Complete Adventurer confusion with wands... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complete Adventurer confusion with wands... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DragonsArt
06-01-05, 10:26 AM Ok... quick question about wants...

Using a wand is a standard action, unless the the spell casting time is greater in which case it takes as long as the normal casting time to activate it, correct?

Given that, how would a wand of Golemstrike work? It's one of the wands listed in the Complete Adventurer. Golemstrike is a swift spell that gives you the ability to sneak attack golems for 1 round.

Normally, this spell would be a swift action at the beginning of your turn, then that round of its effects. At the beginning of your next round, it's over.

How would a wand work? And can you target another with the Golemstrike? It's a Personal range spell so does it only activate on the user, or can the person touch someone with the wand?

Is there anything official said about this?
Merestil Haye
06-01-05, 11:24 AM I knew I'd seen this note somewhere. From the Rules of the Game articles on Using Magic Items.Activating Magic Items

Pages 211-215 of the Dungeon Master's Guide explain item activation in detail, and the introductory text for the various kinds of items in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide contains additional information. This section summarizes that material and offers some additional remarks.

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the kind of magic item or its activation method, unless the item description specifically states otherwise (see page 213 in the Dungeon Masters Guide).(Bolding mine)

Thus if a spell takes a swift action to cast, a device that casts that spell takes the same time to activate.

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) is the Rules of the Game series page for further reading.

Edit : On range, no you cannot target another if the range is personal.
Mellowship Slinky
06-01-05, 12:41 PM He's not asking if he can activate the wand as a swift action, he's pointing out a HUGE oversight.

Golemstrike/gravestrike/vinestrike are all swift spells that work for THAT ROUND ONLY. If you use a wand of golemstrike, you can sneak attack golems for that round only, too bad you've used your action for the round.

I think the simplest "fix" would be to have the effects of the spell activate on the start of your next round, it goes against the RAW, but it's an easy fix and I don't see it breaking anything.
Merestil Haye
06-01-05, 12:51 PM Mellowship, you have completely misunderstood the thread.

DragonsArt asked if activating a wand was always a standard action.

I said "No".

To take your example, Golemstrike is a spell that takes a swift action to cast.

Wands of Golemstrike therefore take a swift action to activate. You can activate them on your turn, as a swift action, and then take a full round action attacking your opposing golems on the same round.

Hope that helps.
DragonsArt
06-01-05, 01:06 PM Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is what confuses me. The SRD says standard action for spell trigger and the DMG actually states it takes as long it would normally take to cast to a minimum of a standard action.
Merestil Haye
06-01-05, 01:38 PM DragonsArt, yes I agree. The say the text is written is confusing, because the rule is not where you would expect to find it. It is in the general rules for activating magic items of all types, and is probably found above the text you quoted.

If you go to the SRD on Using Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems) here and scroll down to the heading "Using Items", you will see that it says thisActivating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.in the second paragraph.

This is the general rule to which all magic items of any type adhere, unless the specific item description states otherwise.

The text is in the DMG, page 213, and precedes the rules for activiating spell completion items.

Hope that helps.
DragonsArt
06-01-05, 04:20 PM This is the response, I just got from Customer Service... take it for what it's worth. It seems less abusive this way.

Thank you for contacting us.
Activating the wand is always a standard action, so the spell's effect lasts until the end of your next turn.

Good Gaming!
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Chris L.

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Customer (John Cressman) 06/01/2005 10:04 AM
In the Complete Adventurer, there are wands of spells that are SWIFT spells (ie. Wand of Golemstrike, Wand of Gravestrike, etc.). These spells last for one round.

The DMG states that activating a spell trigger item (wand) is a standard action (or longer if the spell is longer).

So, how long does it take to activate a wand of a swift spell? If it takes a standard action, when does the spell expire? At the beginning of your next turn - which seems useless - or at the end of your next turn?
Draco Light
06-01-05, 09:45 PM The other possibility is that there are no wands of Golemstrike, because of the fact that they don't work. Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually.
djinni
06-01-05, 09:51 PM Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually.
why? put it into a waterflask and the person goes to take a drink and poof they are held...
love potion (potion of charm) what's the point in that and it's a printed item.
the point is you give it to an unsuspecting person or slip them the drink....
DragonsArt
06-01-05, 10:09 PM The other possibility is that there are no wands of Golemstrike, because of the fact that they don't work. Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually.

Given that, how would a wand of Golemstrike work? It's one of the wands listed in the Complete Adventurer. Golemstrike is a swift spell that gives you the ability to sneak attack golems for 1 round.

