Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 11-24-05, 12:18 AM	Alright, I've never really played magic users and I've wondered about components. It says unless they specifically cost something, you aren't to worry about it, yet... #1. Some of these components are heavy. A lodestone with a tuning fork with a handful of crystal marbles plus bags of gold/silver/iron/platinum dust etc etc etc and eventually the weight would add up. Wouldn't you think it'd need to be kept track of? #2. Does the component get used up when you cast (and I'm talking in general terms. I know some cannot be used again, like gems to animate dead)? Or can you just keep using the same bat guano with your fireballs? #3. Some of these components are rather exotic. When the character learns a new spell with a component they don't have, wouldn't they have to find the component? And if so, what if the character is not nearby a place that you could readily buy it from? #4. What is to keep someone from pickpocketing the stuff, or if you are taken prisoner, from having it just plain out removed from your person? Does this render you unable to cast? #5. Can Creation (Minor/Major) and Fabricate results be used as components? The reason I ask is that I am starting a campaign that the majority of the time will take place way out in the unexplored artic wilderness. They will come across a few places that 'may' have what they need, but its unlikely. I mean, where are they going to find, for example, a... #1. Ghoul's lair (ghoul touch) unless I introduce them to a ghoul (which I didn't plan on). #2. Miniature hearing trumpet (detect scrying) #3. Grasshopper's leg (jump) or honeycomb (magic mouth) in the middle of the frigid land devoid of most insects. #4. Dragon blood of any kind, much less black dragon blood (Mnemonic Enhancer) in a normal campaign? In this world there are no dragons at all, but even if there were, how do you just happen to come across the blood of an evil dragon unless you sick it on them? #5. Cameleon skin (Obscure Object) unless you are visiting the tropics? #6. Live spider (spider climb)... err, where have you been keeping this live spider? #7. Snake's tongue (Suggestion), again, in the artic. #8. Tentacle from octopus or squid (black tentacles) in any game that doesn't take place by the sea?
ShinAkuma2 11-24-05, 12:39 AM	Material (M) A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. It's assumed that, when you buy a spell component pouch, it has all of the components you need to cast your spells, unless that component specifically is listed as having a cost. When you cast the spell, the components go POOF, but worry not! The pouch has more. If you REALLY wanted to, you could force players to buy new pouches every so often, but it should be, like, once every couple of weeks. And yes, removing a spell caster's pouch is often crippling. ...Does that sound dirty?
Solarious 11-24-05, 12:55 AM	The game assumes that there are professionals who stock up on spell components and make killings off them. There's probably an entire industry around it, if you think hard enough about it. It would only make sense you would buy components for the spells on the scrolls you're buying for scribing, and that you'd stock up early on the components for spells that you're researching, in case of a breakthrough in the middle of nowhere. This is all neccessary, because tracking individual components for dozens of spells becomes very cumbersome over time. Who wants to track the exact number of bat guano sulfer balls you're carrying? You instead could be having a deep and philosphical conversation about the nature of magic and morality with the party sorceror instead. Because numbers are the enemy! :D
green_yawgmoth 11-24-05, 01:49 AM	This is why I give my sorcerers Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at level 1, like a wizard gets scribe scroll. No need for a component pounch, because anything without a cost can be cast without it! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Milo HoBo 11-24-05, 09:29 AM	Dragons blood isn't the blood of a dragon. I think it's an incense or an ink? :( Anyways, I always looked at it like a bag with true creation that only made material components. :D It doesn't make sense, but most people don't really care about that. Low magic must have it tough.
The Vorpal Tribble 11-24-05, 10:08 AM	It's assumed that, when you buy a spell component pouch, it has all of the components you need to cast your spells, unless that component specifically is listed as having a cost. When you cast the spell, the components go POOF, but worry not! The pouch has more. :bored: If you REALLY wanted to, you could force players to buy new pouches every so often, but it should be, like, once every couple of weeks. *grins* They'll probably be in the wilderness for game months. I'm thinking I'll let them start out with the components neccessary for their current spells, plus the spells they plan on aquiring in the next level, but after that they'll have to aquire them the normal way. It would actually be a great way of starting sidequests, specially as I'm likely to be having to change a number of the components to be more geographically feasible (grasshopper leg would become snow hare foot or some such). This is why I give my sorcerers Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at level 1, like a wizard gets scribe scroll. No need for a component pounch, because anything without a cost can be cast without it! Hrmmm, I like that. I think I'll adopt it into mine :thumbsup: Dragons blood isn't the blood of a dragon. I think it's an incense or an ink? lol, nice try :P Says specifically the blood of a black dragon. -=-=-=- I'm also thinking the wizard's spellbook will need to be something non-standard. Anything made of paper isn't going to last long in this wet, snowy world...
