Conditional Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conditional Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seeker95
01-11-05, 03:20 PM From a previous thread, in which a druid has bought a house in the city and delights in destuctive war... as for this simply stop granting him spells, until he spends some time "getting back to nature."This brings me to my question:

Do any of you make divine magic conditional? Ever have a deity refuse to grant the day's allotment of spells?

Last Wednesday, in my weekly campaign, the party cleric (LG Emmisary of Al-Akbar, domains of Protection and Law) killed a nymph who was enthralled by a succubus. In the next encounter, said cleric used curative magic *in combat* on the party member he had known the longest first. The party member new to the group was in worse condition. New gal died as a result. Tomorrow night, the cleric will retire for the evening, awaken, and pray, only to receive nothing. The cleric placed friendship over protection, chose not to use any divination magic to determine the nature of the enemy, and has otherwise been rather wishy-washy in delivering a resolute decision on just about anything.

So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all?

This is not just a "what's a DM to do" kind of question. It is a question on the general nature of divine magic, and its application and implications in the game.
MystErikEry
01-11-05, 03:39 PM Since, regarding Divine Ranks, a deity or demi-god with enough Divine Ranks has the ability to "grant spells" I would say that it is up to the Deity which spells a Cleric can prepare.

Personally, if I were DMing, I wouldn't rule that the Deity simple didn't grant any spells at all to the character... I would rule that certain spells would be unavailable.

For example, if a Lawful Good Cleric with the Protection and Healing Domains keeps using things like Divine Might and crushing bad enemies, without healing the wounded or protecting the weak, I would rule that the Deity simply would stop granting the Divine Might-like spells, and, for example, only allow the Cleric to prepare Cure spells for that day. That way, the Cleric might be more likely to actually do his purpose according to the Deity's beliefs - heal those in need, and protect those who would otherwise be harmed.

If, however, the Cleric still shirked his duties, and simply used other magical items or the Wizard's buffs to fight, and still isn't doing it for the sake of Protection, casting the Cure spells only on himself, I would then cease granting spells and possibly even start shifting alignment...
PureMalice
01-11-05, 03:57 PM In the campaigns that I have run, I've always been quite comfortable playing God. If a divine caster doesn't live up to the rules of her/his faith or the commandments if you will, he/she doesn't get spells. The cleric in question could, in fact, lose all class abilities, just like a paladin. The cleric can atone of course, or find favor with another power.
RaistlinBN
01-11-05, 03:58 PM Seeker,

Personally...I wouldn't *deny* any spells to a cleric. If I were a god, I wouldn't want to drive my worshippers away by leaving them completely bereft of their divine powers when they most needed them. Clearly, up until this point, the cleric has been in good standing with his deity; hence the spell granting. If you're looking to correct the problem without seeming a "bully" I'd recommend granting him access to all of his spells that he prays for, but making them less potent as he drifts further and further away from his alignment and/or chosen domain(s). This will force the PC to puzzle out why his spells just aren't performing up to the level that they used to, and will leave room for some interesting role playing (perhaps a quest to figure out why his magic is beginning to fail him). If the PC does figure it out, kudos to him/her, XP for solving a minor puzzle (in my book), and the eventual strengthening of his spells back to what they used to be. I can't imagine a god cutting off a worshipper completely (except maybe Lloth)...maybe it's not even the god's doing...maybe it's a failure in the connection between cleric and god initiated by the cleric's bad behavior and correctable only through repentance and a desire to reforge a newer and stronger connection with _________ (insert god's name here). Hope this helps.

Raist

*Edit* As a whole, I think it falls within the DM's list of duties to portray gods when needed. I absolutely think divine magic should be conditional...if you follow the Forgotten Realms series, you'll hear arcanists refer to divine magic users as "spell beggars" all the time. A summation: He taketh and giveth away.
ninja1
01-11-05, 04:01 PM I would give them a warning first.

Let them experience a vivid dream where they witness acts that their diety encourages, then they wake with a feeling of remorse at not living up to the standard.

If they continue with their behavior pattern, let it get progressively worse. If/when spells are taken away, I'd make sure they intuitively knew exactly why and what was needed to atone.
Kyuketsukiouji
01-11-05, 04:46 PM So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all?

Definitely. This, as a matter of fact, is a core component in the arcane caster/divine caster balance.

