Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thannin 09-25-04, 10:22 PM	Clearly each divine/arcane casting medium has a self buff spell that can increase one's fighting ability tremendously. If this has been done before please forgive me cleric to hit/hp/damage output:divine power to hit bonus: divine favor size increase:righteous might sorcerer/wizard size increase:polymorph or enlarge person to hit/hp/damage output: tensers transformation to hit/bonus damage:arcane strike or true strikeish shapechange at level 17+ druid to hit/hp/damage output:natures avatar size increase:animal growth+wildshape, shapechange at level 17+ additional to hit/damage:natures favor Now my problem is obviously if you look at the OP boards, clerics and druids take the cake as far as damage output. My reason for putting this here is to compare divine power versus tensers transformation. As asserted on the OP boards, clerics are way more powerful spell list wise AND combat wise. I will now compare divine power and tensers transformation. Divine power: Pros: BAB equal to character level +6 enhancement bonus to strength 1 temporary hitpoint per caster level CAN cast spells while divine powered can eventually be quickened or persistant level 4 spell Con: 1 round per level not much change in bab(3/4ths-full) not many temp hp(but it doesnt matter, see below) ~~~~~~~ Tensers transformation have to be a cleric Tensers Transformation: Pros: +4 enhancement to strength,dexterity,constitution +5 natural armor(does not stack with polymorph or other nonenhancement nat armor) BAB=character level +5 bonus to fort saves, proficiency with martial/simple weapons CON: You lose spellcasting ability for the duration You have to spend 300 gold on a potion each time you cast it duration 1 round/level NO TEMPORARY HP ~~~~~~~ Clearly a cleric can gain shapechange, so the one factor a wizard had over cleric is gone with the animal domain. Can anyone even come up with a reason why tensers transformation is so horrible? An EK/SS would never use it because of the horrible cons of it, and a straight wizard should never lose his ability to cast spells. In 3.0 it was worth it for the empower/bonus hp, but in 3.5 its just a horrible spell. Anyhow, my point is, with the "nerf" of divine favor/righteous might(theyre both still uber), they neglected divine power versus tensers transformation. Also druids are just incredibly overpowered(natures favor- +1 hit/damage per two caster levels, did not get a nerf). Does anyone know of any way to get a petition going to get the loss of caster levels errata'd for tensers? I seriously think that as is its a worthless spell(I play a wizard meleeist with a low BAB(straight wiz/el savant)) and I would never use tensers transformation. The losses are not worth the benefits.
darkwave 09-26-04, 02:53 AM	Not sure I agree that the spell needs change, not saying it doesn't. A part of me LIKES having "underpowered" spells around for once... :D Actually, while I'm coming to agree with the thinking that the Druid needs...something done to rein it in (and the same for Cleric but less so), I would rather that they gently give the Fighter and Ranger classes something. Just a little something. Then let everyone try it out again and see what happens. I wouldn't want whatever was given to cause even MORE waves. :rolleyes: The problem to me for getting anything Wizard/Sorcerer bumped is that some people think that the Wizard is way overpowered (IMNSHO due to lazy DMs :mad: ). I DO believe that the Wizard has lots of power, but it is the EASIEST class to hamstring (painfully) it is almost a joke. Sorcerer is noticeably weaker (in some ways) to the Wizard, but you can't really hamstring it (it is like the fighter of the casting classes). ;)
R-man 09-26-04, 08:15 AM	However remember that the arcane caster if he is willing to take the Xp hit can cast the Cleric and Druid buffs via Limited wish on himself and then use Tenser's Transformation for some serious killing power. The Cleric and Druid buffs don't really stack, but the Cleric buffs and Tenser's do mostly stack.
Thannin 09-26-04, 08:52 AM	My biggest problem with Tensers transformation is that it isnt underpowered, its damn near useless. Most players I know can easily get a 16+ BAB and 9th level arcane spells via eldritch knight and Spell Sword. Also with the lack of temporary hp in 3.5, I looked all over in the spell, it makes a d4 hd caster with a bab=level. Give a cleric divine power and a wizard tensers, who do you think will win in a fight? The truth is that druid's and cleric's need a tone down, and nonspellcasters and wizards need a tone up. Ah well there's always 4.0 ;).
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-26-04, 09:21 AM	The thing is that tenser's transformation isn't made to be an eldritch knight spell. It's made to be a straight wizard spell. They probably took into account that the BaB increase may well be around 9 points in this case. Still though, comparing it with divine power, I agree Tenser's should be a bit more powerful, either that or Tenser's should be a 4th level spell.
Thannin 09-26-04, 10:11 AM	The thing is that tenser's transformation isn't made to be an eldritch knight spell. It's made to be a straight wizard spell. They probably took into account that the BaB increase may well be around 9 points in this case. Still though, comparing it with divine power, I agree Tenser's should be a bit more powerful, either that or Tenser's should be a 4th level spell. I agree, which brings me to the point of trying to figure out how to get it through to the people in charge of errata. Alls they would have to do would be to remove the spellcasting limitation on tensers, and I fully believe as a 6th level spell it would be on par with divine power. As is, its weak sauce compared to divine power, and its a 6th level spell!
Archtyrant Terevoth 10-03-04, 01:17 AM	I agree, which brings me to the point of trying to figure out how to get it through to the people in charge of errata. Alls they would have to do would be to remove the spellcasting limitation on tensers, and I fully believe as a 6th level spell it would be on par with divine power. As is, its weak sauce compared to divine power, and its a 6th level spell! Yeah, if anything, Divine power should have the "no casting" restriction, not tensers. A wizard in melee with his d4 hit dice just isn't much of a threat even with tensers, so it's not all that much of a benefit to him.
SpellMaster 10-03-04, 01:54 AM	Remember, with the +4 Con comes +2 HP per level, which is better than the +1 from the other spells. Mind you, a Con bonus to HP is more dangerous than temp HP, but still. It changes a d4 Hp / level to d4+2 / level.