Component Manipulation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Component Manipulation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Knucklehead
07-14-05, 01:44 PM I was having a talk with my DM and we were discussing my new PC. I was telling him how I do not like the idea of sorcerers casting spells with components. I just don't like the idea of vocalize some arcane phrase or making arcane motions. So I offered him a variant idea.

What if you leave all the game mechanics alone, yet take away the verbal and somatic component and replace it with some alterative. For example instead of chanting some mumbo-jumbo, you eminate a audible sound of some sort. The sound could be relative to the spell, for example a gust of wind could eminate a whisling sound. And instead of a somatic element you simply will it to happen. In doing so you emit some type of visual element again which may be attuned to the spell. Using the same gust of wind example, instead of performing an arcane motion, the air around your body pulsates or shifts like heat rising until finally the spell erupts.

That being said, you would still have the game mechanics of the verbal and somatic component so while you may not need to wave your hands, if you are bound you cannot cast the spell. If you are silenced the spell will not work. People would hear and see the alternate component and still be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell. You could never take advantage of this alternate to cast a verbal spell without sound or a somatic spell without a visual element. You would still be required to take metamagic to gain the silent/still effect.

Is this a fair roleplaying option?
Bopple
07-14-05, 01:53 PM It sounds similar to Surrogate Spellcasting [Savage Species] or Nonverbal Spell [Planar Handbook].
Why not? But your DM might want you to sacrifice some abilities(such as 1 less 1st lvl slot) for that.
Knucklehead
07-14-05, 02:06 PM What do those feats do? Do they take away any element of the verbal or somatic component, or do they just let you bypass racial hindrances?

I'm not opposed to losing something for the alternate, but I would have to gain something. There is no benefit other than RP. You still keep all the hindrances including the ability to detect what you're casting and the opportunity to prevent it. All you're doing is making it cooler. Let the wizards have there symbols and rituals and let the sorcerer act in a more natural chaotic way.
tarkin
07-14-05, 02:09 PM My advice to you is to FORGET about playing a sorceror, you clearly do not want to play one.

Instead, it is obvious to me that you want to play a Psionic character and I strongly suggest you do that instead.

This is a common thing, people seem to think that Sorcerors are mental only, which is not the intention, they are supposed to be self trained Wizards, not psionic creatures.

That said, I will attempt to create some fair feats for you to take in order to balance not speaking/somatic components.
----------------
Problems with your ideas.

V provides three things:

1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human mouth capable of making noise.
2) It notifies people you are casting.
3) It lets people with Spellcraft identifyyour spell.

You have kep issue 2, but ignored issue 1 and 3. Not enough.

S provides three things:
1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human hands capable of making the approriate gestures without hinderances (such as armor, grappling).
2) It notifies people you are casting.
3) It lets people with Spellcraft identify your spell.
------------------

Alternate fair solutions.

Take the following three feats. (two of which I just made up)

1) Eschew Components (As normal)
2) Wind casting feat. Benefit: To cast spells you don't have to actually make sounds, but do need to listen to the natural wind. If you can't hear the wind (are deafened, in silence area) you can not cast a spell that normally has a V component. When you cast a spell correctly, the wind changes sound, audiblly to everyone. Spellcrafters have a -5 penalty to identify which spell you are casting due to the lack of verbal components.
3) Meditative casting Feat: While you no longer need to do somatic components, casting spells whith any metal on your person is difficult and your hands must be clasped together to do so (palm to palm). For every lb of metal on your body, take a -5% Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Spellcrafters have a -5 penalty to identify which spell you are casting due to the lack of verbal components. This stacks with Wind casting.
Zherog
07-14-05, 02:16 PM V provides three things:

1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human mouth capable of making noise.
2) It notifies people you are casting.
3) It lets people with Spellcraft identifyyour spell.

You have kep issue 2, but ignored issue 1 and 3. Not enough.

No, he said Spellcraft still works normally.

That being said, you would still have the game mechanics of the verbal and somatic component so while you may not need to wave your hands, if you are bound you cannot cast the spell. If you are silenced the spell will not work. People would hear and see the alternate component and still be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell. You could never take advantage of this alternate to cast a verbal spell without sound or a somatic spell without a visual element. You would still be required to take metamagic to gain the silent/still effect.

Personally, if I were your DM, I'd totally allow this. All you're doing is changing the flavor. I like flavor. I'd say go for it.
Knucklehead
07-14-05, 02:29 PM I was actually debating playing a psion for that exact reason. The reason I want to stay with sorcerer is because the concept is a sorcerer with an air bloodline (from Dragon). I like the idea of a natural spellcaster, and I get a weird taste in my mouth when I try to force that into a psion just to eliminate the component aspect. Then I considered how much weaker a psion is compared to a sorcerer and the idea came back to my original post.