Divine casters get all sorts of advantages over arcane casters for the explicit reasons that, ultimately, they answer to someone else for their powers.

Now, this isn't necessarily something all clerics need constantly obsess over, but as a cleric goes up in level, he is expected to assume his proper position as a representative and exemplar of his diety's beliefs on the Material Plane. The higher the level of power a cleric has, the more his diety pays attention to them, and obviously, the more they are expected to work to further their diety's purpose. If a cleric starts acting in a manner that their diety doesn't approve, the DM is expected to let the player know, and not being granted certain spells is a very good way to have this happen.

In the example you've given, Seeker, I would deny the cleric character any spell he prays for that do not have a use for protecting others. If the character is smart, he should pick up on the theme, and realise he transgressed by allowing one of his charges to perish needlessly.
smrtgmp
01-11-05, 07:58 PM My approach depends on the setting.

For a setting like greyhawk, I like the "warn them first" approach. As was mentioned above, visions in which they witness the displesure of their god are a good way to get the hint across. However, it they fail to rectify the transgression, then by all means deny them their spells. Gods arent going to grant spells to someone who is working agaisnt their intrests. I also think higher level clerics should be held more accountable. With great power comes great responsibility, and all that.

In a setting like Eberron, where the existance of gods is not a proven thing and corrupt clerics are not uncommon, things would obviously need to be handled in a different fashion. Here it doesnt matter if the cleric deviates from the religion's dictums, and opens up several roleplaying options. I'm just dying to play a lawful evil cleric of the silver flame. No one expects the Flamish Inquisition!
Greyman
01-11-05, 08:24 PM Playing god has nothing to do with it. Visitations by divine messengers are but one in-game way to warn a player the character is crossing the line, but it's pure fluff. The DM can implement any method which he chooses to get the message across.

The crunch of the matter is that, godblessed or godless, a cleric has to conform to a Code of Conduct to retain divine abilities. The cleric simply must act in accordance with the faith, or loss them until she atones.

Even in Eberron, where the alignment restrictions have been repealed, this is still true. Lawful evil clerics of the Silver Flame are quite possible, but must continue act on their belief in the flame - or have converted to another faith in secret.
Bloodtide_the_Red
01-11-05, 09:11 PM ......So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all?
Yes. This is what realy makes the divine spellcaster classes special. If the gods are just vague names out there somewhere that have no effect on the character, except what alignment spells they can cast, then clerics are just mages with diffrent spells. This also stops min/max power gamers that just pick a god because of the cool feats/spells/domain ability/ect.
I use the FR gods and know them very well, and in years of gaming I've developed my own ideas about each of them. When a player wants to be a divine caster, it just takes a couple minutes to pick a god for them. Typicaly, they will say what kinda of god they are looking to follow and i'll give them the short list with notes. Overall, I've had little problem with players having their characters play the part.
There is a positive side to the gods too, you have a post-it note on the desk of a higher power. The god can easly take notice of you and help out a bit, and I use this plot hook a lot. I like the idea of 'gods playing chess with mortal lives'. The divine caster also gets the whole religion of folks to call upon.
As for taking away spells....i've never gone down the 'you lose all your spellcasting power' road. A character would have to do a lot to get to that point and ignore lots of warnings. Depending on the god, faith and character set what thoes warning might be, and how they happen. Typicaly, if you attempt to use divine power in a way the god does not like, it will not work. If it's an 'honest mistake' for the character, nothing will happen. If they are way down the slippery slope in the gray, they may get a backlash or some type of damage.
For example, your gods divine power can not be used to heal the mortal enemies of your race or relgion. An elf cleric can't heal a drow, for example, though as the elven gods are chaotic...it good happen if there was a 'good reason'.
I use Dreams, omens, visions, divine messengers and such very regularly for divine spellcasters. Depending on the character, the god and the faith. Many times I've given a character some type of divine giude to set them on the right path.

BT
Seeker95
01-11-05, 09:26 PM My thanks to all for the input and feedback. It has been most helpful.
cwslyclgh
01-11-05, 09:45 PM wow... something I said in passing as an after thought spawned a whole new thread...

anyway... from the coment that got seeker wondering, I obviously feel that divine spell casting should be conditional to an extent... I would only strip all spellcasting ability if the character was doing something that would realy peeve the god in question... but I would (and have in the past) impose penalties of various kinds for miss behavior... such as: The clerics turn/rebuke undead ability only functions at half his normal level until he straightens up, or the cleric can not access her highest level of spells until the situation improves. etc.

