Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Benedictus 11-23-06, 02:30 PM	Just an idea, but how bad an idea is it? Compound Spell [Metamagic] Prerequisite: Able to cast 2nd level spells When taking this feat the first time the character chooses two spells that they can cast or they can choose the same spell twice. They must be able to cast spells of a level equal to the two chosen spells combined levels. With the compound spell feat they can prepare or cast as a single metamagic spell the two spells as a compound spell of a level equal to the levels of the two spells added together. Further metamagic feats can be applied to a compound spell as normal for any spell. The compound spell is cast as a spell of it's actual level. If Grease and Silence were the component spells of a Cleric Wizard's compound spell then the compound spell would be a third level spell that could be used in wizard or cleric third level slots. The target for the compound spell is the target for all component spells of the compound spell. If one component spell requires any type of attack then all components must be delivered by the same attack. For example an Acid Arrow and a Magic Missile as a compound spell would mean that the Magic Missile misses if the ranged attack for the Acid Arrow missed. If two component spells have areas of affect and their dimensions differ then the compound spell defaults to the smaller dimension so that they are affecting the same target area. The Silence and Grease Compound Spell would affect a 10 foot square as an area. Lightning Bolt and Fireball as components would allow a 40 foot long line of Lightning mixed with Fireball as that is the overlap of the two spells areas of effect. If the component spells allowed saves then the target rolls once and succeeds against all components if they successfully saved against the compound spell. For example the wizard cleric with the grease and silence compound spell has a spell that can be saved as third level spell, but the spell save can be made with Will or Reflex and anyone affected within the 10 foot square area gets to save again each round as per the grease spell. Component spells of the compound spell can be counterspelled as normal but unless the counterspeller has an identical compound spell to use for counterspelling, or a means to counterspell both component spells such as a quickened version of the other component, or working with a partner who counterspells the other component; dispel magic is normally the only means to counter an entire compound spell. Special: This feat can be taken more than once, with different spells chosen each time. In addition, each additional time that Compound spell is chosen as a feat by a character, they may choose to add one more spell to the compound spell. They can prepare any version of the compound spell that includes some of those spells as if they had that particular compound spell, in addition to being able to prepare the full compound spell. For example if a wizard uses their tenth level bonus feat to learn a third compound spell they could combine 4 spells. They might choose to create a compound spell for self-protection with Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Shield, and Protection from Evil. This would be treated as a 5th level spell that included all of these spells. In addition they could prepare any of these spells together as a compound spell. They could use this example compound spell feat to generate and use any of the following compound spells. Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, Shield, and Protection from Evil Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, and Shield. Expeditious Retreat, Mirror Image, and Protection from Evil Expeditious Retreat, Shield, and Protection from Evil Mirror Image, Shield, and Protection from Evil Expeditious Retreat and Mirror Image Expeditious Retreat and Shield Expeditious Retreat and Protection from Evil Mirror Image and Protection from Evil Mirror Image and Shield Shield and Protection from Evil The same spell can only be chosen once or twice as a particular compound spell's components. No spell may be repeated as a compound spell, unless that spell was chosen twice as a component, and then it can only be repeated once.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-24-06, 05:06 AM	It's not bad, but there are spells that do this better, and don't require you to use a feat. I wouldn't take it.
Benedictus 11-24-06, 10:39 PM	Spells that do this? Mnemonic enhancer? Mage's Lucubration? Time Stop? I am not surprised and I might have even seen the spell but I can't think of what spell you mean. Spell research would allow some of the same function but not necessarily better. The feat seemed like such a simple idea to me until I started to try to describe the limits, then it became too complicated. It was just supposed to be a very limited time saver trick, that laddered itself if it were repeated. Adding of spells in the same action is the power of the feat. With eight Compound spell feats an Epic character could cast a compound spell of nine first level spell components and add a quickened compound spell with for example five different lesser orbs spells as it's spell components for fourteen spells in the same round. I was also thinking it should allow that you could use some spells that can have variants like Resist Energy as a spell component more than twice. You would have to change every component so that it would choose from Resist Energy fire, Resist Energy cold, Resist Energy sonic, Resist Energy acid, and Resist Energy electricity. I am also thinking that it might be a better idea to limit spell components to spells with personal range or touch spells with a target of self. I don't really think I would pursue this idea, because the further I take it the worse it looks. It is a can of worms. It just turns into a stinking mess.