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-25-05, 01:23 PM	1.It would actually be a great way of starting sidequests, specially as I'm likely to be having to change a number of the components to be more geographically feasible (grasshopper leg would become snow hare foot or some such). This is a very, very, very bad idea. Unless you like the idea of a sidequest being the main quest of the night. It will happen trust me, or you will simply lose players. It's very anoyying to be told, 'oh, you can't cast that spell because you don't have a grasshopper leg' and have to spend hours of game and real time looking for something like that. Some players may just pick spells with components like dirt, and ask 'Oh,DM is it ok for me to use the dirt at my feet...or do we need a sidequest to find dirt too?' And they will use it against you too. How did that Azer wizard cast black tentacles? Where did he get a tentacle? How did that drow wizard cast spider climb? It would be unfair for all the NPC's to 'magicaly' have all thier components. You will be left in the spot..do you make to too easy or too hard. If it will be too easy: they simply walk into town and buy what they need or search the woods...then why bother, your just wasting time. If you make it too hard: Oh sorry nobody in the kingdom has any grasshopper legs for sale and have then take all day tracking down things. It will quickly get to the point of: DM'Guys let go on with the princess quest. Players-'Oh we need to find a snake tounge so the wizard can use his spell first.' It's realy a slam to spellcasters, forcing them to keep track of components, or worse not letting them have any at all. I wonder if you would do the same to other classes? Make the fighter clean and sharpen his weapons every day? Oh he would need to get a new stone and oil and such. How about the cleric, make them spend game time in doing religious acts? Have them medatate? How about rouges, they should have to practice their skills..every day. And if they don't, they lose them. Hey, that sounds good for all classes..practice skills every day. That would work nicely for weapons too. It unfiar that folks know 'all' martial weapons..make then pick only like two that they have practiced with..they rest they just can use, with a big pentialy. 2.The pickpocket/prisoner/loss of stuff is generaly a gray area. And it's one you don't want to go down offen, anyway. Let the players keep their stuff and have fun. It just drags the game down again if you enforce the componets. ''we will go after the evil guy after we find a candle for his spell component', ect. So rather then going on the set quest, they go way off in left feild on silly side quests. 3.And no, magicaly created stuff can not be use a spell components. This is in the spell descriptions(I think). A help or two- 1.In general, you should just assume there is a magic component trade and that the character restocks when they can, off game time. Most traveler inns would also offer this service, and keep a stock of items to sell to wandering spellcasters. This is the 'offical' way to do it. 2.You can say the componets listed are just 'suggestions'. So any bug that can jump is fine for the grasshopper leg. Any dragon monster type blood will do, not just true black dragon blood, ect. If you want to add flavor, you might make the spell a bit diffrent, but don't change much. 3.Spells generaly don't list amounts used..so they can be quite small. So that one hand full of dirt can last a long time, as they only use a tiny finger full per spellcasting. Same with a tentacle, you just nip off an end. BT
Black Mantha 11-25-05, 02:27 PM	#1. Some of these components are heavy. A lodestone with a tuning fork with a handful of crystal marbles plus bags of gold/silver/iron/platinum dust etc etc etc and eventually the weight would add up. Wouldn't you think it'd need to be kept track of? Bags of precious matter are better kept track of seperately, as all components with a cost. The rest is assumed to be part of the listed weight of the pouch. #2. Does the component get used up when you cast (and I'm talking in general terms. I know some cannot be used again, like gems to animate dead)? Or can you just keep using the same bat guano with your fireballs? Material components (M) disappear in thin air, yes. Foci (F) and Devine Foci (DF) are infinatly reusable. #4. What is to keep someone from pickpocketing the stuff? It's a small pouch with dozens of compartments, most of which unsellable. I don't think a pickpocket is going to bother. It can be a good tactic in combat, though. #5. Can Creation (Minor/Major) and Fabricate results be used as components? The Creation spells not, it says so in minor creation. Fabricate with its duration of instantaeous works perfectly well, but you need the same matter for casting, so its usefullness is limited.
