Conjuration and Necromancy: Opposites? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conjuration and Necromancy: Opposites? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Infinitum
07-04-07, 03:18 AM As the title suggests, I am debating whether or not Conjuration and Necromancy are opposites of each other and want feedback from the community here. This is my reasoning so far:
Necromancy is based around the manipulation, and destruction of life force. It may also include the raising of undead creatures based on whats on hand (which is done utilizing negative energies). Conjuration manipulates existing energy to create effects and objects as well as summoning or calling creatures when desired. Necromancy is eliminating essential energy to fulfill the caster's ends. Conjuration is the manifestation and the utilization of the powers of creation to fulfill the caster's desires.
What are your thoughts? Share them :) I'm curious as to what you all think.

P.S: I am basing my analysis of the two schools on what is in the Player's Handbook and my own examination of both schools.
katarl
07-04-07, 06:16 AM They're not really opposite though are they? (except of course the healing and causing subtypes which live in each school respectively)

Conjuration is about moving matter, at its base components, from place a to place b.

Necromancy is about manipulating life energy, controlling the flow of negative and positive.

That makes them different, but more alike than opposites, there isn't any real opposites in the schools.
The_Ditto
07-04-07, 08:37 AM 3rd edition did away with the "opposing schools" .. but if you want, dig up your old 2e book ... the opposing schools chart is in there ...
:tiphat:
Pentar
07-04-07, 12:05 PM Thematically, I'd say Conjuration is directly opposed by Illusion. In the case of Conjuration, you are creating and manifesting real objects and material. In the case of Illusion, it is all about warping the senses and creating effects that fake people out into thinking it is real (or in some cases, actually create quasi-real things).
Horseshoe_Hermit
07-04-07, 08:48 PM No school is an opposite of another. That doesn't make any sense.

Abjurations protect, dispel, or banish.
Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot.
Divinations bring information to the caster (they can foil deceptive spells or enhance or bestow means of perception).
Enchantments alter the minds of creatures.
Evocations manipulate or create energy.
Illusions create, conceal, or change sensory qualities.
Necromancy manipulates, creates, or destroys life.
Transmutations modify physical properties, or manipulate time or space.

What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment.
Karish
07-04-07, 09:03 PM Given I house rule healing spells to be Necromancy, not conjuration.

I think that the two are related. Conjuration is the body, Necromancy is the soul, both being the same. You summon a monster with Con, you invoke the powers of life to animate a body with Nec.
Infinitum
07-05-07, 02:18 AM Interesting ideas, I can see all of those points.

Karish has an interesting point I think. Conjuration deals more with manipulating the energies inherent within the Planes themselves. Conjurers create objects, heal, teleport, summon/call creatures (a form of teleportation with a binding element) &c, but Necromancy deals with the life force that is infused within creation itself. You can not summon a creature if the creature does not have some form of life energy to begin with. Even the Abominations, progeny of proto-deities require that spark to remain in existence. In this way I would dare venture that although they may not be opposites in the sense of life and death, they are opposites in forms of vessels and that which is housed within those vessels.

Just my idea thus far anyways. Its had some revisioning :)
ArcTan
07-05-07, 09:02 PM Conjuration (Healing) is clearly the opposite of Necromancy, but clearly not all of Conjuration.

This is why people lobby to put Conjuration (Healing) in Necromancy, or make Necromancy and Healing two subschools of one big school called Theurgy or Animancy or something.
Tobias Talco'un
07-06-07, 12:30 AM Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot.
Enchantments alter the minds of creatures.
Evocations manipulate or create energy.

What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment.

I think of it this way. The Words are. They are kinda like the words of creation, or the word IS that thing. They are an actual thing, not an thought or an energy.

The Words aren't like an image or a sound. You may have seen something that made you say "Oh, that's sick", but the Word of Pain is the same as setting some one on fire, because they will be in pain. Not because they think (ench) they are in pain, or because something is damaging them (evo), but because the wizard brought forth a fragment of Pain itself, or the idea or concept of pain. And coming in contact with the whisper of this fragment is powerful.