If I were to totaly revoke spellcasting previlaiges I would make it take an Atonement at the very least to regain them.
smrtgmp
01-12-05, 02:53 AM Even in Eberron, where the alignment restrictions have been repealed, this is still true. Lawful evil clerics of the Silver Flame are quite possible, but must continue act on their belief in the flame - or have converted to another faith in secret.I'm not sure I agree with you. In Eberron, no one is sure where the spells are coming from. Even godless clerics get spells, and a good follower of a good "deity" can cast [evil] spells. Likewise, the above mentioned evil cleric of the silver flame could cast [good] spells with abondon, and likely would to show how pious he was. In history, religion has often been a stepping stone to power for the moraly ambiguous, and the same is true in Eberron. Just because you dont hold the tennents of a religion dear doesnt mean you arent a member of that religion.
Thelon Fairblade
01-12-05, 08:34 AM IMC, I would allow the cleric to pray for spells.... and then hand him the list of spells he gets instead. The list received should be a pretty obvious message... for example, if your domains are Protection and Healing, perhaps *all* your spells are "Cure X Wounds" and "Protection from Evil".

Keep this up for a number of days that seems appropriate to the length of the transgression. Or start small, and each time it is required, increase the duration of the imposed spell list. The list shouldn't be a "problem" - after all, the cleric chose those domains him-/herself!
PhaedrusXY
01-12-05, 08:44 AM Of course you can do whatever you want in your games, but technically according to the rules on deities they either grant spells to a specific follower or they don't. They don't pick and choose which spells they get, and all this other stuff people have mentioned. And once they've granted that follower spells for the day, they have no control on how the follower casts them. They've already done their part in the deal. This is all covered in the Divine abilities parts of the SRD.

