Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 11-21-04, 05:46 PM	I like the Complete Arcane, but there are one or two spots with some pretty serious errors. One is in the description of the GreenStar Adept's "Improved Caster Level" ability. It says to add the character's Green Star Adept class level to his arcane caster level in another class to determine his caster level. However, the Green Star Adept is a semi-caster PRC -- every other level in it increases your caster level in a previously existing arcane class! The result of all this is that you end up counting half of your caster levels twice. For example, a 8th level Sorcerer, 4th level Green Star Adept would normally cast spells as a 10th level sorcerer (8 levels of sorcerer, plus 2 "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class") and have access to 5th level spells (spells known and spells per day as a 10th level sorcerer). Everything is fine so far. But then the Improved Caster Level class ability says to add his GSA levels TO that total for determining caster level! So this character would cast spells as a 14th level sorcerer (though have the spells per day and known spells of a 12th level Sorc). 10 effective levels of sorcerer plus 4 levels of GSA. This has GOT to be an error. It's just silly to say that a Wiz 10/GSA 10, who ignored his arcane training to gain immortality, would cast spells at level 25, getting more duration and more damage dice than a wizard who spend his whole career on the standard path! Moreover, the as-written interpretation does not match with the example text, which has a wiz 5/GSA 4 casting spells at caster level 9. How a 5th level wizard managed to meet the +4 BAB prerequisite for the class is beyond me, but at least the caster level math adds up. I think the Improved Caster Level text should have read "add HALF your class level..." The Effigy Master PRC has the same sort of text, though without the disagreement between rule text and example. It says to add your Effigy Master levels to your caster level to determine how many hit dice of effigy you can control at any given time. This may or may not be an error, since (as above) 4 of the 5 levels in Effigy Master are also boosting your caster level. A wizard 7/effigy master 2 would be able to control 10 HD of effigies if the text is correct as written. This, I'm not sure is an error, because it makes sense that an effigy master could control more creatures than a wizard with the Craft Construct feat who's just built some effigies.
ekotide 11-21-04, 06:05 PM	his caster level doesn't effect the spells he knows, it only effects the amount of damage he can do with say a fireball. so a 10 wiz, 5 greenstar adept can fire off a 15d6 cone of cold instead of a 10d6. He is an effective level 15 caster, which doesn't effect spells known per day and what not
Morwen 11-21-04, 06:06 PM	However, the Green Star Adept is a semi-caster PRC -- every other level in it increases your caster level in a previously existing arcane class! No, it doesn't increase caster level every other level. It increases spells known and spells per day for a previously existing arcane class.
TheScalesOfFate 11-21-04, 06:39 PM	No, it doesn't increase caster level every other level. It increases spells known and spells per day for a previously existing arcane class. Are you saying that the loremaster, Red Wizard, and numerous other arcane prestige classes don't increase your caster level? +1 to previously existing arcane class includes not only spells known and spells per day, but caster level as well.
Morwen 11-21-04, 07:00 PM	Are you saying that the loremaster, Red Wizard, and numerous other arcane prestige classes don't increase your caster level? +1 to previously existing arcane class includes not only spells known and spells per day, but caster level as well. Hm, never mind me. Misremembered something :)
DM Zoc 11-21-04, 07:05 PM	You know the intent of the class; that should be good enough. Even as written, giving up spells per day/ spells known for a higher caster level isn't undeniably over-powered.
Keenath 11-21-04, 10:17 PM	It's ripe for errata, that's all.. I find it irritating when the intent of a rule is not clear until they give a concrete example, especially when the example doesn't even do the same thing the rule said. Trading spells for caster levels may not be overpowered in an of itself, but along with everything else a GSA gets, it's pretty nerfworthy. A GSA is supposed to get 1/2 spell advancement, but full caster levels. Giving him a bonus 5 caster levels is just broken.
Talchar 11-22-04, 01:11 AM	sigh... there is a lot about Complete Arcane that is irritating....but that tale will be told later
SpellMaster 11-22-04, 09:30 AM	I don't yet have the CA, but from your description, might it not be like this? For spells known and per day, you add your previous arcane casting class to the five levels of "+1 spellcasting level" and determine it from there. For caster level, you add your previous arcane casting class to the Green Star Adept class. Essentially, for a 10th level GSA, it's: Spells known/per day: Arcane class + 5 Caster Level: Arcane class + 10 Seems a very easy interpretation to me. The problem with a lot of people is they don't think when they read new material. You know what it's suppose to do, so why bother? Given editing could be better, but they can't find every mistake (Look at the Complete Divine).
Keenath 11-22-04, 09:47 AM	Yes, that's exactly what it is INTENDED to mean, I'm sure. But the "+1 previous arcane spellcasting class" has a very specific and commonly used meaning. It means that, for everything except class features, you act as if you'd taken that many levels in your previous caster class. A class ability that ignores those needs to say so specifically. Otherwise it's ambiguous.
GryMor 11-26-04, 08:48 PM	Spells known/per day: Arcane class + 5 Caster Level: Arcane class + 10 It could be that thats the intent, but it could equally be the intent that it's Spells known/per day as Base class +5 Caster level as Base class +15 which is what the actually wording works out to. Or even both at just +5 GSA has some nasty drawbacks, and it's main benefits don't synergise all that well with Arcane casting (though it might be Gish able), so I don't think the RAW interpretaion is unbalanced per se, just not entirely clear.
Shatteredtower 11-27-04, 03:15 AM	It could be that thats the intent, but it could equally be the intent that it's Spells known/per day as Base class +5 Caster level as Base class +15 which is what the actually wording works out to. Well, it could be if you don't read the example provided under the heading of "Improved Caster Level." Said example clearly states that the character's caster level is equal to Green Star adept level plus arcane spellcasting class level. Three level of wizard plus two as a Green Star adept gives you spellcasting at 5th level, even if you're only limited to the spells you could prepare or use at 4th level. So even if there might be two valid interpretations to the ability, the example provided in the description of that ability decides which interpretation is the correct one.
SpellMaster 11-27-04, 10:48 AM	There's an example?! Then what is this thread about? If the example makes it clear, why the argument?