Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andarious 02-15-05, 09:32 PM	Can you critical or sneak attack with a cure spell to heal extra damage? It works with an Inflict spell, so my logic is reverse that, percision should help heal as much as it helps to harm. In that case, can you Coup de Grace with say Cure Light wounds, at caster level 5 to heal (1d8+5)*2+sneak attack? Weird concept I know, but I want some feedback.
Nephlite 02-15-05, 09:41 PM	Can you critical or sneak attack with a cure spell to heal extra damage? It works with an Inflict spell, so my logic is reverse that, percision should help heal as much as it helps to harm. In that case, can you Coup de Grace with say Cure Light wounds, at caster level 5 to heal (1d8+5)*2+sneak attack? Weird concept I know, but I want some feedback. Hmm, against undead yes but can't sneak attack. Hmm, its too abuseable though.
God of Slivers 02-15-05, 09:57 PM	If you can crit with an inflict you can crit with a cure. In fact you can crit with any spell that requrires an attack roll, even disintigrate. :D
GoodTeletubby 02-15-05, 10:41 PM	problem being that a cure spell doesn't do damage, so you don't get any extra effects, unless you're hitting undead, and in that case, they're immune to crits, so you're SOL
Nom 02-15-05, 11:00 PM	Short answer: no. Elaboration: Firstly, it's only a touch attack if the target is unwilling (PH pg 314). Secondly, a critical hit only allows you to double "damage" (PH pg 306), not double effect. If it's not considered damage, it's not doubled, unless explicitly stated (eg a monster's energy drain attack, MM pg 308).
cwslyclgh 02-16-05, 12:15 AM	Nom is right
Meta_FR_DM 02-16-05, 02:04 AM	I think this is a fun one to ponder. For me it all comes down to the basics: if you're not doing damage, you're not going to have a shot a dealing a critical hit. But I think that it's OK for DMs to house rule otherwise. Maybe establish that touching an ally is automatic (so you keep to the standard rule for touch spells), but still call for two rolls (one to confirm a threat, then one to confirm a critical) in order to continue keeping things within the rules, this time for producing critical hits. Watcha think? :cool:
Nom 02-16-05, 04:09 AM	But I think that it's OK for DMs to house rule otherwise. Maybe establish that touching an ally is automatic (so you keep to the standard rule for touch spells), but still call for two rolls (one to confirm a threat, then one to confirm a critical) in order to continue keeping things within the rules, this time for producing critical hits."Hold on, let me go to sleep before you try to heal me, so that I count as helpless and you've got a better chance to crit". The problem isn't game balance; healing is assumed to be pretty easy to come by. The problem is that the mechanics for applying it will inevitably result in nonsensical situations. For it to be workable, you need to completely overhaul the mechanics. Or use a different mechanic, but then it's not really a "critical hit". Side comment: A similar problem occurs when applying "critical hit" mechanics to fumbles. A mechanic that works in a disadvantageous situation doesn't necessarily work equivalently in an advantageous situation, or vice versa, as the cost-benefit analysis is often not reversible.
Andarious 02-16-05, 08:09 AM	Healingis basically Negative damage, it's not called that, but it's negative harm right? I dunno seems to me that's what it is. At least against positive or negative energy creatures I'd say it all works that way (the ones that arn't immune to percision damage). My only two arguements are that people are willing to let you heal them somewhere vital... and harm spells can benefit from percision. Why not heals? In that case you can crit a sneak attack harm for 300+a number of d6 as a rogue/cleric hybrid prestiege like the black flame zealot with CL 15. After that the good cleric has a really hard time repairing any damage if they can't do the same.
Nyferto 02-16-05, 09:35 AM	There's no such thing as Negative Damage, it heals HP and you can't normally crit anything you could hurt with it. Even if you could crit with it, you'd do positive energy damage (see positive energy planes), and end up killing people with your cures, which isn't that bad a re-work.
tarkin 02-16-05, 10:23 AM	As others have said, the answer is no, crits do not increase healing. Basically it works like this: "Crit" is the luckyness/well aimed ness, of hitting a specific part of the body that is vunerable to damage. Simplest example of this is kicking a guy in the nuts. But part of the magic of healing is that it automatically goes to the part of the body that is damaged. I.E. If you someone's arm, then the Healing is applied to their arm, even if you are touching their leg. So aiming healing to a particularly needfull part of the body does not do anything "extra". Note, this also applies to spells/weapons that do damage and heal you. I.E. When you use Vampiric Touch and you get a critical hit, while you do extra damage, you yourself do NOT get extra healing.
Santrilla 02-16-05, 11:15 AM	I've always considered cure spells as effectively speeding up the body's repair cells. Over time, the body will automatically staunch the flow of blood, fuse broken bones and heal scars. Cure spells make this happen at an increased rate, and higher power spells make it happen faster. From this viewpoint, Cure is a spell that affects the whole body at the same time, rather than a specific part. It's not an attack. Neither are Inflict spells. No matter where you touch someone, as long as you do touch them, the positive/negative energy is channelled into them. So critical hits do nothing for Cures. (I'd houserule that neither do inflicts, but that's a personal touch.) EDIT: Thinking about it, maybe negative energy works in a different way. It's a focused area of molecular destruction, so the damage occurs where the spell lands.
Andarious 02-16-05, 08:01 PM	So looking at it... Harm and the Inflict spells are suposed to do exactly the opsite of what a healing spell does. Therefore percision does NOT help a harm spell either?