The Vorpal Tribble 11-26-05, 10:18 AM	I'm responding to these first... 1.In general, you should just assume there is a magic component trade and that the character restocks when they can, off game time. Most traveler inns would also offer this service, and keep a stock of items to sell to wandering spellcasters. This is the 'offical' way to do it. There may be a magical component trade, but as I mentioned, they are going out into the unexplored wilds of the far south. This is no man's land. They will come across maybe two, perhaps three villages tops, and thats only if they go in the direction I encourage. If they decide to go on elsewhere they may never see a one. 2.You can say the componets listed are just 'suggestions'. So any bug that can jump is fine for the grasshopper leg. Any dragon monster type blood will do, not just true black dragon blood, ect. If you want to add flavor, you might make the spell a bit diffrent, but don't change much. There will be no insects. There will be no dragons. So basically I think I'll go with the mages having to choose Eschew Materials as a feat. How did that Azer wizard cast black tentacles? Where did he get a tentacle? How did that drow wizard cast spider climb? It would be unfair for all the NPC's to 'magicaly' have all thier components. They are extremely unlikely to come across any magic casters while in the wilds. Creatures that can cast, perhaps, I know I'll be throwing in a herd of spellwarped caribou, but actual other mages, no (though casting NPC's of mine would have to search for components). Make the fighter clean and sharpen his weapons every day? Oh he would need to get a new stone and oil and such. Actually, yes. Rust, mildew and other things are very important tasks in a land such as they will be exploring. It even mentions this in Frostburn. The pickpocket/prisoner/loss of stuff is generaly a gray area. And it's one you don't want to go down offen, anyway. Let the players keep their stuff and have fun. I find this 'very' bad thinking myself. I'll turn the argument back on you. If they take the sword away from the fighter (as those who are put into jail are wont to be stripped of weapons), then why would it be fair for the wizard to keep his pouch? If the world is so wizard friendly to have corner component shops then surely people in this world would see a component pouch as something at least as deadly as the double-bladed wareaxe this dwarf is wielding over to the side. Bags of precious matter are better kept track of seperately, as all components with a cost. The rest is assumed to be part of the listed weight of the pouch Which is only 2 lbs. apparently :bored:
Bloodtide_the_Red 11-27-05, 11:13 AM	1.There will be no insects. There will be no dragons. So basically I think I'll go with the mages having to choose Eschew Materials as a feat. No insects in the wild 'no mans land'? What an odd world, because insects are everywhere(just about) on Earth. And dragons live in wild places, not in city townhouses. And it's always a bad idea to force a player to take a feat by changing the game rules from under them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.So if you agree that fighters will have to be penalized too, will you be adding weapon care rules? Say a sharp stone only lasts a week...then being in the 'wild' they can't find a new one...so -1 to hit and damage per day of not being sharp sounds fair, right?(Remember to be fiar you must make their weapon as uselss a you do the spells). And taking away the fighters sword is a bit diffrent then the pouch. The fighter can pick up any sword, any weapon realy, and be good to go. The spellcaster is just about totaly useless with out the component pouch. Well, unless it happens in that wild no mans land...then I guess the fighter will just have to punch(I'm guessing your no insect wild lands woun't have trees or rocks to make weapons from...). -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guess my final tip would be, assuming your not just one of thoes mean power tripping DMs( Wait until they enter the wild and jump up on the table and say 'Ha, you spellcasters are now all useless. You can't cast anything with unless the materal component is something like dirt. Ha! You suck! I rule!) Then let them repick thier spells and or stock up on components. If i were them I'd drop spells like fireball(no bats in your wild lands right?) and take no component spells like Scorching Ray. BT
Chosen of the Dark Sun 11-27-05, 06:28 PM	I told my PCs that they didn't need to carry or use spell components or focuses costing less than 25 GP, and you wouldn't believe how much simpler everything got. I can understand that wizards might need components, but it does add a level of complication to the game.
Teydyn 11-27-05, 06:47 PM	Or you could change the rules for Material Components if you want to have your PC wizards need em: A material component without cost is NOT used up when a spell is cast (its like a focus). For every new spell they want they have to get the material components. Guess my final tip would be, assuming your not just one of thoes mean power tripping DMs( Wait until they enter the wild and jump up on the table and say 'Ha, you spellcasters are now all useless. You can't cast anything with unless the materal component is something like dirt. Ha! You suck! I rule!) Have you read where tribble said "I am starting a campaign"??? Just announce your house rules before anyone chooses a caster, should be no problem.