. Prestidigitation, Ghost sounds, alarm, silent image, shield, grease, mage armor, obscuring mist, comprehend language, identify, ray of enfeeblement, Knock, Shatter, enlarge, feather fall, rope trick (rope trick, for god's sake!)... and a LOT more, from all level.
Krelios 06-09-04, 10:26 AM	The more it happens, and the faster it happens, the sooner everyone will be able to spot it. Little bit of outcry from the fanbase, and the pendulem will swing back towards sanity again.As I've said before, those of us who've played in previous editions are starting to see history repeat itself. 2e kitbooks? Player's Option? Combat and Tactics? This same downward spiral of "Powercreep" or "Poor Editing" or whatever else you want to call it is just going to make 4th edition more and more likely as they "streamline" and "fix" everything. It's all a marketing ploy. And before you ask, yes, I do believe that these books are that loosely balanced on purpose.
smrtgmp 06-09-04, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by Seyluun Prestidigitation, Ghost sounds, alarm, silent image, shield, grease, mage armor, obscuring mist, comprehend language, identify, ray of enfeeblement, Knock, Shatter, enlarge, feather fall, rope trick (rope trick, for god's sake!)... and a LOT more, from all level. These are some really good examples of usefull low level spells. For those of you who think a high level mage has no use for his low level slots, try using these more often. Especially grease. I love that spell. Its saved my ass more times than I can count, especially against high level enemy spellcasters, who tend to have horrible reflex saves.
Karl of Mystra 06-09-04, 12:31 PM	I'm with Krelios. More than that, I'm starting to think that there are some people who's getting paid for exposing "unbalanced" rules again and again to make the people stay angry with the rules and hungry for a new edition. I have read those forums for more than a year and I got bored a long time ago of the "this is too powerful!!!" posts. And I have seen some topics stay out of the forums for months just to return again later. There is so much min/maxing that it is no longer funny, if i'm going to play D&D, I'll rather spend my time fighting with WotC to develop the RP. Sense motive for the clerics NOW!!! And diplomacy for everyone!!!! Award XP for roleplaying!!! Reduce the XP for killing at 25%!!!!! When 75% of the XP is awarded for speaking, there will be minmaxers, yes, but they will fight only to be the party's spokesman!!!
smrtgmp 06-09-04, 01:09 PM	*shrugs* I wouldn't put it past them. It would certainly make sense from a marketing standpoint.
DungeonMaster 06-09-04, 01:18 PM	Originally posted by bitnine Yes, that's fine. Horrid Wilting is my idea of perfect spell effectiveness for its level. And he'll obviously follow up with a Polar Ray. Oh man.. that was too funny... I love your sarcasm sometimes bitnine! Horrid wilting should be a d8 and polar ray should be otiluke's freezing sphere at 6th level. Hopefully the designers of the next edition will sort this mess out. Have you seen my spell damage curves before? I think anyone who knows the spell system intricately enough realises there should be caps on damage dealing spells. Metamagic's specific role is to allow the player to push that cap. What's critical is understanding the level at which these effects occur. While a 5th level spell, like cone of cold, should deal in the vicinity of 15 dice of damage to a group of creatures it doesn't do so at 10th level when the spell becomes first available to say a sorceror. However an empowered fireball, which takes up the slot of a cone of cold does do 15d6 damage. The 5th level spell does have a DC 2 higher than the meta 3rd level spell but it's overall "worth" it. So even though fireball or lightning bolt are "capped" the metamagic feat allows you to push that cap and make your spell still very attractive - at least until you reach 15th level at which point the higher cap spell typically takes precedence, as it should. Now this all falls apart when you start adding in spells without caps - the spell just keeps getting better and better with more metamagic applied. In the context of 3.5 where metamagic rods are core this gets even worse. Because a spell does not rise in level when a metamagic feat is applied you can use a relatively cheap wand to pump the damage out of the roof. The cometfall spell as depicted, empowered to an 8th level slot and then maximized using a plain-old "normal" metamagic rod of maximize does ungodly damage. Toss in everyone's favorite bead of karma, an orange ioun stone or two, maybe some PrC levels like heirophant and you're eclipsing just about everything. With a caster level of 30 for sake of argument as originally presented that's 45x6 = 270 un-typed damage reflex save for half for a clerical 8th level slot and no SR. Psycho.
Mango_stuff 06-09-04, 01:22 PM	Originally posted by Karl of Mystra Sense motive for the clerics NOW!!! And diplomacy for everyone!!!! Award XP for roleplaying!!! Reduce the XP for killing at 25%!!!!! When 75% of the XP is awarded for speaking, there will be minmaxers, yes, but they will fight only to be the party's spokesman!!! Good God, Role playing Gives XP!!!! Why do that when you can get XP from... Climbing trees!!! Or lifting rocks repeatedly!! Yah, you have a good point, I'm sick of playing with peeps that neglect the role playing, I want Dialogue Dammit!!!! Well said Karl of Mystra
smrtgmp 06-09-04, 01:24 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Horrid wilting should be a d8 and polar ray should be otiluke's freezing sphere at 6th level. Hopefully the designers of the next edition will sort this mess out. I couldnt agree more. Give me back my d8, damnit! I agree with the rest of what you said as well, BTW.
