Post/Author/DateTime	Post
John Paul Stoddard 09-30-04, 01:21 PM	Been Studying the Books and I seemed to have found a Conflict between the Rules in creating Magic Items in the PHB and Standard Listed Magical Items in the DMG. Crafting Rings and Staffs require 12th Level minimum yet many of the Items in the DMG is 5th level. I am considering doing away with Level requirements on Crafting items myself. What do most of you do to rule these conflicts??? Right now I just use the Item as listed from the Book and Change the level to the minimum caster level as require to craft that item.
Beamup 09-30-04, 01:28 PM	There is no conflict. *mechanical breathing* You can create items at lower caster levels than your own if you want to, to reduce the costs. So, for example, a Ring of invisibility was crafted by a caster of at least 12th level who chose to make it as a 3rd level caster to reduce the price by a factor of 4. It lasts as long and is as hard to dispel as if cast by a level 3 caster.
Zherog 09-30-04, 08:58 PM	beamup is correct. One addendum, though. A staff must have a minimum caster level of 8.
John Paul Stoddard 09-30-04, 09:33 PM	beamup is correct. One addendum, though. A staff must have a minimum caster level of 8. What source are you using for that ruling. 3.5 PHB page 92 lists the prerequisite : Caster Level 12th The Ability to make a staff with at a lower level still does not account for the Lower caster level as a prereguisite for creating a staff. Why list 5th level on a staff if you have to be 12th? Same thing for Forge Ring, many only reguire 3rd level as a prerequisite and FORGE RING is 12th Level to get it. If I was creating Magic items for myself or for sale I would make it as powerful as I could. Why buy a 5th level staff of "something or another" when it could be 12th
Zherog 09-30-04, 09:52 PM	Caster levels of a magic item are not a prerequisite. As for a staff requiring a minimum caster level - from the SRD: The caster level of all spells in a staff must be the same, and no staff can have a caster level of less than 8th, even if all the spells in the staff are low-level spells. I believe you'll find that quote in the DMG as well.
Zherog 09-30-04, 09:54 PM	3.5 PHB page 92 lists the prerequisite : Caster Level 12th Also, note that the pre-req to gain the feat and the caster level of the item are not the same thing.
John Paul Stoddard 09-30-04, 10:14 PM	Caster level 12th is listed as the Prequisite not Character level 12th for Craft:Staff. Forge Ring also A 12th Level Straight Spell Caster can get it. A class that get spells at two level lower than Character Level gets it at 14th and everyone else gets it when their second, third, fourth class reaches 12th level as a Spell Caster. Ie.. a 20th Level Fighter/20 level Rogue/ 2 Level Sorceror has to get 10 more level as a spell caster before he /she can. Why do they list Caster level lower than 8th in the description of an item if it is not a prequiste of manufacturing that item? Why not just say Craft:staff? Other than the fact that by the Book there are some staffs that reguire more than Caster level 12th.
Zherog 09-30-04, 10:24 PM	The caster level of an item is used to determine things such as save DCs, Dispel Checks, etc against those items.