At least, thats what they are IMO.
ArcTan
07-06-07, 01:34 AM No school is an opposite of another. That doesn't make any sense.

Abjurations protect, dispel, or banish.
Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot.
Divinations bring information to the caster (they can foil deceptive spells or enhance or bestow means of perception).
Enchantments alter the minds of creatures.
Evocations manipulate or create energy.
Illusions create, conceal, or change sensory qualities.
Necromancy manipulates, creates, or destroys life.
Transmutations modify physical properties, or manipulate time or space.

What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment.

Er, all three core power word spells are Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting].

It makes sense to me. The power word says the word "BLIND!" or "STUN!" or "KILL!" very loudly, and it's so compelling that the creature actually gets blinded or stunned or killed.
ArcTan
07-06-07, 01:37 AM I think of it this way. The Words are. They are kinda like the words of creation, or the word IS that thing. They are an actual thing, not an thought or an energy.

The Words aren't like an image or a sound. You may have seen something that made you say "Oh, that's sick", but the Word of Pain is the same as setting some one on fire, because they will be in pain. Not because they think (ench) they are in pain, or because something is damaging them (evo), but because the wizard brought forth a fragment of Pain itself, or the idea or concept of pain. And coming in contact with the whisper of this fragment is powerful.

At least, thats what they are IMO.

There is no word of pain. At least not in D&D (I think it's a World of Warcraft spell).

Symbol of pain does exist, but is a Necromancy spell. All of the Symbol spells are either Necromancy (ones that primarily affect the body) or Enchantment (ones that primarily affect the mind). All of the Power Words are Enchantment.