Problems with your ideas.
I tried to make it clear in my original post that all the things you mentioned would still be a problem. If you are a mute, get a feat, because this alternate will not help you. I stated you would still be able to use spellcraft and I stated that you would still alert people that you are casting. Everything that you listed the V and S provide are still there, you just make it different for the norm.

How about burning a feat like Spell Thematics that would let you alter your somatic and verbal component to where they are not perceived as gesturing and speaking?
Bopple
07-14-05, 02:32 PM What do those feats do? Do they take away any element of the verbal or somatic component, or do they just let you bypass racial hindrances?
It's the latter.
tarkin
07-14-05, 02:51 PM My problem is while he said he would not negate all those things, he seemd to have no idea about how to go about it.

Basically, he is asking us to just ignore logic for way too much.

As a DM I would say: Pick a psionic blood line and play that.
Knucklehead
07-14-05, 03:06 PM My problem is while he said he would not negate all those things, he seemd to have no idea about how to go about it.
Point taken, but I don't see why logic has to be a factor when debating magic. Why doesn't the spell work while bound or gagged? Because, that's why. What can a bard cast the same spell as a wizard without ASF? Because, that's why. How about this, being bound and gagged, being silenced or grappled disrupts the arcane energy the sorcerer uses to cast the spell. That's the simple answer. If you keep the rules in place, and simply add the RP element I fail to see a reason against it.

Would it be easier to convince your DM persona if I took Spell Thematics, thereby burning a feat and allowing for a logic loophole?
Knucklehead
07-14-05, 03:42 PM Unconventional Spellcasting [General]
Your verbal and somatic components are unusual making it difficult for people to know what your casting.
Benefit: you cast spells unconventionally by substituting verbal and somatic actions with an unusual magical flare. Instead of waving your arms and chanting arcane script, instead you emanate magical energy from your person. Spellcraft checks used to identify spells you cast suffer a -5 penalty do to the lack of formal verbal and somatic elements.
Special: this feat stacks with Spell Thematics (MoF). Also note, this feat only changes the visual and audible elements of the somatic and verbal components. The normal restrictions from somatic and verbal components still apply (ie. bound, grappled, silenced, gagged, etc.).
Bloodtide_the_Red
07-14-05, 06:28 PM There is nothing wrong with alternaive components. In fact, most spell don't even say what the verbal and somatic components are for that spell. As long as your not changing the Game Mechanics.

The verbal component is not always weird words. It can be just a sound. It just has to be a sound made with a strong voice(so your verbal component can be a little 'mumm'.).

The somatic component is to always waving hands around. In lots of cases it's just pointing or at least waving your hand in the general direction.(The Star Wars movies are a good example here, you can SEE when a Jedi is using the force in most cases. So if you know what your looking for you could say 'hey he used the force').

As for the other effects, your free to add them to your spells. As long as you don't change how the spell works, gamewise.

BT
sabrewolf
07-14-05, 07:13 PM There is nothing wrong with alternaive components. In fact, most spell don't even say what the verbal and somatic components are for that spell. As long as your not changing the Game Mechanics.
.
.
.As for the other effects, your free to add them to your spells. As long as you don't change how the spell works, gamewise.

As a DM and magi-player i seccond these words.. Feats and Flavour. The Eschew Materials and Spell Tematics feats might be the extra bit to add to the small changes you can do to make said sorceror the way you envision it.

As mentioned, the exact ways of spellcasting are mostly unclear and mayhaps the spellcraft check is right for that, to see the patterns and energies of a spell and underestand it when others simply cant see beyound the spell´s effct..

If the mechanics are not changed more then a lil bit or it´s mostly flavour, then by all means, go for it. :mage:

The verbal component is not always weird words. It can be just a sound. It just has to be a sound made with a strong voice(so your verbal component can be a little 'mumm'.).

I could request (as a DM) that your sorcerer know the four elemental languages or at least of those whose lements you reflect with magic. So any words that you speak - if any really - actually sound like the energies surrounding you.. :D But that´s just one way to tweak rules for flavour towards that end. The way you put it, since you still need a speaking voice and cant cast if muted or silenced, it sounds like flavour only or the Spell Tematics feat.

The somatic component is to always waving hands around. In lots of cases it's just pointing or at least waving your hand in the general direction.(The Star Wars movies are a good example here, you can SEE when a Jedi is using the force in most cases. So if you know what your looking for you could say 'hey he used the force').

