Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Subtle Knife 01-16-07, 08:59 PM	A question about how most DMs manage the issue of invisibility - is it possible to defeat invisibility through mundane means, such as spilling paint or ink on an invisible individual, or does that ink simply blend in with the spell? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking up a new alchemical "paint-bomb" that one could use if one is faced with invisible enemies - and if one is willing to get oneself covered in ink. Thoughts? SK
frasmage 01-16-07, 09:06 PM	I don't think the paint would show, however the creature may drip and leave an easily followed trail now ;) I would suggest you look at fairy fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm). That marks where invisible creatures are and would not be too expensive to have the druid stock up on scrolls of it.
WinDReiN 01-16-07, 09:07 PM	Well, if the wizard willingly covers him self with ink, the ink would be invisible, but if you splash the area in which a inv wiz is standing, it would reveal him. Don't make it cheap though, it will ruin the spell...
Subtle Knife 01-16-07, 09:17 PM	The point is to use a non-magical method of confounding the effect. Any monkey who knows anything of magic can figure a way to use any number of spells that would penetrate this effect. In this case, I'm proposing an alchemical method wherein one might "pigment" one's invisible enemies. SK
TheCobra 01-16-07, 09:35 PM	Just use a bag of flour. That's the classic trick.
Subtle Knife 01-16-07, 09:39 PM	Now THERE'S the idea! My only question is whether DMs out there would allow that to work! SK
TheCobra 01-16-07, 09:44 PM	My only question is whether DMs out there would allow that to work! I allow it. One of my players made a big deal about putting a bag of flour he found in a giant's bag to such use. Skip says it's okay. See here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040921a
Subtle Knife 01-16-07, 09:46 PM	Well then, thank you! SK
Subtle Knife 01-16-07, 10:03 PM	Here it is - my alchemical bomb! Please comment! Blackbomb This is a roughly-spherical ball that is covered by thin strips of tightly-bound leather, with a metallic disc at one end. The disc is attached to a small spring mechanism that expands the round after the disc is depressed, which in turn cracks a fine glass bladder containing compressed air. Between the leather sheath and the glass bladder is a thick layer of densely-packed, finely granular, and slightly sticky ink powder, which is flashed outwards in a radius of 10ft. After the disc is compressed, the blackbomb is thrown as a grenade-like weapon; any invisible individuals within 10ft must make a reflex save (DC17) or be revealed. The ink is tenacious, and takes several minutes (and often special soaps) to remove effectively. Alchemy check DC 25 to create. Market price: 150gp. Weight 1lb. SK
The Simbul 01-16-07, 10:04 PM	I would start with the Blindfight feat...mainly since it has no prerequisites. Spot checks also go a long way to neutralizing invisibility (at least the part of finding their occupied square), especially if the invisible opponent does not have ranks in Hide and/or isn't effectively or actively utilizing the skill (like moving at full speed or attacking while invisible). However, nothing in D&D is "mundane". If the enemies are powerful enough to have invisibility on demand, or at least enough for it to be a problem, then the heroes should already have invest in or encountered/acquired low level spells like glitterdust, see invisibility, or invisibility purge, or in magic items like dust of appearence or potions/wands of the aforementioned spells (if applicable).
runestar 01-16-07, 11:05 PM	If you pour ink on an invisible foe, note that the ink on him will not become invisible as well. Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Subtle Knife 01-17-07, 07:51 AM	I would start with the Blindfight feat...mainly since it has no prerequisites. Spot checks also go a long way to neutralizing invisibility (at least the part of finding their occupied square), especially if the invisible opponent does not have ranks in Hide and/or isn't effectively or actively utilizing the skill (like moving at full speed or attacking while invisible). However, nothing in D&D is "mundane". If the enemies are powerful enough to have invisibility on demand, or at least enough for it to be a problem, then the heroes should already have invest in or encountered/acquired low level spells like glitterdust, see invisibility, or invisibility purge, or in magic items like dust of appearence or potions/wands of the aforementioned spells (if applicable). I might suggest you read the post before commenting. You advice is so far from what I was looking for! And saying "nothing in D&D is 'mundane'" suggests you don't understand the word in context or are being pretentious. Mundane is non-magical. Int his context, do you have anything useful to add? SK
DMDaddy 01-17-07, 08:22 AM	Throw water on the floor. Throw sand or a bag of tiny rocks on the floor. Marbles. Caltrops. You could also stick something on them and it will remain visible until they conceal it which will then mask it with the invisibility. Maybe a piece of paper with tape that says "I'm here". Throw a few 100 pieces of paper on the ground.