Talchar 10-01-04, 03:21 AM	sigh, As I hobble slowly to my desk, muttering some grumbling aside about how the young have no respect for their elders. Haughtingly, I rummage through some old dusty notes. "Ah yes, spell caster conflict between the DM's guide and the players handbook... hmmm" Ok, the real answer, is that when they (whoever they are) are sending out "new" versions of D&D, what they do, is collect piles of compliants and various ideals from somebody's nerdy little brother, give it to some college (read: The ugly intern.) and tell them to fix it. Result, a couple of pet issues, get resolved, and the poor intern, wanting to see sunlight again, fails to reconcile changes in the rules, and plays cut and paste games from the old revision to the new revision (if we are lucky that is, computers are somewhat new fangled devices ya know.) More often, the none reconciled rules are copied from edition to edition, typos are entered ( Think the phone game), the editor is too busy trying to update her spell check program to accept Mithral as a word, to check to see if each entry makes sense in the context of the new revision. See the spell Polymorph any Object - The spell Transmute Water to Dust was axed at least two versions ago.... but it still lingers in the distance. More over, the means and attitude about magic item creation and function has fluctuated wildly between the revisions. Basically in AD&D, PC's simply did not make magic items - the rules (what few there were) were insane. Yet AD&D magic items would kick some major rear if any 3.5 DM were to allow them. Considering that good number of AD&D common magic items ended up in the 3.5 Artifact list, if they made it all.... though the AD&D artifact creation system, rocks....ah sorry having flash backs to PC's being unable to touch iron...evil chuckle, even better the potion miscibility table... Ah the beauty of a PC who downs a potion of invisability and then downs a potion of gasous form. Ever try to keep alive a PC that is permanently gasous? That is when those insane caster level requirements in the DMG on magic items really hurt...(but then again, who goes out and collects vampire dust?) Anyway I ramble. My advice to you-ignore the caster level part of the DMG. You'll only go blind. Use your best judgement. At the very least, the caster has to be able to cast the required spell, and have the necessary feats. As I recall, only the staff has a minimum caster level. (8th) The rule I use when making items, is that the caster must cast all spells into the device at a caster level no lower then minimum caster level required to cast the highest level spell in the device. (they can always go higher if they want,, but if they do, they are not forced to cast all the spells at that higher level) Example : Staff of Fire, Wizard level 18. Spells Burning Hands 1st level spell, caster minimum 1 Fire Ball 3rd level spell, caster minimum 5 Delayed Blast FireBall, 7 th level spell caster minimum 13 Rule 1 Staff spells must be cast at a minimum level of 8 Rule 2 Minimum caster level for the highest spell carried is 13. Thus all the spells must be cast into the staff must be done at a caster level no lower then 13 but no higher then 18 ( the wizards level) So for me, as long as all the spells are cast into the staff at levels between 13 & 18, its all gravy to me. Now, other may have different ideas, but who am I to blow against the wind. Now, remember, often a wizard will create an item at a lower caster level then he is. For example, Fireball wand, few 15th level wizards would make a fireball wand at 15th level. Why chuck 11K of gold and 450 exp out the window? Yes, you gain 400 feet of range and wand is a bit harder to dispel, but realistically, is 400 feet and 25% increase in the dispel check worth it? Ok, I am done ranting. And very softly I go forth, terrorizing the country side with exploding chickens.
Sacrusha 10-01-04, 03:43 AM	Do not ignore the PHB or the DMG, the rules about craft wand make sense. Those differences do not have anything to do with version changes like Talchar implied. The prerequisite of caster level 12 for craft staff (or 5 for craft wand, or 3 for brew potion, etc.) means a caster with a caster level of less than 12 cannot craft staves at all. The staff itself must have a minimum caster level of 8, but that is not the caster level of the creator, it is the caster level of the spells it holds. Every spellcaster can cast a spell at any caster level between her own caster level and the minimum caster level required to cast the spell. A 9th level wizard who casts magic missile can chose how many missiles she wants, by chosing a lower caster level - altough this afffects her chance to overcome spell resistance and the chance to be successfully counterspelled with dispel magic.
Snicker-Snack 10-01-04, 03:53 AM	And just to answer one of your questions If I was creating Magic items for myself or for sale I would make it as powerful as I could. Why buy a 5th level staff of "something or another" when it could be 12th Because the lower the CL, the lower the price. Check the rules for pricing magic items on page 285 of the DMG. A ring of invisibility with CL3 costs 20.000 gp (Spell level x CL x 2000 x 2). The same ring with a CL 12 would cost 96.000 gp.
Talchar 10-01-04, 04:55 AM	[QUOTE=Sacrusha]Do not ignore the PHB or the DMG, the rules about craft wand make sense. Those differences do not have anything to do with version changes like Talchar implied. I think you missed the point. I did not tell him to ignore the rules in the DMG or PHG. "At the very least, the caster has to be able to cast the required spell, and have the necessary feats. As I recall, only the staff has a minimum caster level. (8th)" What I did imply, is for his characters to meet the prerequsits (feats & the levels) and from there, follow the formulas on how to make magic items. He has a very legitmate point, the caster levels as stated in the DMG violate the rules in the DMG. ( and don't match up to any formula in the book) So no matter what he does, he is going to violate some rule somewhere. His only hope, is to meet the caster level requirements for the various feats, and use some common sense. My point was directed at the magic item section on the whole. Wands & potions are the only sections that seem to make sense. Especially as those are the only sections that work with with the guidelines as given. Staffs, sort a work, if you turn your head and squint. Go into the wonderous item section and start playing with the caster level numbers. If they make sense to you, I'll buy you a steak dinner and a muffin. How they came up with prices of some of those armor upgrades, I'll never know. I'm betting on the blind dart board selector myself.
