Complexities with Shatter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Complexities with Shatter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Llathos
08-03-05, 04:20 PM Where's the limit?

Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?

Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then?

Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn?

It's definitely fuzzy. If you take a more liberal interpretation as to what's a viable target, you're left with simply one of the best utility (and offensive) spells out there.

Then combine that with the Warlock's Baleful Utterance doing it every round (and or mixing with Voracious Dispelling for the magic items) and it gets insane...
Jaid
08-03-05, 04:25 PM spellbooks are not, by default, magical items. so yes, unless it's one of the BBBs.

as far as the rest goes, i'm not sure. personally, i'd rather just kill the guy and take his magical gear rather than shattering it anyways.
Llathos
08-03-05, 04:34 PM But the only balancing factor there is greed?

That seems like a potential problem. In instances where the PC is a cleric or paladin or just devout member of a church...and the opponents are likely evil with potentially evil items, they would need to be destroyed anyway.

Besides, you could just cast Make Whole afterwards. If you managed to cast it in time before the dispel magic's 1d4 rounds of supression wore off, would they become magical again pre-shattering?
Puca
08-03-05, 04:34 PM Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?
Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn?
Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then?
Yes, but if the item is held, carried or worn it gets a save.

It's definitely fuzzy. If you take a more liberal interpretation as to what's a viable target, you're left with simply one of the best utility (and offensive) spells out there.

Then combine that with the Warlock's Baleful Utterance doing it every round (and or mixing with Voracious Dispelling for the magic items) and it gets insane...
A solid item weighing less than 10 x caster level in pounds. It is pretty clear, I think anyway.
And, yes, it can be devistating. It probably isnt something youre going to really want do a lot of though, because all that stuff youre breaking is valuable treasure.

But the only balancing factor there is greed?
And a saving throw.

That seems like a potential problem. In instances where the PC is a cleric or paladin or just devout member of a church...and the opponents are likely evil with potentially evil items, they would need to be destroyed anyway. How many times does a character refuse to use an item because the last guy to have it was evil?

Besides, you could just cast Make Whole afterwards. If you managed to cast it in time before the dispel magic's 1d4 rounds of supression wore off, would they become magical again pre-shattering?I dont know if that will work or not frankly.
Anyone?
Llathos
08-03-05, 05:38 PM Scenario:

Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Shatter on fighter's sword. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range.

Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly.

Not good for the fighter.

Of course, this is a bit of a straw man argument, but it's not hard to think of the absolutely devastating results of using this spell.

Especially if a magic item ceases to be magic while being supressed.
Nephlite
08-03-05, 06:55 PM Scenario:

Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Shatter on fighter's sword. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range.

Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly.

Not good for the fighter.

Of course, this is a bit of a straw man argument, but it's not hard to think of the absolutely devastating results of using this spell.

Especially if a magic item ceases to be magic while being supressed.
Correct, i'll help show how deadly it is.
Ahem:
Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Dispel magicon fighter's sword. As another Wizard readied to cast Shatter if the fighter Charges anyone. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range.

Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly.

Not good for the fighter.

And yes, Dispel magic makes amagical weapon mundane till further notice (like suppression ends).
Nom
08-03-05, 07:16 PM Where's the limit?

Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?Yes. But don't forget about the little issues of line of sight and line of effect. shatter is a targeted spell, and you can only target things that you can see and trace line of effect to.

Most casters keep their spellbooks in a bag or backpack, which foils both conditions.
tiercel
08-03-05, 07:29 PM Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?Yes, if it is not itself inherently magical. It still gets a save if attended.

More to the point, you will likely very rarely ever have line of effect to a spellbook (most casters keep them tucked away somewhere, not brandishing them in the middle of combat). [Edit: Whoops, Nom beat me to this.]

Also, spellbooks are treasure. They are theoretically saleable if you don't need them, and if you do have a wizard in the party he probably will at least want to take a look at it to see if it has any new spells first.

Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then?

From dispel magic:If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect.So, yes. It still gets its possessor's saving throw if attended, but you can do this.

