Confused About Controlling Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused About Controlling Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonRyoko
10-08-04, 09:21 PM Ok, im putting this on the magic board, since most of it deals with spells, only some of it is on class abilities. Also ya might need Libris Mortis to double check one thing.

Ok -
So how many Undead can a Wizard control? With Animate Dead you can Control up to 4x your Caster Level, with command undead(spell) there isnt a Limit.

So how many Undead can you control with a Cleric? With Animate Dead you can Control up to 4x your Caster Level, and with Command Undead(class ability) there is a limit of your HD.

With the new Domain in Libris Mortis(ill leave out the name so i can put its effects, that isnt exactly defying the ToS is it?) You gain "Your limit of controling undead thru spells is 3 times your caster level, instead of 2"
---Where is it stated that you can ever control 2x your caster level of undead?!

Right now im trying to create my "Perfect" necromancer, and need to know the answers :) Thanks much in advance!
Seeker95
10-08-04, 10:23 PM 1. A wizard can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x)
2. A wizard can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead.
3. A wizard can command any number. But look at what command undead does.
It lets you force undead to treat you in a friendly manner. That's all.
No orders. No control. It requires a Charisma check to make them do anything.

Command is anything but commanding.
Control is for undead you didn't make.
Animate allows control of the undead you do make.

A 20th level Necromancer (wizard) can:
Animate 80HD (under his control)
Control another 40HD of undead (not made by him) (for 20 minutes).
Command however many undead he can get within 75 feet of, for 20 days each.

Ditto for Clerics.
Bloodtide_the_Red
10-09-04, 01:11 AM Don't forget to take the Leadership feat and get some undead cohorts too. Should work nicely for a general or other army commanders. Or get yourself another necromancer or cleric to create and control more undead.

Another trick...get undead that create undead spawn. Take a Wight for example. You can control one and have it create plenty of wight-spawn. Now, you don't control all thoes spawn...but you control the one who controls all of them.

Another trick...uncontroled undead. You can simply grab undead and toss them in the direction you want them to cause trouble. They make good shock troops this way. Halt undead, Otiluke's sphere and lots of other spells can grab 'unwilling uncontroled ' undead. Drop a mohrg in a group of fighters and he will likely kill some before it escapes.

BT
CrimsonRyoko
10-09-04, 01:00 PM Thanks Seeker, your always right it seems, and tend to make things seem simple when im confused :)

I got Libris Mortis, and about a month ago my game group started up a "Lawful" campaign, so most of us are lawful evil, since its usually baned to be evil. Anyway, i really wanted to play a necro, but wanted to wait for Libris to come out, but my DM said i could make a new char without penalty when it did come out, and now its out and i wana make a True Necromancer.
My questions were over what Domains to choose, and exactly how many minions i could control, which appears to be ALOT!

One other question:
Which comes first? Bonus to Caster Level from Class Abilities(Necromantic Prowess from True Necromancer in this case) or the bonuses from Practiced spellcaster?
See i want to max my CL if at all possible, but i dont want to take Practiced Spellcaster at a low level, and then have Necro Prowess ovverride it making the feats useless. And since PS says ya cant go passed your HD for CL, would it come first, and then the Class abilities? Or would those feats become useless?
CrimsonRyoko
10-11-04, 07:32 PM Ok Seeker, pretend im a child and go over it, cuz i just dont get it i dont think. . . .

1. A wizard can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x)
With what Spell? Just Control Undead?
2. A wizard can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead.
This is only with Animate Dead? And the 4x is Under your control, but does not count towards any other "Control" undead?
3. A wizard can command any number.
This is with the spell Command Undead right? And they dont count towards any limits of either of the above two?

1. A Cleric can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x)
With what Spell? Or is this only with Commanding undead via Rebuke Attempts?
2. A Cleric can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead.
This is only with Animate Dead? And the 4x is Under your control, but does not count towards any other "Controlled" undead?
3. A Cleric can command any number.
Is this only with Commanding undead via Rebuke Attempts, and do those count towards any other limits?