I'm kind of amused by how much effort seems to be going into fixing an inconsistency that doesn't actually exist in the rules.
Infinitum
07-06-07, 01:58 AM I'm gonna hijack my own thread here. Looking at Necromancy in the late game, how would you say the spell school holds up against the other schools in terms of lethality and usefulness? Also, how effective would you say it is vs stronger creatures, ranging from high non-epic to epic monsters? I have my own ideas here but I really want to know what other people may think :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Infinitum 07-04-07, 03:18 AM	As the title suggests, I am debating whether or not Conjuration and Necromancy are opposites of each other and want feedback from the community here. This is my reasoning so far: Necromancy is based around the manipulation, and destruction of life force. It may also include the raising of undead creatures based on whats on hand (which is done utilizing negative energies). Conjuration manipulates existing energy to create effects and objects as well as summoning or calling creatures when desired. Necromancy is eliminating essential energy to fulfill the caster's ends. Conjuration is the manifestation and the utilization of the powers of creation to fulfill the caster's desires. What are your thoughts? Share them :) I'm curious as to what you all think. P.S: I am basing my analysis of the two schools on what is in the Player's Handbook and my own examination of both schools.
katarl 07-04-07, 06:16 AM	They're not really opposite though are they? (except of course the healing and causing subtypes which live in each school respectively) Conjuration is about moving matter, at its base components, from place a to place b. Necromancy is about manipulating life energy, controlling the flow of negative and positive. That makes them different, but more alike than opposites, there isn't any real opposites in the schools.
The_Ditto 07-04-07, 08:37 AM	3rd edition did away with the "opposing schools" .. but if you want, dig up your old 2e book ... the opposing schools chart is in there ... :tiphat:
Pentar 07-04-07, 12:05 PM	Thematically, I'd say Conjuration is directly opposed by Illusion. In the case of Conjuration, you are creating and manifesting real objects and material. In the case of Illusion, it is all about warping the senses and creating effects that fake people out into thinking it is real (or in some cases, actually create quasi-real things).
Horseshoe_Hermit 07-04-07, 08:48 PM	No school is an opposite of another. That doesn't make any sense. Abjurations protect, dispel, or banish. Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot. Divinations bring information to the caster (they can foil deceptive spells or enhance or bestow means of perception). Enchantments alter the minds of creatures. Evocations manipulate or create energy. Illusions create, conceal, or change sensory qualities. Necromancy manipulates, creates, or destroys life. Transmutations modify physical properties, or manipulate time or space. What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment.
Karish 07-04-07, 09:03 PM	Given I house rule healing spells to be Necromancy, not conjuration. I think that the two are related. Conjuration is the body, Necromancy is the soul, both being the same. You summon a monster with Con, you invoke the powers of life to animate a body with Nec.
Infinitum 07-05-07, 02:18 AM	Interesting ideas, I can see all of those points. Karish has an interesting point I think. Conjuration deals more with manipulating the energies inherent within the Planes themselves. Conjurers create objects, heal, teleport, summon/call creatures (a form of teleportation with a binding element) &c, but Necromancy deals with the life force that is infused within creation itself. You can not summon a creature if the creature does not have some form of life energy to begin with. Even the Abominations, progeny of proto-deities require that spark to remain in existence. In this way I would dare venture that although they may not be opposites in the sense of life and death, they are opposites in forms of vessels and that which is housed within those vessels. Just my idea thus far anyways. Its had some revisioning :)
ArcTan 07-05-07, 09:02 PM	Conjuration (Healing) is clearly the opposite of Necromancy, but clearly not all of Conjuration. This is why people lobby to put Conjuration (Healing) in Necromancy, or make Necromancy and Healing two subschools of one big school called Theurgy or Animancy or something.
Tobias Talco'un 07-06-07, 12:30 AM	Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot. Enchantments alter the minds of creatures. Evocations manipulate or create energy. What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. I think of it this way. The Words are. They are kinda like the words of creation, or the word IS that thing. They are an actual thing, not an thought or an energy. The Words aren't like an image or a sound. You may have seen something that made you say "Oh, that's sick", but the Word of Pain is the same as setting some one on fire, because they will be in pain. Not because they think (ench) they are in pain, or because something is damaging them (evo), but because the wizard brought forth a fragment of Pain itself, or the idea or concept of pain. And coming in contact with the whisper of this fragment is powerful. At least, thats what they are IMO.
ArcTan 07-06-07, 01:34 AM	No school is an opposite of another. That doesn't make any sense. Abjurations protect, dispel, or banish. Conjurations bring objects or creatures to the caster, or create effects on the spot. Divinations bring information to the caster (they can foil deceptive spells or enhance or bestow means of perception). Enchantments alter the minds of creatures. Evocations manipulate or create energy. Illusions create, conceal, or change sensory qualities. Necromancy manipulates, creates, or destroys life. Transmutations modify physical properties, or manipulate time or space. What I've wondered is how exactly to work the Power Words into the definition of Conjuration in a non-ad hoc manner (as in, without saying "Power words are Conjurations"). Because the current definitions would seem to place Power words anywhere between Conjuration, Evocation, and Enchantment. Er, all three core power word spells are Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]. It makes sense to me. The power word says the word "BLIND!" or "STUN!" or "KILL!" very loudly, and it's so compelling that the creature actually gets blinded or stunned or killed.
ArcTan 07-06-07, 01:37 AM	I think of it this way. The Words are. They are kinda like the words of creation, or the word IS that thing. They are an actual thing, not an thought or an energy. The Words aren't like an image or a sound. You may have seen something that made you say "Oh, that's sick", but the Word of Pain is the same as setting some one on fire, because they will be in pain. Not because they think (ench) they are in pain, or because something is damaging them (evo), but because the wizard brought forth a fragment of Pain itself, or the idea or concept of pain. And coming in contact with the whisper of this fragment is powerful. At least, thats what they are IMO. There is no word of pain. At least not in D&D (I think it's a World of Warcraft spell). Symbol of pain does exist, but is a Necromancy spell. All of the Symbol spells are either Necromancy (ones that primarily affect the body) or Enchantment (ones that primarily affect the mind). All of the Power Words are Enchantment. I'm kind of amused by how much effort seems to be going into fixing an inconsistency that doesn't actually exist in the rules.
Infinitum 07-06-07, 01:58 AM	I'm gonna hijack my own thread here. Looking at Necromancy in the late game, how would you say the spell school holds up against the other schools in terms of lethality and usefulness? Also, how effective would you say it is vs stronger creatures, ranging from high non-epic to epic monsters? I have my own ideas here but I really want to know what other people may think :)