Since, as I mentioned, there ARE wands of Golemstrike in the Complete Adventurer... I'd have to wonder if you even read the post.
Beamup
06-02-05, 11:43 AM DragonsArt, yes I agree. The say the text is written is confusing, because the rule is not where you would expect to find it. It is in the general rules for activating magic items of all types, and is probably found above the text you quoted.
The thing is, however, that the specific rules for Spell Trigger items override the general rules for all types of items. Especially since they say, as you noted,

Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. (emphasis added)
Well, the item description for general Spell Trigger items does indicate otherwise, as DragonsArt quoted. So they take a standard action according to the general description as well.
Merestil Haye
06-02-05, 12:52 PM Beamup.

By "specific item description" I understand to mean the text that follows an item's name in the listing of magic item. For exampleBoots of Speed

As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.

Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 12,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.That is a specific item description (I chose it because it did have a nonstandard activation speed.)

In any case, this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) makes clear what the intention of the rules are despite the failure to follow their normal text conventions.

Hope that helps.
Beamup
06-02-05, 01:01 PM Beamup.

By "specific item description" I understand to mean the text that follows an item's name in the listing of magic item. For exampleThat is a specific item description (I chose it because it did have a nonstandard activation speed.)
The meaning of "specific item description" is irrelevant to begin with, since that phrase does not appear. "Specific" is not there.

And by interpreting "item description" that way, you are simply wrong in terms of English. The paragraph on Spell Trigger items is a (and, in fact, THE) description of spell trigger items. It IS an "item description" by any possible English interpretation of the term. If there were a specific rules definition, that would be one thing. But there isn't.

In any case, this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) makes clear what the intention of the rules are despite the failure to follow their normal text conventions.
Wrong. Absolutely and totally. It makes clear what one particular person who didn't write the rule thinks the rule says, maybe and maybe not after reading and considering it carefully. (Monte Cook was, IIRC, the primary author on the DMG, not Skip.)

And if you read Skip's rulings at all critically, you'll inevitably find that he not infrequently makes rulings that are directly contradicted by the rulebooks. Sometimes he explicitly says this. More than once he's admitted he was mistaken.

The fact of the matter is, while Skip's rulings are "official," they are are NOT in ANY sense reliable indicators either of what the written rule actually says or of what the person who wrote it intended.
Draco Light
06-02-05, 03:15 PM Since, as I mentioned, there ARE wands of Golemstrike in the Complete Adventurer... I'd have to wonder if you even read the post.

I must've skimmed over that. My apologies.