And what are the Totals when you are a Cleric3/Wizard3/True Necromancer14? Your Caster level is 20 without Feats, so we will stick with that for now.
Sorry if this is a bit much to ask, and i know i sortof asked a bit about it in another thread. . . but i just wanna know for sure how it all works. . . :confused:
Seeker95
10-11-04, 07:34 PM And what are the Totals when you are a Cleric3/Wizard3/True Necromancer14? Your Caster level is 20 without Feats, so we will stick with that for now.You only get one caster level at a time. Since the effective caster level for the Clr3/Wiz3/TN14 is 20 in all three cases, it doesn't matter. The CL is 20 no matter how you are casting the spell.
D1Tremere
10-11-04, 07:47 PM Animate Dead lets you create 4 HD worth of undead per Caster level.
A character can only ever control 2 HD per caster level of undead threw spells like Animate Dead. If you have the new domain (which I didn't know we couldn't poste the name of for some reason) You can control 3 HD instead of 2.
Command Undead has no limit, but it does have a duration. It grants control of non-intelligent undead and charms intelligent undead.
Rebuke undead has a limit based on cleric level.
ssvegeta555
10-11-04, 09:01 PM Animate Dead
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: One or more corpses touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.
The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)
Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit) The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells.

This is quoted from the 3.5 SRD. Read the bold, you guys are reversing the 2. You can control 4HD of undead per caster level.
CrimsonRyoko
10-12-04, 11:21 AM I think there are alot of rules confusions since Wizards did a bit of Copy/Paste between editions. . . . Because i think ive found some references to the 2hd/lvl limit in some 3.5 stuff, but i could be wrong. Anyway, it is a bit confusing, and i wish in LM they would have had a difinitive chart on ways to control undead and the limits thereof.
D1Tremere
10-12-04, 12:04 PM He's right, I had them backwards.
I'm not sure what the deal is with the deathbound domain then.
D1Tremere
10-12-04, 12:39 PM The WotC customer service people said that the Deathbound domain will be fixed in the errata eventually, but if you need a spot rueling they said that it should allow you to control 5 HD per caster level instead of the normal 4 HD.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonRyoko 10-08-04, 09:21 PM	Ok, im putting this on the magic board, since most of it deals with spells, only some of it is on class abilities. Also ya might need Libris Mortis to double check one thing. Ok - So how many Undead can a Wizard control? With Animate Dead you can Control up to 4x your Caster Level, with command undead(spell) there isnt a Limit. So how many Undead can you control with a Cleric? With Animate Dead you can Control up to 4x your Caster Level, and with Command Undead(class ability) there is a limit of your HD. With the new Domain in Libris Mortis(ill leave out the name so i can put its effects, that isnt exactly defying the ToS is it?) You gain "Your limit of controling undead thru spells is 3 times your caster level, instead of 2" ---Where is it stated that you can ever control 2x your caster level of undead?! Right now im trying to create my "Perfect" necromancer, and need to know the answers :) Thanks much in advance!
Seeker95 10-08-04, 10:23 PM	1. A wizard can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x) 2. A wizard can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead. 3. A wizard can command any number. But look at what command undead does. It lets you force undead to treat you in a friendly manner. That's all. No orders. No control. It requires a Charisma check to make them do anything. Command is anything but commanding. Control is for undead you didn't make. Animate allows control of the undead you do make. A 20th level Necromancer (wizard) can: Animate 80HD (under his control) Control another 40HD of undead (not made by him) (for 20 minutes). Command however many undead he can get within 75 feet of, for 20 days each. Ditto for Clerics.
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-09-04, 01:11 AM	Don't forget to take the Leadership feat and get some undead cohorts too. Should work nicely for a general or other army commanders. Or get yourself another necromancer or cleric to create and control more undead. Another trick...get undead that create undead spawn. Take a Wight for example. You can control one and have it create plenty of wight-spawn. Now, you don't control all thoes spawn...but you control the one who controls all of them. Another trick...uncontroled undead. You can simply grab undead and toss them in the direction you want them to cause trouble. They make good shock troops this way. Halt undead, Otiluke's sphere and lots of other spells can grab 'unwilling uncontroled ' undead. Drop a mohrg in a group of fighters and he will likely kill some before it escapes. BT