Meta_FR_DM 02-16-05, 08:45 PM	"Hold on, let me go to sleep before you try to heal me, so that I count as helpless and you've got a better chance to crit". On second thought, that's not as absurd as it sounds...if you're using the House Rule. You could justify it by saying that when one sleeps one is more likely to be more receptive (or vulnerable, if you prefer) to certain kinds of magic, like healing. Isn't wrapping brains around new ways of thinking fun? :) Dave -my brain is shaped funny- M.
Andarious 02-16-05, 09:56 PM	I think in my game how I'm going to work this is that neither inflict or cure spells can critical/sneak attack etc... however I think I might try and make a balanced set of prestiege classes that can. The Ninja Medic and Jouken (Gentle Fist). I watch too much Naruto I think... but they'll both have their fair share of cool without being too overgunned.
Meta_FR_DM 02-17-05, 12:16 AM	Sounds cool to me! What is Naruto?
Andarious 02-17-05, 08:28 AM	Naruto is an Anime, so fresh off the boat it technically hasn't even gotten on the boat yet. I'm gonna post two prestiege classes, try your best to break them using nothing but Core D&D material, and WoTC published 3.5 source material (any of the Complete Broken books, Complete Adventurer etc...) First a pretense to get over Touch attacks and Allies: Allies are considered flat footed against each others touch attacks unless they choose not to be. They may consider themselves helpless to recieve an attack, however in doing so they provoke an attack of opprotunity.
Andarious 02-17-05, 08:31 AM	Most Ninja Medics are Ninja/Clerics, although some may be Ninja/Druids or even Rogue/Clerics. Rogue/Druid is less common and the least common ninja medics are multiclassed bards. Ninja Medic Requirements Heal 8 ranks Spellcasting: Ability to cast cure serious wounds Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike Sneak attack: 2d6 Class Features Rogue BAB Good Ref and Will HD d6 6+int skills/level Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Tumble Monk Like AC Bonus(Ex) (Levels in Ninja medic stack with monk or ninja levels to determine AC bonus by level. If a Ninja Medic is not a monk or ninja treat them as a monk of their Ninja Medic level for AC bonus.) Bonus Feat at first level (Augment Healing, found in complete divine) Percise Treatment(Ex): At level 2 a Ninja Medic may add her sneak attack dice and any other applicable percision based damage (favored enimy for example) to the results of all touch ranged Conjuration [Healing] spells. A Ninja Medic can also critical any touch ranged Conjuration [Healing] spell. Caster Level Increase: +1 caster level@ 2,4,6,8,10 Sneak Attack(Ex): +1d6@ 3, 6, 9 Healing Hands(Ex): Once per round, a Ninja Medic of 4th level may quicken a Conjuration [Healing] spell that has a range of Touch with no adjustment to the spells level. Rescusitate(Ex): At 5th level as a full round action that provokes an attack of oprotunit, a Ninja medic may cast a conjuration healing spell and deliver it to an ally, automatically healing double the normal amount before percision based damage is applied (This is effectively a coup de grace.) Touch of Life(Ex): At 8th level a Ninja medic can perform a resuscitation as a standard action. Everflowing Life(Su): A 10th level Ninja Medic gains a touch attack that heals 1 hit point (As a cure minor wounds). This ability is surpressed at will. The last ability is the most potentially broken... but with the slow progression in sneak attack dice, and the low critical rate, I think it should be fine.
Andarious 02-17-05, 08:36 AM	Jouken are most frequently Ninja/Clerics, the next most frequent are Rogue/Clerics, all others are extremely rare. Jouken (Gentle Fist) Requirements Heal 8 ranks Spellcasting: Ability to cast inflict serious wounds Feats: Improved unarmed strike Sneak Attack: 2d6 Class Features Rogue BAB Good Ref and Will HD: d6 6+ int skills/level Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Tumble Monk Like AC Bonus(Ex) (Levels in Jouken stack with monk or ninja levels to determine AC bonus by level. If a Jouken is not a monk or ninja treat them as a monk of their Jouken level for AC bonus.) Bonus Feat at first level (Stunning Fist) (1 use/day/Jouken Level, as monk) Percise Infliction(Ex): A Jouken may add her sneak attack dice and any other applicable percision based damage (favored enimy for example) to the results of all touch ranged inflict or harm spells. A Jouken may also critical a harm spell like any other touch ranged spell which deals damage. Caster Level Increase: 2,4,6,8,10 Sneak attack(Ex): +1d6 @3, 6, 9 Gentle Fist(Ex): Once per round, a Jouken of 4th level may quicken a Touch range Inflict spell with no adjustment to the spells level. Gentle coup de grace(Ex): At 5th level as a full round action that provokes an attack of oprotunity, you my deal a coup de grace against a helpless foe using an inflict or harm spell that you cast. That spell deals damage as any coup de grace would, double damage plust sneak attack. Touch of Death(Ex): A Jouken of 8th level may deliver a coup de grace with an inflict spell as a standard action. However the jouken still provokes an attack of oprotunity. Everflowing Death(Su): At 10th level a Jouken gains a touch attack that causes 1 point of negative energy damage. (As inflict minor wounds, but on all touch attacks). This ability is supressed at will. I made both of these over the span of an hour or two, so try and catch me on some continouty errors, bad wording etc.