I've got no problem with allowing the wand to activate as a swift action. But, as written, the item doesn't work. This happens a lot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonsArt 06-01-05, 10:26 AM	Ok... quick question about wants... Using a wand is a standard action, unless the the spell casting time is greater in which case it takes as long as the normal casting time to activate it, correct? Given that, how would a wand of Golemstrike work? It's one of the wands listed in the Complete Adventurer. Golemstrike is a swift spell that gives you the ability to sneak attack golems for 1 round. Normally, this spell would be a swift action at the beginning of your turn, then that round of its effects. At the beginning of your next round, it's over. How would a wand work? And can you target another with the Golemstrike? It's a Personal range spell so does it only activate on the user, or can the person touch someone with the wand? Is there anything official said about this?
Merestil Haye 06-01-05, 11:24 AM	I knew I'd seen this note somewhere. From the Rules of the Game articles on Using Magic Items.Activating Magic Items Pages 211-215 of the Dungeon Master's Guide explain item activation in detail, and the introductory text for the various kinds of items in Chapter 7 of the Dungeon Master's Guide contains additional information. This section summarizes that material and offers some additional remarks. Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the kind of magic item or its activation method, unless the item description specifically states otherwise (see page 213 in the Dungeon Masters Guide).(Bolding mine) Thus if a spell takes a swift action to cast, a device that casts that spell takes the same time to activate. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) is the Rules of the Game series page for further reading. Edit : On range, no you cannot target another if the range is personal.
Mellowship Slinky 06-01-05, 12:41 PM	He's not asking if he can activate the wand as a swift action, he's pointing out a HUGE oversight. Golemstrike/gravestrike/vinestrike are all swift spells that work for THAT ROUND ONLY. If you use a wand of golemstrike, you can sneak attack golems for that round only, too bad you've used your action for the round. I think the simplest "fix" would be to have the effects of the spell activate on the start of your next round, it goes against the RAW, but it's an easy fix and I don't see it breaking anything.
Merestil Haye 06-01-05, 12:51 PM	Mellowship, you have completely misunderstood the thread. DragonsArt asked if activating a wand was always a standard action. I said "No". To take your example, Golemstrike is a spell that takes a swift action to cast. Wands of Golemstrike therefore take a swift action to activate. You can activate them on your turn, as a swift action, and then take a full round action attacking your opposing golems on the same round. Hope that helps.
DragonsArt 06-01-05, 01:06 PM	Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This is what confuses me. The SRD says standard action for spell trigger and the DMG actually states it takes as long it would normally take to cast to a minimum of a standard action.
Merestil Haye 06-01-05, 01:38 PM	DragonsArt, yes I agree. The say the text is written is confusing, because the rule is not where you would expect to find it. It is in the general rules for activating magic items of all types, and is probably found above the text you quoted. If you go to the SRD on Using Items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#usingItems) here and scroll down to the heading "Using Items", you will see that it says thisActivating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.in the second paragraph. This is the general rule to which all magic items of any type adhere, unless the specific item description states otherwise. The text is in the DMG, page 213, and precedes the rules for activiating spell completion items. Hope that helps.
DragonsArt 06-01-05, 04:20 PM	This is the response, I just got from Customer Service... take it for what it's worth. It seems less abusive this way. Thank you for contacting us. Activating the wand is always a standard action, so the spell's effect lasts until the end of your next turn. Good Gaming! To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Chris L. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST Customer (John Cressman) 06/01/2005 10:04 AM In the Complete Adventurer, there are wands of spells that are SWIFT spells (ie. Wand of Golemstrike, Wand of Gravestrike, etc.). These spells last for one round. The DMG states that activating a spell trigger item (wand) is a standard action (or longer if the spell is longer). So, how long does it take to activate a wand of a swift spell? If it takes a standard action, when does the spell expire? At the beginning of your next turn - which seems useless - or at the end of your next turn?
Draco Light 06-01-05, 09:45 PM	The other possibility is that there are no wands of Golemstrike, because of the fact that they don't work. Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually.
djinni 06-01-05, 09:51 PM	Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually. why? put it into a waterflask and the person goes to take a drink and poof they are held... love potion (potion of charm) what's the point in that and it's a printed item. the point is you give it to an unsuspecting person or slip them the drink....
DragonsArt 06-01-05, 10:09 PM	The other possibility is that there are no wands of Golemstrike, because of the fact that they don't work. Yes, it might suck, but it's pretty similar to a potion of Hold Person. Yes, you can make it, but it's a stupid thing to make usually. Given that, how would a wand of Golemstrike work? It's one of the wands listed in the Complete Adventurer. Golemstrike is a swift spell that gives you the ability to sneak attack golems for 1 round. Since, as I mentioned, there ARE wands of Golemstrike in the Complete Adventurer... I'd have to wonder if you even read the post.
Beamup 06-02-05, 11:43 AM	DragonsArt, yes I agree. The say the text is written is confusing, because the rule is not where you would expect to find it. It is in the general rules for activating magic items of all types, and is probably found above the text you quoted. The thing is, however, that the specific rules for Spell Trigger items override the general rules for all types of items. Especially since they say, as you noted, Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. (emphasis added) Well, the item description for general Spell Trigger items does indicate otherwise, as DragonsArt quoted. So they take a standard action according to the general description as well.
Merestil Haye 06-02-05, 12:52 PM	Beamup. By "specific item description" I understand to mean the text that follows an item's name in the listing of magic item. For exampleBoots of Speed As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 12,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.That is a specific item description (I chose it because it did have a nonstandard activation speed.) In any case, this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) makes clear what the intention of the rules are despite the failure to follow their normal text conventions. Hope that helps.
Beamup 06-02-05, 01:01 PM	Beamup. By "specific item description" I understand to mean the text that follows an item's name in the listing of magic item. For exampleThat is a specific item description (I chose it because it did have a nonstandard activation speed.) The meaning of "specific item description" is irrelevant to begin with, since that phrase does not appear. "Specific" is not there. And by interpreting "item description" that way, you are simply wrong in terms of English. The paragraph on Spell Trigger items is a (and, in fact, THE) description of spell trigger items. It IS an "item description" by any possible English interpretation of the term. If there were a specific rules definition, that would be one thing. But there isn't. In any case, this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) makes clear what the intention of the rules are despite the failure to follow their normal text conventions. Wrong. Absolutely and totally. It makes clear what one particular person who didn't write the rule thinks the rule says, maybe and maybe not after reading and considering it carefully. (Monte Cook was, IIRC, the primary author on the DMG, not Skip.) And if you read Skip's rulings at all critically, you'll inevitably find that he not infrequently makes rulings that are directly contradicted by the rulebooks. Sometimes he explicitly says this. More than once he's admitted he was mistaken. The fact of the matter is, while Skip's rulings are "official," they are are NOT in ANY sense reliable indicators either of what the written rule actually says or of what the person who wrote it intended.
Draco Light 06-02-05, 03:15 PM	Since, as I mentioned, there ARE wands of Golemstrike in the Complete Adventurer... I'd have to wonder if you even read the post. I must've skimmed over that. My apologies. I've got no problem with allowing the wand to activate as a swift action. But, as written, the item doesn't work. This happens a lot.