Again, you might not want to, in general, because it's treasure -- but you're right, you could, and in the case of the Obviously Big Black Evil Sword of Soul Eating and Baby Killing, you'd probably want to anyway. (Assuming you're not playing an evil campaign.)

Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn?

As long as it falls under the 10 pound / caster level limit (depending on its size, the material it's made of), and it fails its saving throw (for being attended), yes. And, of course, in general it would be treasure, though as has been pointed out this isn't always a consideration.

It's arguable about whether make whole can save you if you repair a suppressed magical item before its magic tries to "turn back on." By a strict reading of make whole, I would lean to maybe not, though I'm not sure; on the other hand, I don't think that it is unreasonable to have a possible counter to the dispel/shatter combo (which is still hardly perfect -- not only do you have to have make whole ready, but you have to use it before the dispel wears off).
Llathos
08-03-05, 10:58 PM I think an especially interesting way to play this would be to hide the 1d4 rounds roll from the players when they dispel the item so they don't know how long they have to shatter, defeat the foe, and cast make whole on the item.

What a circus that could cause... :D
Jaid
08-03-05, 11:25 PM the simplest defense is to make your gear intelligent.

remember, intelligent gear counts as a construct. that means that dispel magic will only suppress abilities, and the sword will still be magical.

in fact, it also makes the item immune to mordenkainen's disjunction.

all of a sudden, intelligent items aren't looking like quite as much of a nuisance, eh?
Bloodtide_the_Red
08-04-05, 05:10 AM Sure a powerful spellcaster could destroy several objects a day, maybe a whole house if he has a wand of shatter. It's not realy all that powerful vs fighters then any other low level wil save based spell. The same fighter from the above post can be Charmed just as easly, for example.

And how about the figter vs the wizard like this......

Fighter makes save, and attacks wizard. With the fighters Melee +9, he has a good chance of hitting that wizards ac of 13(or even a 17 if he has mage armor). Then, when the fighter hits...damage from that masterwork greatsword is 2-12+5, 7 to 17. Just about enough to kill that 5th level wizard(hp-19). Even better is the fighter pulls a Power Attack or gets a crit.

(note the above uses the DMG NPC's)

BT
solbergb
08-04-05, 11:34 AM Level 5 fighters will have a +1 weapon, and it sure as heck won't be mithril, that's just a waste of cash.

Shatter is best used on NON-masterwork stuff, because it usually isn't magical. Unless you have arcane sight running to tell the difference.

Finally anything Shatter can break, Make Whole can fix (although if the thing shattered was a container, make whole won't put the potion or whatever back)

Dispel/shatter can be bad, but if you can get two spells off on an enemy it is usually a better move to just take them out of the fight. The same will save that shatters your sword could be used to leave you laughing on the ground for a half dozen rounds, or paralyze you.

The dispel/shatter thing is talked about, but the only time it would be used in play is by an enemy that didn't care about winning, but only about doing some damage to the hero's long term ability. It is a suicide move, because that is two actions you could be using to win a fight or run away, and actions in combat are precious.
jaelis
08-04-05, 12:29 PM Yeah, I have to say in regards to Nephite's scenario, that if a fighter charges two level-appropriate wizards who have readied actions against a charge, the fighter has a lot more to worry about than losing his sword.
Phrennzy
08-04-05, 01:37 PM Correct, i'll help show how deadly it is.
Ahem:
Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Dispel magicon fighter's sword. As another Wizard readied to cast Shatter if the fighter Charges anyone. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range.

Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly.

Not good for the fighter.

And yes, Dispel magic makes amagical weapon mundane till further notice (like suppression ends).

Heh, the wizard in this scenario didn't need to cast Dispel on the guys sword, cause it's just mithril and masterwork. Sucker play, evil wizard #1.

And the rest of the scenario:

Fighter, now weaponless, finishes charge attacking with spiked gauntlet.

Next round, fighter draws back-up weapon and throws beat down.

I, as DM, had the NPC evil cleric blast the chain shirt from the hero. It was great.