Giving the character some kind of prophetic message in a dream is fine if you want to be nice about it. But just having them wake up one day and not hear a dial tone on the other end when they try to "phone home" is a perfectly legitimate way to handle it as well, and perfectly in line with a strict interpretation of the rules. You could just make this a one day occurance as a warning, and then have them get their spells as normal the next day. Or you could require them to Atone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seeker95 01-11-05, 03:20 PM	From a previous thread, in which a druid has bought a house in the city and delights in destuctive war... as for this simply stop granting him spells, until he spends some time "getting back to nature."This brings me to my question: Do any of you make divine magic conditional? Ever have a deity refuse to grant the day's allotment of spells? Last Wednesday, in my weekly campaign, the party cleric (LG Emmisary of Al-Akbar, domains of Protection and Law) killed a nymph who was enthralled by a succubus. In the next encounter, said cleric used curative magic in combat on the party member he had known the longest first. The party member new to the group was in worse condition. New gal died as a result. Tomorrow night, the cleric will retire for the evening, awaken, and pray, only to receive nothing. The cleric placed friendship over protection, chose not to use any divination magic to determine the nature of the enemy, and has otherwise been rather wishy-washy in delivering a resolute decision on just about anything. So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all? This is not just a "what's a DM to do" kind of question. It is a question on the general nature of divine magic, and its application and implications in the game.
MystErikEry 01-11-05, 03:39 PM	Since, regarding Divine Ranks, a deity or demi-god with enough Divine Ranks has the ability to "grant spells" I would say that it is up to the Deity which spells a Cleric can prepare. Personally, if I were DMing, I wouldn't rule that the Deity simple didn't grant any spells at all to the character... I would rule that certain spells would be unavailable. For example, if a Lawful Good Cleric with the Protection and Healing Domains keeps using things like Divine Might and crushing bad enemies, without healing the wounded or protecting the weak, I would rule that the Deity simply would stop granting the Divine Might-like spells, and, for example, only allow the Cleric to prepare Cure spells for that day. That way, the Cleric might be more likely to actually do his purpose according to the Deity's beliefs - heal those in need, and protect those who would otherwise be harmed. If, however, the Cleric still shirked his duties, and simply used other magical items or the Wizard's buffs to fight, and still isn't doing it for the sake of Protection, casting the Cure spells only on himself, I would then cease granting spells and possibly even start shifting alignment...
PureMalice 01-11-05, 03:57 PM	In the campaigns that I have run, I've always been quite comfortable playing God. If a divine caster doesn't live up to the rules of her/his faith or the commandments if you will, he/she doesn't get spells. The cleric in question could, in fact, lose all class abilities, just like a paladin. The cleric can atone of course, or find favor with another power.
RaistlinBN 01-11-05, 03:58 PM	Seeker, Personally...I wouldn't deny any spells to a cleric. If I were a god, I wouldn't want to drive my worshippers away by leaving them completely bereft of their divine powers when they most needed them. Clearly, up until this point, the cleric has been in good standing with his deity; hence the spell granting. If you're looking to correct the problem without seeming a "bully" I'd recommend granting him access to all of his spells that he prays for, but making them less potent as he drifts further and further away from his alignment and/or chosen domain(s). This will force the PC to puzzle out why his spells just aren't performing up to the level that they used to, and will leave room for some interesting role playing (perhaps a quest to figure out why his magic is beginning to fail him). If the PC does figure it out, kudos to him/her, XP for solving a minor puzzle (in my book), and the eventual strengthening of his spells back to what they used to be. I can't imagine a god cutting off a worshipper completely (except maybe Lloth)...maybe it's not even the god's doing...maybe it's a failure in the connection between cleric and god initiated by the cleric's bad behavior and correctable only through repentance and a desire to reforge a newer and stronger connection with _________ (insert god's name here). Hope this helps. Raist Edit As a whole, I think it falls within the DM's list of duties to portray gods when needed. I absolutely think divine magic should be conditional...if you follow the Forgotten Realms series, you'll hear arcanists refer to divine magic users as "spell beggars" all the time. A summation: He taketh and giveth away.
ninja1 01-11-05, 04:01 PM	I would give them a warning first. Let them experience a vivid dream where they witness acts that their diety encourages, then they wake with a feeling of remorse at not living up to the standard. If they continue with their behavior pattern, let it get progressively worse. If/when spells are taken away, I'd make sure they intuitively knew exactly why and what was needed to atone.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-11-05, 04:46 PM	So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all? Definitely. This, as a matter of fact, is a core component in the arcane caster/divine caster balance. Divine casters get all sorts of advantages over arcane casters for the explicit reasons that, ultimately, they answer to someone else for their powers. Now, this isn't necessarily something all clerics need constantly obsess over, but as a cleric goes up in level, he is expected to assume his proper position as a representative and exemplar of his diety's beliefs on the Material Plane. The higher the level of power a cleric has, the more his diety pays attention to them, and obviously, the more they are expected to work to further their diety's purpose. If a cleric starts acting in a manner that their diety doesn't approve, the DM is expected to let the player know, and not being granted certain spells is a very good way to have this happen. In the example you've given, Seeker, I would deny the cleric character any spell he prays for that do not have a use for protecting others. If the character is smart, he should pick up on the theme, and realise he transgressed by allowing one of his charges to perish needlessly.
