Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkfuries 04-23-06, 03:02 PM	Hello, One quick question: Do celestial animals understand the celestial language? (This would also apply to fiends.) I am creating a 6th level sorcerer with Summon Monster III and I want to communicate with the summoned celestial animals. I haven't found any specific information anywhere. The Celestial template increases intelligence to a minimum of 3, which is defined in the PHB as "humanlike". It seems logical to me that they could understand it, but not speak it. Their limited intelligence would restrict their capacity to basic commands. Since they become magical beasts, Speak with Animals and the Handle Animal skill wouldn't really apply, though Tongues might be appropriate. Thanks very much!
swindy 04-23-06, 03:07 PM	Well in the spell description, it does state that it takes orders from you on the turn it comes into the fight. So, im guessing they would understand you in any language really, whats the point in summoning a celestial black bear, you tell to rip those orcs a new one and it just looks at you with a confounded look upon its face. Im pretty sure you could talk to them in any langauge seeing as you summoned it.
tarkin 04-23-06, 03:21 PM	No. That directly contradicts what the books say. You are SUPPOSED to learn their languages. I.E. If you want to summon celestial creatures, you learn Celestial. It takes 2 freakin' skill points, that's all. If you want to summon lawfull fiendish outsiders, learn Infernal. Chaotic Evil = Abyssal. If you learn all three languages, that costs 6 skillpoints and anyone that won't spend 6 points deserves not to be able to talk to them. It should also be noted that Devils and Demons get telepathy, Angels and Archons get Toungues Ability. So if you summon them you can still communicate without learning their language.
darkfuries 04-23-06, 04:07 PM	Thanks for the replies. My actual question isn't whether or not to speak Celestial, but whether or not the celestial animal understands the language. I am taking Celestial and three of the elemental languages in order to communicate with the summoned monsters, that much was already decided.
Seeker95 04-23-06, 05:08 PM	It really is up to your DM. In my game, celestial animals are still animals. They do not speak or understand languages, despite having the celestial template. In another game I am involved in, the DM says they can understand celestial because he gives them the Int of 3 that comes with the celestial tempalte (I do not raise their intelligence). However your DM handles it is the way you will have to play.
darkfuries 04-23-06, 05:22 PM	Thanks very much, Seeker. Your opinion pretty much mirrors my own conclusion. The Monster Manual descriptions often include a sentence stating what language(s) a creature speaks. So the apparent default is if the creature doesn't have language(s) listed in the description or template, it doesn't typically speak.
RaspK FOG 04-23-06, 08:27 PM	The RAW state that an Intelligence score of 3 is the minimum one has to have so as to be able to speak a language. In general, it seems highly unlikely that a celestial creature can speak the language. It is, in fact, rather clear that celestial creatures do not know the celestial language, since the rules don't say so. One may well rule otherwise, though, but I believe this is part of the problem with low-level summoning spells: unless you can speak to animals, you can only command outsiders and elementals!
Ignatius Metamorphic 04-23-06, 09:12 PM	Quotes from the SRD: From the Celestial Creature Template: Abilities Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3. From "Reading the Entries" Intelligence A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). So, all Celestial (and Fiendish) creatures have an intelligence of at least three, due to the template. All creatures with an intelligence of at least three speak at least one language. That language is common, unless otherwise noted. To answer your question, darkfuries, yes. Your summoned celestial animals will speak common and you can speak with them. Just as an aside, it's a common houserule that Celestial animals speak Celestial and Fiendish animals speak abyssal or infernal. You should speak with your DM about this. Ignatius
Seeker95 04-23-06, 09:29 PM	Ignatius' certainty is inference-based. He is not wrong. But the truth of his statement is debatable. Among the reasons his position is debatable: The ability to understand at least one language does not automatically mean you can speak it. Nothing in the rules prevents your DM from granting that all celestial creatures can speak celestial. Nothing in the rules requires that he allow it. If the plains of Celestia (or whatever else your DM calls them) include speaking animals, great. If they don't, equally great. (Same goes for Fiendish.) In my world, the Celestial version of a creature can speak and understand a language only if the base creature could as well. Your DM's world may very well be different.
darkfuries 04-23-06, 10:16 PM	Thanks very much for your replies. I never expected celestial animals to speak a language. I thought they might understand a language because their intelligence was a minimum of 3, but I assumed it would be celestial. Ignatius, it never occurred to me that they might understand common. Though I looked at Intelligence in the PHB, I didn't think to look at "Reading the Entries" (hindsight being 20/20). It's an excellent (though probably debatable) point. You've all given me a lot of good info. Thanks again!
RaspK FOG 04-23-06, 11:16 PM	It seemed I goofed there; my initial responce would have been to say exactly that, but I failed to look up the proper entry. Thanks for clearing that up! With this background, I believe that they should be able to understand Celestial if anything...
Ignatius Metamorphic 04-24-06, 09:21 AM	Ignatius' certainty is inference-based. He is not wrong. But the truth of his statement is debatable. Among the reasons his position is debatable: The ability to understand at least one language does not automatically mean you can speak it. <snip> Fair enough. I think I was a little too enthusiastic in my last post. Talking celestial dogs are probably out. For 90% of what you want to do with your summoned creatures, it's enough that they understand you. You can give them directions, "Attack that enemy", "Flank that creature", "Smash open that door", "Find the invisible enemy". The only difficulty is when you want information from your summoned creatures. "Go down that hallway, return, and tell me what you find" or "Help me with this skill check". For those options, you'll want to summon creatures that can speak to you. When I played a wizard focused on summoning, I learned every language that any of my summoned creatures could speak (Ignan, celestial, infernal, etc.) so I could speak with them. Ignatius