Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fairplay 07-14-04, 11:23 PM	Can someone help me out? In the DMG p214 it says the save for a wand is 10 + lvl of spell + ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of the spell. So does this mean that a 9th level wand of magic missiles (5 missiles) would have a save DC of 12? (10 + 1st level spell + int. modifier of +1)? I'm pretty sure I'm missing something here...any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Endless Dave 07-15-04, 12:01 AM	That's exactly what it means -- for generic wands that you find and that are listed in the DMG. If your character (or anyone else) creates a wand, its save is based on the creator's ability score. If your 18 int wizard crafted that Magic Missile wand, it would have a save DC of 15 (10 + level of spell + int mod), er um if MM allowed a save of course.
Mitchell 07-15-04, 12:02 AM	Well, the thing that I think you're missing is that Magic Missile doesn't allow a save.
bitnine 07-15-04, 12:54 AM	Originally posted by fairplay So does this mean that a 9th level wand of magic missiles (5 missiles) would have a save DC of 12? (10 + 1st level spell + int. modifier of +1)? Actually, the int required to cast a 1st level spell is 11, and has an int modifier of +0, not +1.
cwslyclgh 07-15-04, 03:55 AM	If your character (or anyone else) creates a wand, its save is based on the creator's ability score. this is incorrect... the save is always the same no matter who makes the wand (which is the always minimum for the spell) there is a feat in the epic level hand book (although it is not an epic level feat) which allows creators to create magic items that have Save DC's based upon the creators ability modifier rather then the minimum. hope that helps :)
fairplay 07-15-04, 09:30 AM	hehe I totally forgot that MM doesn't allow for a save (d'oh!). what would the plus be against SR for the same 9th level MM wand?
Beamup 07-15-04, 11:43 AM	+9, since the minimum caster level to cast a 5-missile MM is 9. Although you can choose to craft a wand (or other similar item) at a higher caster level than the minimum... anything up to the crafter's caster level, in fact. At, of course, a correspondingly increased price.
Krelios 07-15-04, 12:13 PM	Except for one small line in the Create Wand Description in the SRD... "Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level."
Beamup 07-15-04, 12:19 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Except for one small line in the Create Wand Description in the SRD... "Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level." Which affects such things as SR penetration, but not saves. As cwslyclgh said, wands always use the minimum stat to determine save DC.
fairplay 07-15-04, 12:25 PM	are you 2 just saying the same thing? It looks like you are angrily agreeing with each other?
Krelios 07-15-04, 12:26 PM	Actually we are saying the same thing. My quote was probably misleading. It's just that Beamup and I disagree so often I think we both assume the other person is wrong from the beginning. :)
Beamup 07-15-04, 12:35 PM	Originally posted by Krelios Actually we are saying the same thing. My quote was probably misleading. It's just that Beamup and I disagree so often I think we both assume the other person is wrong from the beginning. :) :confused: Then what was the point of your post? It didn't say anything related to the post you were replying to AFAICT.
fairplay 07-15-04, 01:15 PM	Well, thanks guys, for your clarification! ..slowly backs out of the room... edit: what is AFAICT?
Gold Katana 07-15-04, 01:37 PM	"as far as I can tell"
flamefist drunkenmonk 07-15-04, 01:44 PM	so... either way the save is at its minimum ... lets say a wizard with an int of 15 makes a wand of fireball: the saw would be 10+3(spell level)+1(13 int = + 1 modifier) but if another wizard with an intelligence of 20 made a wand the save would still be 10+3(spell level)+1(13 int = + 1 modifier) doesnt that seem a little... underpowered... the save is 14.. no matter what.. or am i missing something (if this is true YAY wizards become slightly more balanced :D ... no offence to anyone):angel:
fairplay 07-15-04, 01:48 PM	Flamefist hit my point exactly. I'm curious of this answer as well if anyone out there would care to answer! Thanks!
Beamup 07-15-04, 01:49 PM	You are correct, both wands would have the same save DC. Several reasons for this: - Doesn't make wands too powerful for common cheap items - Makes staves much more attractive, as they should be - MUCH simpler... if wands depended on the crafter's stats, you'd have to track the DC for every wand AND work out how to price different-stat wands. So yeah, it's a little odd. But there are good reasons for it.