CrimsonRyoko 10-09-04, 01:00 PM	Thanks Seeker, your always right it seems, and tend to make things seem simple when im confused :) I got Libris Mortis, and about a month ago my game group started up a "Lawful" campaign, so most of us are lawful evil, since its usually baned to be evil. Anyway, i really wanted to play a necro, but wanted to wait for Libris to come out, but my DM said i could make a new char without penalty when it did come out, and now its out and i wana make a True Necromancer. My questions were over what Domains to choose, and exactly how many minions i could control, which appears to be ALOT! One other question: Which comes first? Bonus to Caster Level from Class Abilities(Necromantic Prowess from True Necromancer in this case) or the bonuses from Practiced spellcaster? See i want to max my CL if at all possible, but i dont want to take Practiced Spellcaster at a low level, and then have Necro Prowess ovverride it making the feats useless. And since PS says ya cant go passed your HD for CL, would it come first, and then the Class abilities? Or would those feats become useless?
CrimsonRyoko 10-11-04, 07:32 PM	Ok Seeker, pretend im a child and go over it, cuz i just dont get it i dont think. . . . 1. A wizard can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x) With what Spell? Just Control Undead? 2. A wizard can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead. This is only with Animate Dead? And the 4x is Under your control, but does not count towards any other "Control" undead? 3. A wizard can command any number. This is with the spell Command Undead right? And they dont count towards any limits of either of the above two? 1. A Cleric can control up to (2xCL) HD of undead. (Not 4x) With what Spell? Or is this only with Commanding undead via Rebuke Attempts? 2. A Cleric can animate up to (4xCL) HD of undead. This is only with Animate Dead? And the 4x is Under your control, but does not count towards any other "Controlled" undead? 3. A Cleric can command any number. Is this only with Commanding undead via Rebuke Attempts, and do those count towards any other limits? And what are the Totals when you are a Cleric3/Wizard3/True Necromancer14? Your Caster level is 20 without Feats, so we will stick with that for now. Sorry if this is a bit much to ask, and i know i sortof asked a bit about it in another thread. . . but i just wanna know for sure how it all works. . . :confused:
Seeker95 10-11-04, 07:34 PM	And what are the Totals when you are a Cleric3/Wizard3/True Necromancer14? Your Caster level is 20 without Feats, so we will stick with that for now.You only get one caster level at a time. Since the effective caster level for the Clr3/Wiz3/TN14 is 20 in all three cases, it doesn't matter. The CL is 20 no matter how you are casting the spell.
D1Tremere 10-11-04, 07:47 PM	Animate Dead lets you create 4 HD worth of undead per Caster level. A character can only ever control 2 HD per caster level of undead threw spells like Animate Dead. If you have the new domain (which I didn't know we couldn't poste the name of for some reason) You can control 3 HD instead of 2. Command Undead has no limit, but it does have a duration. It grants control of non-intelligent undead and charms intelligent undead. Rebuke undead has a limit based on cleric level.
ssvegeta555 10-11-04, 09:01 PM	Animate Dead Necromancy [Evil] Level: Clr 3, Death 3, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Targets: One or more corpses touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.) Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can’t create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. (The desecrate spell doubles this limit) The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit. Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones. Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy. Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells. This is quoted from the 3.5 SRD. Read the bold, you guys are reversing the 2. You can control 4HD of undead per caster level.
CrimsonRyoko 10-12-04, 11:21 AM	I think there are alot of rules confusions since Wizards did a bit of Copy/Paste between editions. . . . Because i think ive found some references to the 2hd/lvl limit in some 3.5 stuff, but i could be wrong. Anyway, it is a bit confusing, and i wish in LM they would have had a difinitive chart on ways to control undead and the limits thereof.
D1Tremere 10-12-04, 12:04 PM	He's right, I had them backwards. I'm not sure what the deal is with the deathbound domain then.
D1Tremere 10-12-04, 12:39 PM	The WotC customer service people said that the Deathbound domain will be fixed in the errata eventually, but if you need a spot rueling they said that it should allow you to control 5 HD per caster level instead of the normal 4 HD.