Indeed. The somatics can be anything: from drawing energy runes in the air; to manipulating the surrounding energies or gathering them into one point; to simply moving one hand to ´aim´ the effect (even when the spell requires to touch atack).. on that part, since again you said no mechanics change, it´s seems like flavour to me or Spell Tematics, nothing more.. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knucklehead 07-14-05, 01:44 PM	I was having a talk with my DM and we were discussing my new PC. I was telling him how I do not like the idea of sorcerers casting spells with components. I just don't like the idea of vocalize some arcane phrase or making arcane motions. So I offered him a variant idea. What if you leave all the game mechanics alone, yet take away the verbal and somatic component and replace it with some alterative. For example instead of chanting some mumbo-jumbo, you eminate a audible sound of some sort. The sound could be relative to the spell, for example a gust of wind could eminate a whisling sound. And instead of a somatic element you simply will it to happen. In doing so you emit some type of visual element again which may be attuned to the spell. Using the same gust of wind example, instead of performing an arcane motion, the air around your body pulsates or shifts like heat rising until finally the spell erupts. That being said, you would still have the game mechanics of the verbal and somatic component so while you may not need to wave your hands, if you are bound you cannot cast the spell. If you are silenced the spell will not work. People would hear and see the alternate component and still be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell. You could never take advantage of this alternate to cast a verbal spell without sound or a somatic spell without a visual element. You would still be required to take metamagic to gain the silent/still effect. Is this a fair roleplaying option?
Bopple 07-14-05, 01:53 PM	It sounds similar to Surrogate Spellcasting [Savage Species] or Nonverbal Spell [Planar Handbook]. Why not? But your DM might want you to sacrifice some abilities(such as 1 less 1st lvl slot) for that.
Knucklehead 07-14-05, 02:06 PM	What do those feats do? Do they take away any element of the verbal or somatic component, or do they just let you bypass racial hindrances? I'm not opposed to losing something for the alternate, but I would have to gain something. There is no benefit other than RP. You still keep all the hindrances including the ability to detect what you're casting and the opportunity to prevent it. All you're doing is making it cooler. Let the wizards have there symbols and rituals and let the sorcerer act in a more natural chaotic way.
tarkin 07-14-05, 02:09 PM	My advice to you is to FORGET about playing a sorceror, you clearly do not want to play one. Instead, it is obvious to me that you want to play a Psionic character and I strongly suggest you do that instead. This is a common thing, people seem to think that Sorcerors are mental only, which is not the intention, they are supposed to be self trained Wizards, not psionic creatures. That said, I will attempt to create some fair feats for you to take in order to balance not speaking/somatic components. ---------------- Problems with your ideas. V provides three things: 1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human mouth capable of making noise. 2) It notifies people you are casting. 3) It lets people with Spellcraft identifyyour spell. You have kep issue 2, but ignored issue 1 and 3. Not enough. S provides three things: 1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human hands capable of making the approriate gestures without hinderances (such as armor, grappling). 2) It notifies people you are casting. 3) It lets people with Spellcraft identify your spell. ------------------ Alternate fair solutions. Take the following three feats. (two of which I just made up) 1) Eschew Components (As normal) 2) Wind casting feat. Benefit: To cast spells you don't have to actually make sounds, but do need to listen to the natural wind. If you can't hear the wind (are deafened, in silence area) you can not cast a spell that normally has a V component. When you cast a spell correctly, the wind changes sound, audiblly to everyone. Spellcrafters have a -5 penalty to identify which spell you are casting due to the lack of verbal components. 3) Meditative casting Feat: While you no longer need to do somatic components, casting spells whith any metal on your person is difficult and your hands must be clasped together to do so (palm to palm). For every lb of metal on your body, take a -5% Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Spellcrafters have a -5 penalty to identify which spell you are casting due to the lack of verbal components. This stacks with Wind casting.
Zherog 07-14-05, 02:16 PM	V provides three things: 1) It prevents you from casting if you don't have an available human mouth capable of making noise. 2) It notifies people you are casting. 3) It lets people with Spellcraft identifyyour spell. You have kep issue 2, but ignored issue 1 and 3. Not enough. No, he said Spellcraft still works normally. That being said, you would still have the game mechanics of the verbal and somatic component so while you may not need to wave your hands, if you are bound you cannot cast the spell. If you are silenced the spell will not work. People would hear and see the alternate component and still be able to use spellcraft to identify the spell. You could never take advantage of this alternate to cast a verbal spell without sound or a somatic spell without a visual element. You would still be required to take metamagic to gain the silent/still effect. Personally, if I were your DM, I'd totally allow this. All you're doing is changing the flavor. I like flavor. I'd say go for it.