Twisted Puppy 06-09-04, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by smrtgmp These are some really good examples of usefull low level spells. For those of you who think a high level mage has no use for his low level slots, try using these more often. Especially grease. I love that spell. Its saved my ass more times than I can count, especially against high level enemy spellcasters, who tend to have horrible reflex saves. Vampiric Touch is also handy, and vicious when metamagicked. A very handy spell against another spellcaster is Melf's Acid Arrow. The damage is continuous - 8 points/round for up to 6 rounds if maxed - and forces concentration checks. And Web is just annoying...
Karl of Mystra 06-09-04, 02:03 PM	Yes, and XP for making good plans! And "learning curve", the PCs could gain experience for learning things, for example, how the world really goes, politically or something!!! And perhaps they could even TRAIN!! They could be searching for teachers more than for trolls!!! And reading books could be usefull!!!! Everybody would spend points in Speak Language!! The most useful characteristic would be charisma! And divination will be the most popular magic school! And the combats will be so uncommon that they will be truly epic experiences!! And the mages and the divine casters would have to spend time studing!!! Studing!! I have never seen a wizard studing (besides to learn spells) in all the time that I have played D&D (And that's more than 10 years). And the discussions in the forums will be "my wizo has a higer bonus in knowledge(the planes) than yours!!!". And the clerics will follow their faith !!! Oh, dude, that would be great!!
Draco Argentum 06-09-04, 09:52 PM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster While a 5th level spell, like cone of cold, should deal in the vicinity of 15 dice of damage to a group of creatures it doesn't do so at 10th level when the spell becomes first available to say a sorceror. Aren't you the guy who wants spells to not suck? Cone of cold is a lame duck not a balence standard. Its just like fireball but with worse targeting ability. If I researched a fireball MK II that was exactly like fireball but took a lvl 5 slot and had a 15 die cap would anyone turn it down? Leaving aside metamagic rods on the grounds that they're broken in the first place an emp, maxed fireball has a DC 5 lower than a DBF. Since we're talking a ref save thats a big problem with evasion.
lanilifar 06-10-04, 12:43 AM	Leaving aside metamagic rods on the grounds that they're broken in the first place an emp, maxed fireball has a DC 5 lower than a DBF. Since we're talking a ref save thats a big problem with evasion. Since only about 10-20% of your likely opponents will have evasion, I don't see how it is really a big problem. Although the potential 25% greater chance for them to save is its own issue ; but considering that the increased damage from the feats more than makes up for the half damage on a successful save, I don't really see it being a major issue ~80%-90% of the time.
Kem 06-10-04, 05:27 AM	Originally posted by smrtgmp And you think that slight increase in power would be worth a spell slot thats 4 levels higher than fireball? I dont. If fireball could do 20d6 points of damage, I guarantee far less spell casters would learn DBF. No, but there is added value for learning it AND fireball. Thats 4 levels of heighten and a Delay Feat (+3 Mod) built into that spell. Besides if fireball was uncapped I'd have DBF do 1d6+1/Level instead of 1d6/Level. His lower level spells are far from useless. There are a ton of great utility spells (such as the ever popular fly/improved invisibility combo). Also, lower level damaging spells are still useful for taking out fodder (i.e. large groups of low HD nasties). But why should only utility spells be the worthwhile low level spells? Why hsould a mage who wants to cast fireball be a moron but that same mage who casts Haste is doing a decent job buffing the party?
Mr.Waesel 06-10-04, 06:09 AM	Originally posted by Kem Why hsould a mage who wants to cast fireball be a moron but that same mage who casts Haste is doing a decent job buffing the party? Exactly.
smrtgmp 06-10-04, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by Kem Why hsould a mage who wants to cast fireball be a moron but that same mage who casts Haste is doing a decent job buffing the party? Why quote me and then say this? Did I say a mage casting fireball was a moron? No. I said:Also, lower level damaging spells are still useful for taking out fodder (i.e. large groups of low HD nasties).
DungeonMaster 06-10-04, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum Aren't you the guy who wants spells to not suck? Cone of cold is a lame duck not a balence standard. Its just like fireball but with worse targeting ability. If I researched a fireball MK II that was exactly like fireball but took a lvl 5 slot and had a 15 die cap would anyone turn it down? That I am! However Cone of cold is a good spell when you use the original 3rd edition metamagic system. As a cone spell it can be enlarged at the cost of merely 1 spell slot higher and in 3rd edition metamagic stacks. A doubly enlarged cone of cold is an absolutely collosal area, it's area keeps going up and up and up as levels increase. Depending on the game, this may or may not be significant. At 15th level, because it has a higher cap you're paying the same amount for the empowered fireball as the cone of cold. Likewise a bead of karma (again only in 3rd edition, in 3.5 they restrict those to divine casters... no bias... none at all...) can help you get as much out of the cone of cold as an empowered fireball. By the core rules there aren't that many cold effects and so even though it's not perfect you're going to have to use it to really put the hurt on those fire creatures. In 3rd edition as written in the MM fire creatures take double damage on a failed save. In 3.5 it's 1.5x damage, which is in my opinion not as good but hey. In 3.5 it's area doesn't increase, it can't be enlarged, enlarge wouldn't stack even if it could, you can't use beads of karma as an arcanist, no chance at double damage, it is a complete lame duck. Agreed. In 3rd edition, it's a 5th level spell that can be used intelligently but "as is" the raw spell should probably be 4th level regardless.