Patrick Draken-Korin 11-25-06, 12:11 AM	Another method would be to have Compound Spell to choose a numer of spells whose total spell levels equal the it's caster level. Then, allow the caster to rearange thier which spells have been choosen as compoundable every odd level. Wizard 3, take feat; can choose three level 1 spells (say magic missile, mage armor, shield. 4; select another level 1 spell, (ray of enfeeblement. 5; swap previous level 1 spell, gain one level 2 spell (loose roe, take scorching ray). 6; select roe again (eh, why not). 7; swap roe and the new one for invisibility. 8; select roe again. 9; swap roe, shield and the new one for fireball (fireball & scorching ray or invisibility). 10; select roe again. 11; swap roe, mage armor and the new one for fly (fly & fireball, fly & invisibility & magic missile). 12; select roe again. 13; swap roe the new one for web (fly & web & scorching ray). 14; you get the idea with roe 15; swap roe, web and the new one for phantasmal killer. 17; swap roe, invisibility and the new one for greater invisibility. 19; swap roe, magic missile, scorching ray and the new one for cone of cold. Actually, with this feat, I'd probably never choose a spell above level 3, except perhaps greater invisibility. ------- But other than something like this, the quick customization idea gets messy like you say. Ah, my suggestion is probably pretty bad too. Hmm. I wonder if this would be better as a prestige class ability?
Tenebrous_Sage 11-25-06, 12:20 AM	The spells I was thinking about are Spell Matrix, Greater Spell Matrix, and Lesser Spell Matrix from the Spell Compendium.
Benedictus 11-25-06, 11:20 PM	Thanks Sage, for the heads up on the Matrix trilogy. :) I think I was almost asleep by the time I'd gone through that part of the Compendiium. Patrick? Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Sheild, and etc all on the same target? Shield limits the targets to personal so your caster is going to magic missile themself when they cast the compound spell. So that actually confirms my suspicion that the feat is too confusing to the point of really not being useful at all. Edit: They don't have to include the magic missile in any version they prepare. I told you it was confusing me. You could mix offense and defense in a compound and have a compound that was useless in total form, but because I allowed any partial combinations as uses of the compound spell, you could use the offenses as a combo, and the defenses as another combo. Never even thought of that before. Weird but cool. I do think the idea of a prestige class ability might have potential. I wrote the feat and I still don't like trying to figure out how different component spells would work together. Too confusing is a good enough reason to just call it a dead idea. If it weren't so confusing I suspect there are too many abuses so it would still be dead. Casting two magic missile spells as a second level spell is already embarrassing me as a really bad idea. Way too powerful, even if they both have to share the identically same targets. Too much mileage for a second level spell.
Patrick Draken-Korin 11-26-06, 01:31 PM	Same target? shoot, I missed that part. I guess i didn't read the first post fully before posting :D . I was just thinking cast 'em simultaneously. I was expecting that defence-offence combos where also possible. oops. Yeah, casting the same spell twice may be broken or not balanced with this feat (I think there's already a metamagic feat that does that). What I thought this was, was take several spells, cast them simultaneously, and otherwise cast them as they were. Yeah, and I've found that many bad feats could translate into really cool prestige classes, though you've got to do more work to blance the class.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-26-06, 01:40 PM	You're thinking about the Repeat Spell metamagic feat. There are two easy ways to account for it. You can make it a prerequisite for this feat, or prevent this feat from casting duplicates of the same spell. I wouldn't worry about it though since this feat is going to have a higher modifier than Repeat Spell (usually), and it only applies to the two spells you select when you take the feat (whereas Repeat Spell can be applied to any spell you know).
aziraphale60 11-26-06, 03:24 PM	there's also arcane and greater arcane fusion.