Vegepygmy 01-17-07, 12:23 PM	Folks, you can learn a lot by just reading the rulebooks... One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away).So it's quite clear that the OP's "paint-bomb" would work just fine.
Merestil Haye 01-17-07, 12:57 PM	You can use the Spot skill to notice invisible creatures and objects. The DCs are high but not unmanageable, but assume that the invisible creature is not hiding (beyond being invisible); if the invisible creature is also hiding, add the DC given to his Hide check - which might well make it hard (and so it should).The character can pinpoint the location of an invisible creature, or detect an illusion with a visual component. DC Task 20 Notice presence of active invisible creature 30 Notice presence of unmoving, living invisible creature 40 Notice presence of inanimate invisible object 40 Notice presence of unmoving, unliving invisible creatureThus someone with +19 spot automatically notices an invisible creature moving in his field of vision, just by the blurring of his sight. (As a sidenote, the Superior Invisibility spell will get round almost all methods of detecting the creature - the only allowed methods being True Seeing and physical contact. Given that, I'd increase the DCs in the table above by +20 if Superior Invisibility was used - others may deny Spot checks altogether, and I did give that active consideration.)
tarkin 01-17-07, 03:47 PM	In addition, the spell Glitterdust is super-appropriate for this kind of magic item, and DEFINITELY would paint the person in a form of paint that would be visible.
The Simbul 01-17-07, 05:49 PM	I might suggest you read the post before commenting. You advice is so far from what I was looking for! And saying "nothing in D&D is 'mundane'" suggests you don't understand the word in context or are being pretentious. Mundane is non-magical. Int his context, do you have anything useful to add? SKYou asked how DMs deal with invisibility, and I gave you my answer. You wanted options that are mundane, and I gave them to you. Blindfight if a feat. Feats are non-magical. Spot and Listen are skills. Skills are non-magical. My statement that "nothing in D&D is mundane" was precisely aimed at the context you used. Nothing in D&D is intended to be accomplished by purely non-magical means. Magic permeates every aspect of the D&D universe, and player characters are supposed to utilize spells, magic items, and abilities on a regular basis to accomplish their goals, regardless of whether or not they themselves are the ones in possession of those spells, items, or abilities. The intention of the rules is that if a character is repeatedly encountering foes who are powerful enough to make excessive use of invisibility, then they should already have access to the spells or magic items capable of neutralizing or mitigating the effectiveness of that power...or have adequate gold to acquire them. As for the issue of 'reading before replying', and why I didn't bother to address your specific queries on using paint or ink, that is because the question was already answered in the rules. Indeed, if you had read the relevant sections in the DMG under Abilities and Conditions (aptly entitled "Invisibility") before making the thread to begin with, then perhaps your question would have answered itself.If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away)...Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location...An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.
primemover003 01-17-07, 08:24 PM	Here it is - my alchemical bomb! Please comment! Blackbomb This is a roughly-spherical ball that is covered by thin strips of tightly-bound leather, with a metallic disc at one end. The disc is attached to a small spring mechanism that expands the round after the disc is depressed, which in turn cracks a fine glass bladder containing compressed air. Between the leather sheath and the glass bladder is a thick layer of densely-packed, finely granular, and slightly sticky ink powder, which is flashed outwards in a radius of 10ft. After the disc is compressed, the blackbomb is thrown as a grenade-like weapon; any invisible individuals within 10ft must make a reflex save (DC17) or be revealed. The ink is tenacious, and takes several minutes (and often special soaps) to remove effectively. Alchemy check DC 25 to create. Market price: 150gp. Weight 1lb. SK Change the area of effect to one 5 foot square or a 5 foot radius at the most and reduce the Reflex save to 15 and it might be ok for 150gp. Otherwise that's fairly powerful for an alchemical item, basically duplicating the effect of a 1st or 2nd level spell (faerie fire and glitterdust respectively).
runestar 01-17-07, 10:47 PM	Someone actually dared to flame the Simbul...:eek:
Yokomohoyo 01-18-07, 02:52 AM	I like the granade idea but I would add: Everyone in the area must make a relfex save DC-17 or be covered with ink. Those subject to the ink must make a fort save DC-15 or be blinded for 1 round.