Seeker95 10-01-04, 10:20 AM	Although I am not directly disagreeing with Sacrusha in his instructions, I am directly agreeing with Talchar in his advice. The two are not in contradiction, although it appears that Sacrusha was disagreeing with Talchar. In reading the content, you can see that Sacrusha is not. Talchar offered a simplicity that "ignores item caster level". But it does not ignore the rules. 1. To craft the item, you must have the Feat. 1a. To have the Feat, you must have a minimum caster level. 2. To craft the item, you must be able to cast the spell (assitance notwithstanding). 2a. Every spell has a minimum caster level. 2b. Use this as your minimum caster level unless otherwise necessary. 3. Staves (staffs) are the only item with a default minimum caster level: 8th. 3a. For staves, use CL8 if this is higher than the minimum CL for the spell. 4. Maximum CL of any magic item is your own caster level. Summary: Spell CL <= Item CL <= Caster Level. Exception -- Staff: 8 <= Item CL <= Caster Level.
Goreg Skullcrusher 10-01-04, 01:48 PM	3. Staves (staffs) are the only item with a default minimum caster level: 8th. Sorta. All magical weapons/armor also have the minimum "3 times the plus" requirement. So you wouldn't be able to set the caster level on a +1 longsword as less than 3. Then again, I guess this kind of falls under your 2b clause. Don't you just love open-ended clauses? ;)
John Paul Stoddard 10-01-04, 02:59 PM	So Most of you just use the Item as listed in THe DMG
Beamup 10-01-04, 03:13 PM	So Most of you just use the Item as listed in THe DMG That's what the rules are. And the rules work just fine and are 100% consistent, so there's no reason to change them.
Zherog 10-01-04, 03:40 PM	So Most of you just use the Item as listed in THe DMG Depends what you're referring to. On occassion, I'll change the price of something (usually so my PC's can haggle, not because I think something is underpriced). But that's probably not what you mean. I use the Caster Level in the DMG, yes.
Talchar 10-02-04, 12:46 AM	So Most of you just use the Item as listed in THe DMG Not exactly sure what you mean, but in the context of creating magic items. For items listed & priced in the DMG I allways use the DMG figures, unless in the context of the adventure, the cost figures are not appropriate. (Rule 0) However, I do not use the caster level figures, unless by luck, they match the basic requirements to make said item. But from a rule standpoint. See Seeker95's post. So much clearer the my ramblings, on the basics of item creation. How I reconcile with the DMG. Example 1: DMG with too low of a caster level: Cloak of Displacement, Minor The DMG lists the caster level as 3, and the item price of 24K. Required spell is Displacement ( a 3rd level spell) My ruling: A PC must be 5th level to make the item. However, for the purpose of pricing and exp costs, use the DMG figures Rational In my narrow minded world, I would disallow 3rd wizards with the craft wondrous item feat from being able to make this item. Why? well you need to be 5th level to cast Displacement. Now, some have argued, that they could get a scroll of displacement and yada yada yada. So that a 3rd level caster could make the item. I do not agree with that justification, on the grounds that caster level represents a spell casters knowlege base or understanding and or the casters ability to channel the magic. In using a scroll, the caster is not confiring any knowlege of how a spell works or even powering the spell. Its like driving a car. I can drive the car, change the oil, and other minor stuff, but sit me down and have me make a car, I am going to have some issues. Same concept in magic item construction. Example 2: DMG level to high: Mantle of Faith DMG level: 20th, spell requirement- Stoneskin (5th level spell) My Ruling:: PC has to be at least 9th level to make this item. However, the PC still has to use the cost/exp listed in the DMG. Rational: Why would a 20th level spell cast be wasting his time making a 5/evil cloak? Of course, I never really believe in 3.5's treatment of damage reduction. I mean really, Why would a good or evil for that matter aligned creature make a damage reduction item that does not work against the creatures you are most likely going to be fighting?