smrtgmp 01-11-05, 07:58 PM	My approach depends on the setting. For a setting like greyhawk, I like the "warn them first" approach. As was mentioned above, visions in which they witness the displesure of their god are a good way to get the hint across. However, it they fail to rectify the transgression, then by all means deny them their spells. Gods arent going to grant spells to someone who is working agaisnt their intrests. I also think higher level clerics should be held more accountable. With great power comes great responsibility, and all that. In a setting like Eberron, where the existance of gods is not a proven thing and corrupt clerics are not uncommon, things would obviously need to be handled in a different fashion. Here it doesnt matter if the cleric deviates from the religion's dictums, and opens up several roleplaying options. I'm just dying to play a lawful evil cleric of the silver flame. No one expects the Flamish Inquisition!
Greyman 01-11-05, 08:24 PM	Playing god has nothing to do with it. Visitations by divine messengers are but one in-game way to warn a player the character is crossing the line, but it's pure fluff. The DM can implement any method which he chooses to get the message across. The crunch of the matter is that, godblessed or godless, a cleric has to conform to a Code of Conduct to retain divine abilities. The cleric simply must act in accordance with the faith, or loss them until she atones. Even in Eberron, where the alignment restrictions have been repealed, this is still true. Lawful evil clerics of the Silver Flame are quite possible, but must continue act on their belief in the flame - or have converted to another faith in secret.
Bloodtide_the_Red 01-11-05, 09:11 PM	......So... should DMs "play god" when playing the deities? Should clerics receive their spells based on adherence to the will of their deities? Should divine magic be conditional at all? Yes. This is what realy makes the divine spellcaster classes special. If the gods are just vague names out there somewhere that have no effect on the character, except what alignment spells they can cast, then clerics are just mages with diffrent spells. This also stops min/max power gamers that just pick a god because of the cool feats/spells/domain ability/ect. I use the FR gods and know them very well, and in years of gaming I've developed my own ideas about each of them. When a player wants to be a divine caster, it just takes a couple minutes to pick a god for them. Typicaly, they will say what kinda of god they are looking to follow and i'll give them the short list with notes. Overall, I've had little problem with players having their characters play the part. There is a positive side to the gods too, you have a post-it note on the desk of a higher power. The god can easly take notice of you and help out a bit, and I use this plot hook a lot. I like the idea of 'gods playing chess with mortal lives'. The divine caster also gets the whole religion of folks to call upon. As for taking away spells....i've never gone down the 'you lose all your spellcasting power' road. A character would have to do a lot to get to that point and ignore lots of warnings. Depending on the god, faith and character set what thoes warning might be, and how they happen. Typicaly, if you attempt to use divine power in a way the god does not like, it will not work. If it's an 'honest mistake' for the character, nothing will happen. If they are way down the slippery slope in the gray, they may get a backlash or some type of damage. For example, your gods divine power can not be used to heal the mortal enemies of your race or relgion. An elf cleric can't heal a drow, for example, though as the elven gods are chaotic...it good happen if there was a 'good reason'. I use Dreams, omens, visions, divine messengers and such very regularly for divine spellcasters. Depending on the character, the god and the faith. Many times I've given a character some type of divine giude to set them on the right path. BT
Seeker95 01-11-05, 09:26 PM	My thanks to all for the input and feedback. It has been most helpful.
cwslyclgh 01-11-05, 09:45 PM	wow... something I said in passing as an after thought spawned a whole new thread... anyway... from the coment that got seeker wondering, I obviously feel that divine spell casting should be conditional to an extent... I would only strip all spellcasting ability if the character was doing something that would realy peeve the god in question... but I would (and have in the past) impose penalties of various kinds for miss behavior... such as: The clerics turn/rebuke undead ability only functions at half his normal level until he straightens up, or the cleric can not access her highest level of spells until the situation improves. etc. If I were to totaly revoke spellcasting previlaiges I would make it take an Atonement at the very least to regain them.
smrtgmp 01-12-05, 02:53 AM	Even in Eberron, where the alignment restrictions have been repealed, this is still true. Lawful evil clerics of the Silver Flame are quite possible, but must continue act on their belief in the flame - or have converted to another faith in secret.I'm not sure I agree with you. In Eberron, no one is sure where the spells are coming from. Even godless clerics get spells, and a good follower of a good "deity" can cast [evil] spells. Likewise, the above mentioned evil cleric of the silver flame could cast [good] spells with abondon, and likely would to show how pious he was. In history, religion has often been a stepping stone to power for the moraly ambiguous, and the same is true in Eberron. Just because you dont hold the tennents of a religion dear doesnt mean you arent a member of that religion.
Thelon Fairblade 01-12-05, 08:34 AM	IMC, I would allow the cleric to pray for spells.... and then hand him the list of spells he gets instead. The list received should be a pretty obvious message... for example, if your domains are Protection and Healing, perhaps all your spells are "Cure X Wounds" and "Protection from Evil". Keep this up for a number of days that seems appropriate to the length of the transgression. Or start small, and each time it is required, increase the duration of the imposed spell list. The list shouldn't be a "problem" - after all, the cleric chose those domains him-/herself!
PhaedrusXY 01-12-05, 08:44 AM	Of course you can do whatever you want in your games, but technically according to the rules on deities they either grant spells to a specific follower or they don't. They don't pick and choose which spells they get, and all this other stuff people have mentioned. And once they've granted that follower spells for the day, they have no control on how the follower casts them. They've already done their part in the deal. This is all covered in the Divine abilities parts of the SRD. Giving the character some kind of prophetic message in a dream is fine if you want to be nice about it. But just having them wake up one day and not hear a dial tone on the other end when they try to "phone home" is a perfectly legitimate way to handle it as well, and perfectly in line with a strict interpretation of the rules. You could just make this a one day occurance as a warning, and then have them get their spells as normal the next day. Or you could require them to Atone.