Shatter is no big deal.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llathos 08-03-05, 04:20 PM	Where's the limit? Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster? Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then? Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn? It's definitely fuzzy. If you take a more liberal interpretation as to what's a viable target, you're left with simply one of the best utility (and offensive) spells out there. Then combine that with the Warlock's Baleful Utterance doing it every round (and or mixing with Voracious Dispelling for the magic items) and it gets insane...
Jaid 08-03-05, 04:25 PM	spellbooks are not, by default, magical items. so yes, unless it's one of the BBBs. as far as the rest goes, i'm not sure. personally, i'd rather just kill the guy and take his magical gear rather than shattering it anyways.
Llathos 08-03-05, 04:34 PM	But the only balancing factor there is greed? That seems like a potential problem. In instances where the PC is a cleric or paladin or just devout member of a church...and the opponents are likely evil with potentially evil items, they would need to be destroyed anyway. Besides, you could just cast Make Whole afterwards. If you managed to cast it in time before the dispel magic's 1d4 rounds of supression wore off, would they become magical again pre-shattering?
Puca 08-03-05, 04:34 PM	Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster? Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn? Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then? Yes, but if the item is held, carried or worn it gets a save. It's definitely fuzzy. If you take a more liberal interpretation as to what's a viable target, you're left with simply one of the best utility (and offensive) spells out there. Then combine that with the Warlock's Baleful Utterance doing it every round (and or mixing with Voracious Dispelling for the magic items) and it gets insane... A solid item weighing less than 10 x caster level in pounds. It is pretty clear, I think anyway. And, yes, it can be devistating. It probably isnt something youre going to really want do a lot of though, because all that stuff youre breaking is valuable treasure. But the only balancing factor there is greed? And a saving throw. That seems like a potential problem. In instances where the PC is a cleric or paladin or just devout member of a church...and the opponents are likely evil with potentially evil items, they would need to be destroyed anyway. How many times does a character refuse to use an item because the last guy to have it was evil? Besides, you could just cast Make Whole afterwards. If you managed to cast it in time before the dispel magic's 1d4 rounds of supression wore off, would they become magical again pre-shattering?I dont know if that will work or not frankly. Anyone?
Llathos 08-03-05, 05:38 PM	Scenario: Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Shatter on fighter's sword. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range. Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly. Not good for the fighter. Of course, this is a bit of a straw man argument, but it's not hard to think of the absolutely devastating results of using this spell. Especially if a magic item ceases to be magic while being supressed.
Nephlite 08-03-05, 06:55 PM	Scenario: Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Shatter on fighter's sword. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range. Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly. Not good for the fighter. Of course, this is a bit of a straw man argument, but it's not hard to think of the absolutely devastating results of using this spell. Especially if a magic item ceases to be magic while being supressed. Correct, i'll help show how deadly it is. Ahem: Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Dispel magicon fighter's sword. As another Wizard readied to cast Shatter if the fighter Charges anyone. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range. Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly. Not good for the fighter. And yes, Dispel magic makes amagical weapon mundane till further notice (like suppression ends).
Nom 08-03-05, 07:16 PM	Where's the limit? Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?Yes. But don't forget about the little issues of line of sight and line of effect. shatter is a targeted spell, and you can only target things that you can see and trace line of effect to. Most casters keep their spellbooks in a bag or backpack, which foils both conditions.
