Post/Author/DateTime	Post
devinmdp 01-24-05, 06:58 PM	Am I reading this spell correctly? A 3rd level mage can, with 100% certainty, take control of an unintelligent undead of any number of HD with no save allowed? Does anyone else think that's a bit too powerful to have no HD cap at all? Especially now that more powerful unintelligent undead (like the Hulking Corpse) have been introduced from Libris Mortis? Devin
Milkman Dan 01-24-05, 10:56 PM	It's pretty amusing that the Hulking Corpse's flavor text says that "few can command a hulking corpse." Keep in mind, if the PCs can cast it, so can the NPCs. There's also a basic assumption that the DM will try to keep some balance within the campaign. Though not all DMs are perfect. I was quite shocked when what was supposed to be an extremely dangerous quest turned out to be a walk in the park. Our party was supposed to break into a prison and free a paladin that was protesting against the government's Lawful Evil attitudes, and was imprisoned for his beliefs. A simple hide from undead spell enabled us to get past ALL of the guardians, as they were all unintelligent undead. Ooops! Someone forgot to read the Evil Overlord list. :D
Nephlite 01-24-05, 11:15 PM	Am I reading this spell correctly? A 3rd level mage can, with 100% certainty, take control of an unintelligent undead of any number of HD with no save allowed? Does anyone else think that's a bit too powerful to have no HD cap at all? Especially now that more powerful unintelligent undead (like the Hulking Corpse) have been introduced from Libris Mortis? Devin At the end of the spell they attack you unless you are too far away. Duration: 1 min/level. 2 hd/level. There is a saving throw: will negate. range: 25+5ft/2 levels. sr:yes You can control intelligent undead, but after spell ends with duration, they might seek revenge.
Bloodtide_the_Red 01-24-05, 11:26 PM	Sure you can command any mindless undead automaticaly. As for something like the Hulking Corpse, normal game balance comes in. How many Hulking Corpses are in a typical world? Maybe five? It's not like they are on every street corner. And if they were, so a 3rd level wizard could just open the door to his tower and command a Hulking Corpse(that's just standing their in the garden)...then that same world would have Great Wyrms and other such monsters everywhere. BT
Nephlite 01-25-05, 08:34 AM	Sure you can command any mindless undead automaticaly. As for something like the Hulking Corpse, normal game balance comes in. How many Hulking Corpses are in a typical world? Maybe five? It's not like they are on every street corner. And if they were, so a 3rd level wizard could just open the door to his tower and command a Hulking Corpse(that's just standing their in the garden)...then that same world would have Great Wyrms and other such monsters everywhere. BT Hulking Corspes have sucky Will saves?
mbfu3k 01-25-05, 02:51 PM	Hulking Corspes have sucky Will saves? You didn't read the spell description for Command Undead, specifically the part stating that "a nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell."
devinmdp 01-25-05, 03:07 PM	At the end of the spell they attack you unless you are too far away. Duration: 1 min/level. 2 hd/level. There is a saving throw: will negate. range: 25+5ft/2 levels. sr:yes You can control intelligent undead, but after spell ends with duration, they might seek revenge. I wouldn't have a problem if the duration were 1 min/level. It ain't. Check again. It is 1 day per level!! In essence, a wizard can use this spell to circumvent the number of HD of undead he can control. Devin
PhaedrusXY 01-25-05, 04:01 PM	This spell reads alot like Charm Person, except it works on undead. I'd treat it almost exactly the same. If you think this spell is overpowered, then so is Charm Person. The exeption is the part about non-intelligent undead not getting a Will save. But if there were non-intelligent people, I'd guess they wouldn't get a save vs. Charm Person, either. (Wait... maybe that should be a rule. :D )
Nephlite 01-25-05, 07:40 PM	I wouldn't have a problem if the duration were 1 min/level. It ain't. Check again. It is 1 day per level!! In essence, a wizard can use this spell to circumvent the number of HD of undead he can control. Devin I was reading Control Undead...okay, I'll look at Command: Okay so you can control one undead creature. Pretty good. Sr:yes. will save negate: if intillegent 25+5/2 levels Duration: 1 day/level (nice) So Each casting nets you one creature. So yeah you could use it to increase undead you got, but still need to find that undead. Besides Skeletons and Zombies what other undead are mindless?
devinmdp 01-25-05, 08:18 PM	I was reading Control Undead...okay, I'll look at Command: Okay so you can control one undead creature. Pretty good. Sr:yes. will save negate: if intillegent 25+5/2 levels Duration: 1 day/level (nice) So Each casting nets you one creature. So yeah you could use it to increase undead you got, but still need to find that undead. Besides Skeletons and Zombies what other undead are mindless? At the very least, Hulking Corpses. And let's keep in mind that skeletons and zombies can cover a pretty nice range of CR. Devin
SunLancer13 01-26-05, 12:32 AM	This spell is actually really crazy. It's not "the same as charm person" because you can give commands against thier nature and make them kill themselves and they never get a save. And if you find a minotaur zombie in a dungeon or something of that nature at 3-4 level, you're a happy man, cause man that thing can deal some damage/set off some traps like nobody's buisness. The question i have is, what happens when 2 people command the same undead? I would think a caster level test or something of that nature, but that would be a houserule, as wizards would probably say a charisma test. What do you guys think?
mbfu3k 01-26-05, 01:16 AM	The question i have is, what happens when 2 people command the same undead? Definitely an opposed charisma check, as per the Combining Magical Effects section in the PHB/SRD.
PhaedrusXY 01-26-05, 05:12 AM	This spell is actually really crazy. It's not "the same as charm person" because you can give commands against thier nature and make them kill themselves and they never get a save.That's because they are mindless, and hence too stupid to realize what's going on. This is really more of a result of the creatures being mindless, not the spell. If this spell is used on undead that aren't mindless, it works almost exactly like Charm Person. Actually, now that I think about it, Charm Monster should work the same way on mindless living creatures (i.e. vermin), if they weren't immune to it. So yeah, I can kind of see how this spell might be considered overpowered. Of course, the DM has control over what kind of mindless undead the party encounters. Also, if you're wandering around in an area with very powerful mindless undead, it's likely that you'll run into more than one of them. If you're trying to "charm" undead way above the level of what your party could normally fight effectively, you could get into some serious trouble if you encounter more undead than you have Command Undead spells available for. You're also likely to run into intelligent undead and necromancers powerful enough to create undead, either of which will likely be beyond the power of a low level caster to deal with. If the DM puts a single, powerful, non-intelligent undead there as a "gift" to you, for you to command with this spell, it's his own damn fault.