Knucklehead 07-14-05, 02:29 PM	I was actually debating playing a psion for that exact reason. The reason I want to stay with sorcerer is because the concept is a sorcerer with an air bloodline (from Dragon). I like the idea of a natural spellcaster, and I get a weird taste in my mouth when I try to force that into a psion just to eliminate the component aspect. Then I considered how much weaker a psion is compared to a sorcerer and the idea came back to my original post. Problems with your ideas. I tried to make it clear in my original post that all the things you mentioned would still be a problem. If you are a mute, get a feat, because this alternate will not help you. I stated you would still be able to use spellcraft and I stated that you would still alert people that you are casting. Everything that you listed the V and S provide are still there, you just make it different for the norm. How about burning a feat like Spell Thematics that would let you alter your somatic and verbal component to where they are not perceived as gesturing and speaking?
Bopple 07-14-05, 02:32 PM	What do those feats do? Do they take away any element of the verbal or somatic component, or do they just let you bypass racial hindrances? It's the latter.
tarkin 07-14-05, 02:51 PM	My problem is while he said he would not negate all those things, he seemd to have no idea about how to go about it. Basically, he is asking us to just ignore logic for way too much. As a DM I would say: Pick a psionic blood line and play that.
Knucklehead 07-14-05, 03:06 PM	My problem is while he said he would not negate all those things, he seemd to have no idea about how to go about it. Point taken, but I don't see why logic has to be a factor when debating magic. Why doesn't the spell work while bound or gagged? Because, that's why. What can a bard cast the same spell as a wizard without ASF? Because, that's why. How about this, being bound and gagged, being silenced or grappled disrupts the arcane energy the sorcerer uses to cast the spell. That's the simple answer. If you keep the rules in place, and simply add the RP element I fail to see a reason against it. Would it be easier to convince your DM persona if I took Spell Thematics, thereby burning a feat and allowing for a logic loophole?
Knucklehead 07-14-05, 03:42 PM	Unconventional Spellcasting [General] Your verbal and somatic components are unusual making it difficult for people to know what your casting. Benefit: you cast spells unconventionally by substituting verbal and somatic actions with an unusual magical flare. Instead of waving your arms and chanting arcane script, instead you emanate magical energy from your person. Spellcraft checks used to identify spells you cast suffer a -5 penalty do to the lack of formal verbal and somatic elements. Special: this feat stacks with Spell Thematics (MoF). Also note, this feat only changes the visual and audible elements of the somatic and verbal components. The normal restrictions from somatic and verbal components still apply (ie. bound, grappled, silenced, gagged, etc.).
Bloodtide_the_Red 07-14-05, 06:28 PM	There is nothing wrong with alternaive components. In fact, most spell don't even say what the verbal and somatic components are for that spell. As long as your not changing the Game Mechanics. The verbal component is not always weird words. It can be just a sound. It just has to be a sound made with a strong voice(so your verbal component can be a little 'mumm'.). The somatic component is to always waving hands around. In lots of cases it's just pointing or at least waving your hand in the general direction.(The Star Wars movies are a good example here, you can SEE when a Jedi is using the force in most cases. So if you know what your looking for you could say 'hey he used the force'). As for the other effects, your free to add them to your spells. As long as you don't change how the spell works, gamewise. BT
sabrewolf 07-14-05, 07:13 PM	There is nothing wrong with alternaive components. In fact, most spell don't even say what the verbal and somatic components are for that spell. As long as your not changing the Game Mechanics. . . .As for the other effects, your free to add them to your spells. As long as you don't change how the spell works, gamewise. As a DM and magi-player i seccond these words.. Feats and Flavour. The Eschew Materials and Spell Tematics feats might be the extra bit to add to the small changes you can do to make said sorceror the way you envision it. As mentioned, the exact ways of spellcasting are mostly unclear and mayhaps the spellcraft check is right for that, to see the patterns and energies of a spell and underestand it when others simply cant see beyound the spell´s effct.. If the mechanics are not changed more then a lil bit or it´s mostly flavour, then by all means, go for it. :mage: The verbal component is not always weird words. It can be just a sound. It just has to be a sound made with a strong voice(so your verbal component can be a little 'mumm'.). I could request (as a DM) that your sorcerer know the four elemental languages or at least of those whose lements you reflect with magic. So any words that you speak - if any really - actually sound like the energies surrounding you.. :D But that´s just one way to tweak rules for flavour towards that end. The way you put it, since you still need a speaking voice and cant cast if muted or silenced, it sounds like flavour only or the Spell Tematics feat. The somatic component is to always waving hands around. In lots of cases it's just pointing or at least waving your hand in the general direction.(The Star Wars movies are a good example here, you can SEE when a Jedi is using the force in most cases. So if you know what your looking for you could say 'hey he used the force'). Indeed. The somatics can be anything: from drawing energy runes in the air; to manipulating the surrounding energies or gathering them into one point; to simply moving one hand to ´aim´ the effect (even when the spell requires to touch atack).. on that part, since again you said no mechanics change, it´s seems like flavour to me or Spell Tematics, nothing more.. ;)