Edymnion 07-15-04, 02:19 PM	Yes, wands have the absolute minimum save the spell can possibly have. Caster level doesn't matter, because caster level does not factor in to save DCs. A wand with a first lvl spell in it would have a save DC of 11, 10 + Spell Level (1) + Ability Mod (only need an 11 to cast first level spells, so thats +0). Save DC for a wand with a second level spell is 13, 10 + Spell Level (2) + Ability Mod (need a 12, so +1). So yeah, the saves for wands suck. Thats what staves are for :)
flamefist drunkenmonk 07-15-04, 04:22 PM	well.. i guess this is good for my monk heheh.. my wizard friend is gonna have some problems though. I see what you mean by it has good reasons for it to be that way ( i didnt know staff's DID have ability modifier to save DC) thanks agian
Planeshifter Ixiaul 07-15-04, 05:55 PM	i hate this "rule"this is incorrect... the save is always the same no matter who makes the wand (which is the always minimum for the spell) ALWAYS have i seen this as an extremely stupid "rule"...and i'm a rule w-h-o-r-e! i say if you FIND or BUY a wand or anything else that requires a saving throw, then it's the minimun. if a character MAKES a wand or what have you then the save is based off of THEIR OWN ability score. cwslyclgh i believe you are mistaken. i have my ELH right here and there's no feat that changes the saves for items created by the character. Krelios you make a good point. the prices should ALWAYS be ajusted according to the creator's ability modifier and what not.
cwslyclgh 07-15-04, 06:02 PM	ALWAYS have i seen this as an extremely stupid "rule" but a rule it is, feel free to house rule it otherwise, but when people ask about rules on the boards it is always advisable to give them the real rules, and then if they find them lacking suggest house rules that suite you... but please do not try to confuse poeple about how the rules work just because you don't like them. cwslyclgh i believe you are mistaken. i have my ELH right here and there's no feat that changes the saves for items created by the character. Enhance Item, ELH page 114.
flamefist drunkenmonk 07-15-04, 06:25 PM	just ... kinda sayin something... iv been seeing a lot of flaming lately when people think something is stupid... thats their opinion ... so i just wanna say ty cwslyclgh for not flaming :D anyway ... i kinda like it mainly for simplicity, and the fact that they are pretty cheap to make (at least the way my friend makes it seem) but i also see what planeshifter means by it... who wouldnt want to use their high ability score for an item THEY make.
Planeshifter Ixiaul 07-15-04, 08:13 PM	i didn't mean for that to seem like "flaming", sorry. i was not even aware that was a true rule. hence the quotation marks. thus telling of what i used as the rule. Enhance Item, ELH page 114 oh, well would you look at that...since it wasn't with the other feats i really didn't pay attention. i also figured it to be a varient rule or optional feat. anyway...oh well.
flamefist drunkenmonk 07-15-04, 09:23 PM	OH NO ... u werent flaming.. thats why i was happy :D
bitnine 07-15-04, 09:36 PM	There's a Wand Mastery feat in ECS. Needs spellcaster 9th, but really great for an artificer with a bag o' wands.
fairplay 07-15-04, 09:59 PM	sorry, double post, see below
fairplay 07-15-04, 10:00 PM	What about a cleric wand of say, CMW? You don't need to really worry about a save for this, but how much would the wand cure? Is it 2d8 (base CMW) + 2 (2nd level spell) for a total of 2d8+2 max, or could it be adjusted for caster level? clarity would be much appreciated!
cwslyclgh 07-15-04, 10:04 PM	for the base price listed in the DMG it would cure 2d8+3 (cure moderate wounds is a 2nd level spell with a minimum caster level of 3rd) you could create one that cured more (all the way up to 2d8+10) by setting the caster level higher, but you would have to pay extra for it... (no matter what, the save DC--incase you used it against an undead creature or something would be the minimum for the spell, in this case 13).
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh for the base price listed in the DMG it would cure 2d8+3 (cure moderate wounds is a 2nd level spell with a minimum caster level of 3rd) you could create one that cured more (all the way up to 2d8+10) by setting the caster level higher, but you would have to pay extra for it... (no matter what, the save DC--incase you used it against an undead creature or something would be the minimum for the spell, in this case 13). As a general rule, getting higher CL wands of Cure spells is highly cost-ineffective. For example: Wand of CLW, CL1: cures 1d8+1 points, costs 750gp. Wand of CLW, CL2: cures 1d8+2 points, costs 1500gp. For 1500gp, you're much better off just buying two wands at CL1... -Hyp.
cwslyclgh 07-15-04, 11:04 PM	Ir ealize this Hype... but it is possible... if cost ineffective :)
Hypersmurf 07-15-04, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh Ir ealize this Hype... but it is possible... if cost ineffective :) Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can see Wands of Magic Missile and Fireball of varying caster level on the table! -Hyp.
bitnine 07-15-04, 11:17 PM	I suppose you could also shell out for a heightened wand to raise the DC, though that seems like a little bit of a waste. Then again, it's sort of one of the big selling point of the staff:Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.Limited use staffs aren't cheap, but provide for quality spell effects. The most affordable are the staffs that have a 'big ticket' spell that uses 2 charges per use, and then a lesser spell (perhaps 1st level or so) that uses 1 charge.