tiercel 08-03-05, 07:29 PM	Can you shatter a spellbook of an opposing caster?Yes, if it is not itself inherently magical. It still gets a save if attended. More to the point, you will likely very rarely ever have line of effect to a spellbook (most casters keep them tucked away somewhere, not brandishing them in the middle of combat). [Edit: Whoops, Nom beat me to this.] Also, spellbooks are treasure. They are theoretically saleable if you don't need them, and if you do have a wizard in the party he probably will at least want to take a look at it to see if it has any new spells first. Can you shatter a magical weapon if you cast dispel magic on it first to supress it? A wand or staff then? From dispel magic:If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect.So, yes. It still gets its possessor's saving throw if attended, but you can do this. Again, you might not want to, in general, because it's treasure -- but you're right, you could, and in the case of the Obviously Big Black Evil Sword of Soul Eating and Baby Killing, you'd probably want to anyway. (Assuming you're not playing an evil campaign.) Can you shatter a suit of full plate armor being worn? As long as it falls under the 10 pound / caster level limit (depending on its size, the material it's made of), and it fails its saving throw (for being attended), yes. And, of course, in general it would be treasure, though as has been pointed out this isn't always a consideration. It's arguable about whether make whole can save you if you repair a suppressed magical item before its magic tries to "turn back on." By a strict reading of make whole, I would lean to maybe not, though I'm not sure; on the other hand, I don't think that it is unreasonable to have a possible counter to the dispel/shatter combo (which is still hardly perfect -- not only do you have to have make whole ready, but you have to use it before the dispel wears off).
Llathos 08-03-05, 10:58 PM	I think an especially interesting way to play this would be to hide the 1d4 rounds roll from the players when they dispel the item so they don't know how long they have to shatter, defeat the foe, and cast make whole on the item. What a circus that could cause... :D
Jaid 08-03-05, 11:25 PM	the simplest defense is to make your gear intelligent. remember, intelligent gear counts as a construct. that means that dispel magic will only suppress abilities, and the sword will still be magical. in fact, it also makes the item immune to mordenkainen's disjunction. all of a sudden, intelligent items aren't looking like quite as much of a nuisance, eh?
Bloodtide_the_Red 08-04-05, 05:10 AM	Sure a powerful spellcaster could destroy several objects a day, maybe a whole house if he has a wand of shatter. It's not realy all that powerful vs fighters then any other low level wil save based spell. The same fighter from the above post can be Charmed just as easly, for example. And how about the figter vs the wizard like this...... Fighter makes save, and attacks wizard. With the fighters Melee +9, he has a good chance of hitting that wizards ac of 13(or even a 17 if he has mage armor). Then, when the fighter hits...damage from that masterwork greatsword is 2-12+5, 7 to 17. Just about enough to kill that 5th level wizard(hp-19). Even better is the fighter pulls a Power Attack or gets a crit. (note the above uses the DMG NPC's) BT
solbergb 08-04-05, 11:34 AM	Level 5 fighters will have a +1 weapon, and it sure as heck won't be mithril, that's just a waste of cash. Shatter is best used on NON-masterwork stuff, because it usually isn't magical. Unless you have arcane sight running to tell the difference. Finally anything Shatter can break, Make Whole can fix (although if the thing shattered was a container, make whole won't put the potion or whatever back) Dispel/shatter can be bad, but if you can get two spells off on an enemy it is usually a better move to just take them out of the fight. The same will save that shatters your sword could be used to leave you laughing on the ground for a half dozen rounds, or paralyze you. The dispel/shatter thing is talked about, but the only time it would be used in play is by an enemy that didn't care about winning, but only about doing some damage to the hero's long term ability. It is a suicide move, because that is two actions you could be using to win a fight or run away, and actions in combat are precious.
jaelis 08-04-05, 12:29 PM	Yeah, I have to say in regards to Nephite's scenario, that if a fighter charges two level-appropriate wizards who have readied actions against a charge, the fighter has a lot more to worry about than losing his sword.
Phrennzy 08-04-05, 01:37 PM	Correct, i'll help show how deadly it is. Ahem: Party fighter pulls out his mithril masterwork greatsword and charges the an evil wizard. Readied-action Evil wizard casts Dispel magicon fighter's sword. As another Wizard readied to cast Shatter if the fighter Charges anyone. Spell focus feat plus solid intelligence plus spell level = DC of 16-18 range. Level 5 Fighter has a will save base of 1. Giving the benefit of the doubt, he's got a +1 mod to it from a 12 wisdom for a total of +2. So, d20+2 to beat a DC of about 17, and he's got a 25% chance of making it, roughly. Not good for the fighter. And yes, Dispel magic makes amagical weapon mundane till further notice (like suppression ends). Heh, the wizard in this scenario didn't need to cast Dispel on the guys sword, cause it's just mithril and masterwork. Sucker play, evil wizard #1. And the rest of the scenario: Fighter, now weaponless, finishes charge attacking with spiked gauntlet. Next round, fighter draws back-up weapon and throws beat down. I, as DM, had the NPC evil cleric blast the chain shirt from the hero. It was great. Shatter is no big deal.